Yes indeed MJRHI agree, religion is the culprit that causes this mix of old and new.mjrhealth said:
Why Do Christians Not Honor The Sabbath?
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Neither you nor Axehead are speaking for the majority of Christendom. Most would not know what you're talking about and they would CERTAINLY NOT offer your explanations as to why they don't keep the Sabbath if asked. Again I need to emphasize the fact that the overwhelming majority of Christians BELIEVE that they ARE keeping the Sabbath every Sunday. To them keeping the Sabbath as per scripture is important ...shame about the wrong day. Most Christians are sheep. They believe what they hear without any serious personal study of a particular subject. They regurgitate the beliefs of others that they have absorbed like sponges for pretty well all of their lives. Most believe that Monday is the first day of the week and Sunday is the seventh. A number are actually shocked when they look at their calendar and see that SUNDAY is the first day of the week and SATURDAY is the seventh. To be sure, many calendars have been changed in recent times to accomodate the 7th-day Sunday. This kinda messes up the German calendar where Mittwoch (mid-week or Wednesday) is the name for 'middle of the week'. A number of languages even call Saturday "Sabbath", i.e. Saturday is Sabbaton in Greek. A one time Greek/Australian friend of mine said: "Just shows how dumb the Greeks are, their word for Saturday is 'Sabbath' and yet they still think that Sunday is the scriptural Sabbath."mjrhealth said:
Anyway, I can't see why keeping Saturday is seen to be a return to 'the old' and therefore considered to be a 'yoke to the law' while keeping Sunday as most Christians do is seen to be 'the new' and therefore 'the freedom from bondage of the law' as found in Christ. It doesn't make a lick of sense. I don't know, perhaps I think too much . . .
In real simple terms. they have being indocrinated into religion,they get told what to believe, they are told that God speaks to no one but the clergy they are lied to and they are happy. God is not real to them Jesus is a story character in a book, the Holy Spirit nothing more than there own thoughts, they will not go to Jesus and learn from Him, its that simple.
In all is Love
In all is Love
[SIZE=medium]I fully believe we should all keep all Sabbath, but can never get answers from those that believe in Saturday worship only the answers to my questions: [/SIZE]KCKID said:
- [SIZE=medium]Is a Sabbath a Saturday or is Saturday a Sabbath with other days also Sabbaths like Passover and the day of Atonement and every day in the year of Jubilee? [/SIZE]
- [SIZE=medium]Are Christians today to be like the regular Jews of the Old Testament or are we to be like the priests of the Old Testament?[/SIZE]
- [SIZE=medium]Are Christians today to be that nation of priests (Ex. 19:6, 1 Peter 2:9) and not just a Jewish like nation?[/SIZE]
- [SIZE=medium]Did the Priests offer up sacrifices on the Sabbaths and if so were the Priests keeping the Sabbath Rest?[/SIZE]
- [SIZE=medium]For the Priests what is the Sabbath Rest and so what is the Sabbath Rest to be for Christians? [/SIZE]
- [SIZE=medium]Is worship to God “work” by God’s definition?[/SIZE]
- [SIZE=medium]We know van worship is offering up to God obedience to man’s commands, so could righteous worship be offering up to God obedience to God’s commands?[/SIZE]
- [SIZE=medium]If Christians are Priests, the temple of God, carrying the alter with them (cross), and constantly offering up themselves as a living sacrifice: When are Christian’s not worshipping and should they ever stop???[/SIZE]
- [SIZE=medium]Did Christ expand the Old Testament commands to include our thoughts and lots more actions? [/SIZE]
- [SIZE=medium]Some of the Jewish scholars prior to Christ seemed to have discussed (records are not perfect on this) that there was a coming “Age of Jubilee”, do you see that description fitting the Christian Dispensation we are part of?[/SIZE]
Here's my two cents, dear bling.bling said:
1) Saturday is THE Sabbath Day, as that is what it was called before being referred to as "Saturday". No, we are not to keep things like the Day of Atonement. Those were types, those were shadows to come (hence, not being placed WITHIN the moral law).
2) Christians today are to be like your "equal" in the OT, is the only way I can explain it. Do you Pastor or preach? That's your duty on the Sabbath. Are you just a evangelist? Listen to your Pastor (and probably a good idea to search the Scriptures after that).
3) Kind of answered in number 2. But if not, please tell me.
4) Priests ARE keeping the Sabbath Rest when killing their sacrifices. This is holy work (not work of a secular nature in the least bit), so this is allowed. It's like going to the mall simply to hand out tracts on the Sabbath. That is Holy Work, much like street preaching. Completely fine.
5) Priests? Do you mean like Pastors and Christians? Pastors do their Holy Work on the Sabbath Day, like the Priests of old. The flock generally doesn't have that type of holy work to do on the Sabbath Day.
