Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?

[Hillsage]

I think both of these aspects can be true. Spiritual death and access of the enemy to our minds.

OK

If a person needs deliverance from demons, how many spirits are present?
The demoniac said, "My name is Legion, for we are many." (from memory)

I believe that the one named Legion was the 'strongman' spirit. And the name Legion represented the authority level of that rank.

Can a Christian have a demon? Yes, I believe so. I had a least one cast out.

/

Yes, I too have gone through a few deliverance conferences. But I also have dealt with some by 'starving them out' / "fleeing temptation" and some by 'crowding them out' "coming to the light".

Why does a difference in doctrinal opinion on non-essentials amount to "lies" by the other?

/ cc: @WalkInLight

I'm not saying a 'doctrinal difference' based upon a doctrine being 'essential' or 'non-essential', determines something as a lie. But calling those theologians "liars", was admittedly harsh, and I'm sorry. I still think they are deceived and therefore deceiving others.

So, those bible translating theologians being untrue still stands IMO,. That's why I presented those 4 scriptures, showing how they were all over the board with their BIBLICAL interpretations. That was the point I was trying to show. I was also hoping some of you guys would see and agree...but nothing. It remains just a 'point' which no one has even addressed. I searched hard for better understanding of the differences between 'Iniquity, transgressions and sins'. As well as how those 3 terms relate to the total triune human beings spirit, soul or body....YES...that is in my opinion.

I was starting to form my own opinions, from personal study, long ago. Then, in my early forum years, I even asked those who were in seminary what they were taught. One student, haughtily told me that "WE were taught that 'Iniquity, transgressions and sins'. are just a 'heap-ing of terms', and they all just mean the same thing...SIN. I, assuredly, told him I live in 'cattle country' and when I see a 'heap', I like to see what that stinkin 'heap' is really full of. That's when I quoted 'them' a verse with all three terms in it and only one is sin. They basically told me that scripture is just being REDUNDANT, and I think it is just being REVEALING....to one who has EYES TO SEE and is willing to look/listen to the spirit of truth and plum the depths of scripture.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
If a person needs deliverance from demons, how many spirits are present?
The demoniac said, "My name is Legion, for we are many." (from memory)

I believe that the one named Legion was the 'strongman' spirit. And the name Legion represented the authority level of that rank.

That may be.
But there are other indications that there were many demons present. IMHO
"My name is Legion, for we are many. ... send us into that herd of swine." (from memory)
The whole herd ran down to the sea and drowned. How many demons to do that?

/

 

[WalkInLight]

So all "spiritually alive" REALLY means is "having a renewed relationship with God"? That's it?

I guess I was expecting something more dramatic.

What is the difference between two strangers who meet but never connect, agree or like one another and two good friends who
literally enjoy each others company and share what is on their hearts with one another?

Jesus used the term born of the Spirit. The gifts of the spirit and the Holy Spirit speaking from our hearts to God
in words of love, worship and praise. It is possible that this is impossible without being born of the Spirit, but
we have no objectivity. Like a child does not know the full complexity of physical life, but rather are passengers
and partakers, we also are partakers in Christ of this loving relationship.

Paul called us temples of God, indwelt with the Holy Spirit. In the worlds eyes we are deluded and lost in fables,
while in Christ we are loved and cherished as we love and cherish Jesus.

This communion is the deepest relationship anyone can ever have, so I would not describe it as renewed but
rather as beginning and eternal, never to perish or end.

And to give more insight further, our friend, our Lord, our King is God. He has exalted us to where He is.
Like a child taken to work, we do not have His insight or authority, but He has brought us home.

God bless you

 

[Hillsage]

St. SteVen said:
If a person needs deliverance from demons, how many spirits are present?
The demoniac said, "My name is Legion, for we are many." (from memory)

Yes, I too believe that there were many demons. But when the demoniac spoke, the words were from the 'strongman' who was the head demon/evil spirit of the thousands in the demoniac. But 'Legion' simply was a rank. Just like MAJOR commands a 1000 (?) and COLONEL commands 5,000 (?). But the lower ranks don't have the power to kill, only to increasingly torture.

That may be.
But there are other indications that there were many demons present. IMHO
"My name is Legion, for we are many. ... send us into that herd of swine." (from memory)
The whole herd ran down to the sea and drowned. How many demons to do that?

/

Don't know how many in each pig would be required for a pig to commit suicide. Remember a demon's end goal is "rob, kill, destroy". I don't think you get a thousand demons at a time. I think a temptation gets his foot in your door. Committing the temptation, is the sin and legal right for a demon to enter. But did you get addicted to 'whatever' with the first 'hit' or 'high' in your past, whether cigarettes or pot or alcohol? I didn't IMO.