6) Remember, the commandment specifies us not to work. But it also specifies to keep the day holy. No contradiction, but an understanding of what God means when He says "Do not work on this day." This refers to work of a secular nature.
7) I am not understanding fully what you are asking here.
8) Christians are not always "worshipping" God. They may be being obedient, and doing things which GLORIFY their Father, but it is IMPOSSIBLE, to worship God, all day, everyday (I speak in terms of Sabbath Keeping. Ie. not doing any secular work ever at all, not even cleaning your house, etc. Impossible to do so)
9) Christ stopped the Jews from being so narrowminded in their views of the Sabbath. They made obeying that law a CHORE, instead of a joy. Christ merely showed, picking an apple and eating it is in no form work. But, if you were a farmer, etc. and you always picked apples to bring them back to the house as work, to bring in food, THEN you would have a problem. It's not one measly apple you'd be bringing, you'd be bringing many, sort of like harvest time. He showed that we had a lot more freedom in the day, then most make it out to be (ie. some try to say you cannot start a fire. Wrong. The emphasis was on work. It's because trying to do such a task would take taking an axe, or similar like tool, then finding the wood, then chopping it, and then bringing it back, and then setting it up, and then trying to start a fire. This could take anywhere from 45 minutes to an hour! That is work. Nowadays? Flick a switch. No work involved. And God clearly would not have had a problem with them trying to keep warm on a very cold night.)
10) No idea.
You have to understand the point of the Sabbath. Get your mind off all your earthly work, and come back into full communion for a full day. There are restrictions, yes. But this is all for your BENEFIT. And while you may be able to work and pray to God, you aren't keeping that day "holy", because your job is not "holy", though necessary.
Well, to believe that God speaks to no one but the clergy would be a ridiculous lie to tell, but I do believe what you are saying about that is true. Yes, these are desperate times.mjrhealth said:
But what you have to understand, is what the BIBLE does say. I left my past church because of what the Bible said, and they refused to do.
We know THESE are the last days. But we also know God has people in these last days. We are given clues in Scripture as to finding out which people are the ones who really understand. They have faith in Jesus, and keep the commandments of God (Revelation 14:12). We know Satan is only severely angry with those who again KEEP GOD'S COMMANDMENTS, and because they have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17). What is the Testimony of Jesus Christ? It is the Spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10). They understand biblically how to search things out in prophecy. They have an uncanny ability to point out to you what prophecy is saying. Not because of who THEY ARE, but because of who their GOD IS. Because of how much pastors these days give their own interpretations, they can easily prove these pastors wrong.
This is part of why I believe what I believe about keeping all 10 Commandments. The Bible clearly says all throughout itself that works never save you. In the OT it says, THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH. (Habakkuk 2:4). Remember ABRAHAM believed God, and it was counted to him towards righteousness. Never was keeping the 10 Commandments a "work" to get you into heaven. No one would have ever made it if it was. The 10 Commandments, the Moral Law, is simply what one MUST do. And I believe that James made it clear, when he said if you keep the entire law, yet offend in ONE POINT, you are GUILTY of all. (James 2:10). The Sabbath is ONE OF THOSE POINTS. And yes, it IS a moral law. It is the only one that specifically tells you to BE HOLY. It is the only one also, that encourages us to REMEMBER it. Why? Well, God, clearly peering into the future and seeing how trashed his commandments would be, put this little word in. It gives God the advantage over all the adversaries.
The only Moral Law God clearly puts "Remember" in, we're supposed to toss it away and say, "Forget it"?
And that my friends, is a contradiction, between man's words, and God's Word.
But you see Christ fullfiilled all teh comanments in one,
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
See in this one commandment one fullfills all teh rest. As long as you try to keep teh ten commandments you will fail we all do that is why we have grace. The law convicts you of sin that is what it does, but in Christ we are no longer under that law so no longer does it make us feel condemned, if it does than you are not under grace but the law, and teh law only leads to judgement and death.
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
See even in the last, teh man had said he had kept the ten comandments yet Christ told him if you want to be perfect, give up everything and follow me. The law does nothing it perfects no one.
In All His Love
Joh 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
See in this one commandment one fullfills all teh rest. As long as you try to keep teh ten commandments you will fail we all do that is why we have grace. The law convicts you of sin that is what it does, but in Christ we are no longer under that law so no longer does it make us feel condemned, if it does than you are not under grace but the law, and teh law only leads to judgement and death.
Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
See even in the last, teh man had said he had kept the ten comandments yet Christ told him if you want to be perfect, give up everything and follow me. The law does nothing it perfects no one.