I think there is temptation leading to a first sin, subsequent temptations and sins leading to 'demonic oppression' as your resistance is breaking down. More of same sins leads to more demons and next level of 'demonic obsession', to the same sin. But continued sin leads to 'posession' which is a state that requires intervention from ministry by someone who has the authority to do so. I personally
think that is the level where 'your will' has been totally taken captive by the work and spiritual influence of many demons, but only in whatever area of 'sin-life' they are consigned to work in. And with increases come higher demons in authority over the lower ones. (Like in the Screwtape letters. The head demon was Screwtape, and Wormwood was the underling in that military analogy).

OK, were off the reservation topic wise.

@St. SteVen

 

[St. SteVen]

@St. SteVen

Good job on the footnote alert tag.
However, it is redundant on a post where you have already quoted my post.
Because I get an alert for that already.

I usually use the footnote alert tag for posts that were a quote of someone else.
But I want the member I alerted to be aware of what I had posted, as an FYI
or a request for a reply. Like this. (watch for Likes)

@Lambano @quietthinker Please rate this post, thanks.

 

[Lambano]

I'm seeing a couple radically different perspectives here.

One side sees spiritual rebirth as a renewed relationship with God. Relationships can be broken again.

The other side sees it as something effectively tangible being born of "ἀφθάρτου σπορᾶς" ("incorruptible spores", First Pete 1:23). Or "imperishable", to tie this back to OSAS, the topic of this thread.

 

[St. SteVen]

I'm seeing a couple radically different perspectives here.

One side sees spiritual rebirth as a renewed relationship with God. Relationships can be broken again.

The other side sees it as something effectively tangible being born of "ἀφθάρτου σπορᾶς" ("incorruptible spores", First Pete 1:23). Or "imperishable", to tie this back to OSAS, the topic of this thread.

Which perspective resonates best with you?
And is that because of religious upbringing? (comfort zone)
Or another reason? (spiritual connection) ???

/

 

[Lambano]

Which perspective resonates best with you?
And is that because of religious upbringing? (comfort zone)
Or another reason? (spiritual connection) ???

/

The "tangible" perspective carries too much baggage. The expectation that you'll have some dramatic "born again" experience to testify to. The expectation that you'll live a perfectly sinless life afterwards. I can't relate to that.

 

[St. SteVen]

The "tangible" perspective carries too much baggage. The expectation that you'll have some dramatic "born again" experience to testify to. The expectation that you'll live a perfectly sinless life afterwards. I can't relate to that.

My wife and I have a similar difference. (oxymoron?) - LOL
I remember a specific point in time. For her it was a gradual thing over time.
And my specific experience didn't seem all that dramatic at the time.
And certainly didn't manifest in "a perfectly sinless life afterwards".


Then you must prefer this perspective. (by process of elimination) ???

One side sees spiritual rebirth as a renewed relationship with God. Relationships can be broken again.

And broken relationships can be healed/repaired. I don't believe God cuts us off if we fall away.
Even though the other side can muster a number of scriptures to defend the position that he does,
Several scriptures support Eternal Security as well. So... Eternal Insecurity is an option. - LOL

/

 

[Taken]

[B}Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?[/B]

I would say Lack of Understanding.

God IS a “giver and a taker”.
God gives “temporary life” and takes “temporary iife”.

Salvation is an Offering from God for a man
TO Keep his Soul Life Forever…
AND
TO Take, Have, Receive his Spirit Life Forever…
AND
To Wait, patiently, for his new Sinless, glorified, body to be in the future, Manifested.

For 4,000 years….during a mans natural life time…His Options were:
* while natural alive, the man coud choose to be WITH God.
(Meaning, believing, obedient per Laws, Statutes, Precepts…
~ He could falter, be forgiven, by God for sins, and by men for sins, per the law and for trespasses per the law and precepts.
~ His hope to BE forgiven by God, by a man, were detailed within the law itself.
A SIN Altar Offering to God…
A SIN / punishment, A Trespass punishment with compensation to the man so harmed.

Point being….God would remain WITH such man.
Point being…IF and WHEN the man disregarded the Law, Statutes, Precepts which the man Agreed to obey…
A CHANGE would Occur…
The man would No long be considered WITH God and in-turn God would Not be WITH that man

***
Ex 11:
[8] And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do…

Neh 9:
[14] And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

***

A BODILY DEATH MUST occur, BEFORE God CAN, “save” a soul or “quicken” (birth again) a mans spirit., and BEFORE a mans body can be “raised “ anew/sinless

Historically it is easy to comprehend WHEN individual men were WITH God and God WITH them and when men were NOT WITH God and God NOT WITHmen.

To this DAY, THAT ^ has not changed.
Men CAN be Faithful to the moment of thier Physical bodily Death
(Which IS a man Bodily Dying while effectively Pledging their bodily Life unto Death FOR their belief and love of God) and at THAT TIME, receive salvation of their soul, and quickening of their spirit, and be on Gods “rolls” to be Raised up in a new glorified sinless body, and WITH God forever.

per the Last 2,000 years WHAT HAS CHANGED, IS Gods Offering expressly, By, Through, Of….Christ the Lord Jesus…
IS a what is called a man’s agreeing, testifying, pledging his bodily life unto the Lord God as a living sacrifice…
By, Through, Of being CrUCIFIED WITH CHRIST….
Which IS EFFECTED, by an individual man’s own CHOICE, own BELIEF in his Heart, own confessing TESTIMONY, effectively Pledging his own body ONCE unto ONLY, Always and Forever the Lord God.
AND…of course, the ALL KNOWING Lord God, VERIFYING that individual’s Confession IS TRUE.