In All His Love
So, are you saying that ...whether one honors the biblical Sabbath or has been mislead with the bogus RCC 'sabbath' and honors Sunday ...BOTH are in the wrong because both feel that they are being obedient to God and obedience to God is tantamount to being bound by the law? To repeat ...are you saying that 'obedience' equates to wrongfully keeping 'the law' that was abolished at the cross? I don't know about anyone else but I'm not following you.
Many in Christendom are not saved, do not have the Spirit of God and consequently all is "religion" to them.
They don't understand that worship is not "singing songs in church". Worship is our entire life, lived before The Lord, 24x7x365. (Rom 12:1).
If one does not understand that, they will spend their lives in long, drawn out debates on "what is the most important day of the week to God".
They will never understand that the "Biblical Sabbath" is Jesus Christ.
Axehead
They don't understand that worship is not "singing songs in church". Worship is our entire life, lived before The Lord, 24x7x365. (Rom 12:1).
If one does not understand that, they will spend their lives in long, drawn out debates on "what is the most important day of the week to God".
They will never understand that the "Biblical Sabbath" is Jesus Christ.
Axehead
1.Raeneske said:
[SIZE=medium]I have no problem with Saturday being a Sabbath Day, but just because in English we started calling the seventh day of the week “Saturday” does not automatically make it the only “Sabbath Day”. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Why is Passover, Day of Atonement, the whole year of Jubilee all “Shadows” and the Saturday Sabbath not a Shadow also, since it is part of the Law? [/SIZE]
2.
[SIZE=medium]I am sorry but scriptures says: (Ex. 19:6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” And 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]All Christians are to be priests, in the Kingdom that is here and now. [/SIZE]
3.
[SIZE=medium]The answer is in two, we are not to be just “ordinary Jewish like people”, but we are to be priests. [/SIZE]
4.
[SIZE=medium]YES, priests kept the Sabbath rest even though they had more to “do” on Saturday then the other days of the week since they did all the same things they had been doing and more. Worship is not work and the priests were worshipping all the time, so they were not working. Worship is restful. [/SIZE]
5.
[SIZE=medium]Sorry today “Pastors” are not the “only priests like people in this age”, since every Christian is to be the priests of this age. [/SIZE]
6.
[SIZE=medium]Work by God’s definition seems to be doing stuff for self-interest and in contrast to doing stuff for God specifically. [/SIZE]
7.
[SIZE=medium]I am suggesting the definition of righteous worship is the contradiction to van worship: righteous worship be offering up to God obedience to God’s commands?[/SIZE]
8.
[SIZE=medium]When is it “OK” to lay your cross down? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]When is it “OK” to stop offering yourself up as a living sacrifice?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]When is it “OK” to not be in fellowship with God?[/SIZE]
10.
[SIZE=medium]I am of the opinion that we are in the “Age of Jubilee” (Every day is a Sabbath) the Jewish scholars of the first century were gleaming from the OT prophecies. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]To suggest today we just “Sabbath Rest” one day a week is to suggest the other 6 days are ours? [/SIZE]
1) Because those are shadows, and not part of the Moral Law, which shall last throughout eternity.bling said:
2) My emphasis was generally on the difference between Pastors, and the normal Evangelist Christian.
3) Again, my emphasis is on the difference between Pastoral Work, and the normal evangelistic work every Christian is to be a part of.
4) Yes, the Priests had more to do than the rest. But this was because holy work never ceases. And as stated in my previous post, holy work is of a completely different manner, than secular work.
5) My point is to point out the difference, between Pastoral Work, and the normal evangelistic work for a Christian. My terminology may be slightly off, but I'm emphasizing, again, the difference between Pastoral work, and the work for a normal evangelistic Christian.
6) That's interesting. I don't know if I can one hundred percent agree with that. But I do know that God does not want us doing our normal things on this day, as per Isaiah 58.
7) Righteous worship and vain worship... So doing what man says you must do vs. what God says you must do? I assume it would be vain worship?
8) I wouldn't really say its okay, I'd just say there are times when you are not doing those things, because I'm not %100 sure in every situation you would be doing these things all the time.
9) ...
10) That is an impossibility. If such was their belief, then there's a possibility they themselves, misunderstood the Sabbath Day. You would never be able to do a single secular thing, or even clean your house, clothes, etc. for that matter.
Well it's interesting, God says He gives us 6 days to do our labour. Then He says the Seventh Day is His, which is why we do what HE wants on that day. This does not suggest we never, pray, or worship, etc. on other days. It simply dictates that one entire day is devoted to God -- you are estranged from all secular manner of work.
- Because those are shadows, and not part of the Moral Law, which shall last throughout eternity.
[SIZE=medium]Col. 2: 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So according to Paul the Sabbath days specifically were shadows. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]2) My emphasis was generally on the difference between Pastors, and the normal Evangelist Christian.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Do you agree: “All Christians are to be priests, in the Kingdom that is here and now?”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]5) My point is to point out the difference, between Pastoral Work, and the normal evangelistic work for a Christian. My terminology may be slightly off, but I'm emphasizing, again, the difference between Pastoral work, and the work for a normal evangelistic Christian.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Should all “work” of Christians whether “pastoral” or “normal” be in obedience to God’s commands and thus be offered up to God as worship? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]6) That's interesting. I don't know if I can one hundred percent agree with that. But I do know that God does not want us doing our normal things on this day, as per Isaiah 58.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]So what makes you think God wants us to be satisfying “self-interest” on Monday? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]7) Righteous worship and vain worship... So doing what man says you must do vs. what God says you must do? I assume it would be vain worship?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Offering up to God, as worship, obedience to the commandments of men is van worship and is in contrast to righteous worship. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]8) I wouldn't really say its okay, I'd just say there are times when you are not doing those things, because I'm not %100 sure in every situation you would be doing these things all the time. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]If it is never “OK” to stop offering yourself as a living sacrifice to God (be actively in obedience and offering that obedience up to God as worship), then would it be wrong not to (a sin)? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]9) ...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]10) That is an impossibility. If such was their belief, then there's a possibility they themselves, misunderstood the Sabbath Day. You would never be able to do a single secular thing, or even clean your house, clothes, etc. for that matter. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] Well it's interesting, God says He gives us 6 days to do our labour. Then He says the Seventh Day is His, which is why we do what HE wants on that day. This does not suggest we never, pray, or worship, etc. on other days. It simply dictates that one entire day is devoted to God -- you are estranged from all secular manner of work.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]God may have liked and said prior to the Ten Commandments to set the Jews up as a nation of priests, but they were way to rebellious and it could never work under the written “Law” type relationship. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]BUT, as Christians we all now have: the indwelling Holy Spirit, the example Christ set and the Love both Christ and God showed for us with the cross. Just as, a human with Deity living inside of Him (Christ) was is constant worship, we with Deity inside of us can be in constant worship, even though we are doing what the world may perceive as “secular work”. We can and hopefully are doing exactly what Christ would be doing in our situation for the next 60 seconds and the 60 seconds after that and so on. Just as Christ constantly mentored the small group around Him as He moved through the world, we are allowing Christ in us to constantly mentoring the small group of seekers around us. [/SIZE]
Raeneske said:
When some read in the New Testament about sabbath days that were shadows of the body of Christ and that passed away at the cross, they become confused and declare they mean the weekly Sabbath. They greatly err and lead many uninformed people into error. Let's turn to Colossians 2:14-17 and read about the abolition of these sabbath days that were in the law and that enjoined meat offerings, drink offerings, new moons, and festivals: "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; ... let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday [a feast day, A.S.V.], or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days, which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."bling said:
There was nothing in the Ten Commandments about meats, drinks, new moons, sabbath days (plural), or feast days. All these were in the law which the Lord told Moses to command to the people. The weekly Sabbath is not mentioned in these texts. Paul says plainly that he is speaking of "sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come," and not of the weekly Sabbath which was a memorial of something that happened in the past at creation. The 4th commandment does not tell us to keep the 7th-day as a type of something to come. It says: "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy ...For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it." There is all the difference in the world between a typical shadow and a memorial. A shadow points forward, and a memorial points backward. The contrast is as distinct as that between night and day. And to show that He never had the weekly Sabbath in mind, Paul distinctly mentioned "sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come." Of course the word "days" in this text (Colossians 2:14-17) is supplied, but this is justified by the fact that the word "sabbath" in the Greek is in the plural. Anyone may confirm this by consulting any Greek lexicon.
Where this idea of Christ having become the Christian "Sabbath" comes from I have no idea but it's not scriptural. If God's 7th-day Sabbath had not been abrogated and replaced with man's Sunday such a preposterous idea would never have been invented.
You're just speaking from a position of unbelief and ignorance. Everything in the old covenant was a shadow. The law was a shadow. The 4th commandment was a shadow. They all point to the reality, who is Christ.KCKID said:
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Hebrews 10:1
First you belittle me for not believing as you believe. Then you say that everything in the old covenant was a shadow. THEN you say that the 4th-command was ALSO a shadow. You obviously did not read my above post. If the 4th-command was a shadow then so too were the commands referring to murder, adultery, theft, etc. ALSO the commands that pertain to having no other gods. Were THEY shadows?ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Read what Hebrews 10:1 says: the law was a shadow of coming things. Christ has come. All of the law was a shadow, faith in Christ is the new law. With a change of covenants, a change of law also occurs.KCKID said:
Read what 1 John 2:4 says: Whoever says, "I know Him," but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. Are you a liar, CRFTD?ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
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