*** Romans 12:
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

THAT ^ changes the whole scenario….of a man being with God, without God, with God, and the reciprocation of God being with a man, without a man, with a man….etc.
THAT absolutely, AS History has Revealed, can occur numerous TIMES (during a mans physical Life time .

THE scenario COMPLETELY changes IF and WHEN an individual man chooses to ACCEPT the Lord Gods Offering, to Confess their True Belief their Heart….effectively Pledging BY their own WORD, to GIVE their body unto Death for their Trust, Faith and Love of God.
RIGHT THEN, shall that individual RECEIVE…
**SAVING (salvation of his soul)
**QUICKENING (seed of God birthing their new spirit)
**Gods SPIRIT dwelling IN them…and they dwelling IN Gods SPIRIT.
**AND….bodily they continue to live, yet spiritually accounted in Gods Records as having fulfilled their bodily death requirement.

ONCE that ^^ Occurs…For the remainder of that mans Physical Life….the Lord Gods SPIRIT……WILL, SHALL, REMAIN not ONLY “WITH” that man but “IN” that man….
And thereafter….FOREVER Gods SPIRIT SHALL remain “WITH” that man…and that man SHALL forever remain “WITH” God SPIRIT.

THAT is the understanding of OSAS…
God IS Patient for men to wander back and forth in Belief.
God IS Faithful to give what He Offers to men who pledge / vow by their own Word of True Heartful Testimony according to the exact manner God Himself has provided the WAY and MEANS to receive His Offering.

ONCE … is the effect of a mans true confessions…

WITH, without, sure, unsure, maybe, maybe not, Mama wants me to, Girlfriend wants me to, looks good on a resume’, bad reputation to not be saved…..blah, blah, blah…
** .IS NOT ONCE giving a True Heartful Confession…

ONCE SAVED…God is not a LIAR, to UNDO what He Promised would be FOREVER.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Hillsage]

One side sees spiritual rebirth as a renewed relationship with God. Relationships can be broken again.

The other side sees it as something effectively tangible being born of "ἀφθάρτου σπορᾶς" ("incorruptible spores", First Pete 1:23). Or "imperishable", to tie this back to OSAS, the topic of this thread.

1PE 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed/SPORA, but of incorruptible (sperma), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed/SPERMA remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

4701 spora: a sowing, i.e. (by impl.) parentage
4690 sperma: something sown, i.e. seed (including the male "sperm"); by impl. offspring; spec. a remnant (fig. as if kept over for planting)

~The Parable of the Prodigal Son
LUK 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!...
...21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

The SON never lost his blood RELATIONSHIP with his Father, but he and the Father most certainly were DEAD in soulish FELLOWSHIP

@St. SteVen

 

[Lambano]

1JO 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed/SPERMA remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Well, I've heard people around here claim that they do not and cannot sin based on that verse. But reading it in the context of verse 2 (Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is) and the overall theme of the letter being an exhortation to not sin, I think verse 9 is saying that sinlessness is something we get when Jesus returns, but we should endeavor to live in the now the way we will be in the age to come. Yet, I'm not them; maybe they really do not sin in this age, and I am in an inferior state of existence. Just because I don't have experience with that mode of existence doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I just can't relate to it because I haven't experienced it, nor has anyone I know and trust experienced it.

 

[Hillsage]

Well, I've heard people around here claim that they do not and cannot sin based on that verse. But reading it in the context of verse 2 (Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is) and the overall theme of the letter being an exhortation to not sin, I think verse 9 is saying that sinlessness is something we get that when Jesus returns, but we should endeavor to live in the now the way we will be in the age to come. Yet, I'm not them; maybe they really do not sin in this age, and I am in an inferior state of existence. Just because I don't have experience with that mode of existence doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I just can't relate to it because I haven't experienced it, nor has anyone I know and trust experienced it.

I still think it goes back to some kind of 'application' type difference between RELATIONSHIP and FELLOWSHIP. The prodigal son did not feel "WORTHY" to be called a son....but he always was, wasn't he? Here at the beginning of 1Joh we run into the opposite of what was said in 1Joh 3.

1JO 1:6 If we say that we have FELLOWSHIP with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I know I still sin, and I know my spirit was born again and that spirit does not lead me to sin.....my sin natured flesh does.

But I know those who say they don't sin, still do. Because I've seen them do it here on the forum spitting the venom of asps at those of us who confess we sin. It is a difficult subject for sure, and has been argued for centuries.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I still think it goes back to some kind of 'application' type difference between RELATIONSHIP and FELLOWSHIP.

Can't argue with God About that, since He Has Shown me The Differences Between The Two:

God's Simple Will

Amen.