Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?

[Lambano]

Could we define our terms, please?

What does it mean to "die spiritually"?

For that matter, what does it mean to "live spiritually"?

 

[St. SteVen]

Could we define our terms, please?

What does it mean to "die spiritually"?

For that matter, what does it mean to "live spiritually"?

Few if any, seem to agree with my position, but here it is.

Two kinds of life, and two kinds of death:
1) Physical life and death
2) Spiritual life and death

Physical life is mortal. We live and we die.

Everyone born physically in Adam's race is born spiritually dead. (due to the Fall)
When we renew our lost relationship with God we are reborn spiritually.
Hence, spiritually alive. Born from above, as Jesus said.

John 1:11-13 NIV
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name,
he gave the right to become children of God—
13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision
or a husband’s will, but born of God.

/

 

[Hillsage]

I know it is controversial. So, I wasn't interesting in debating it as if there is only ONE right answer.
Are you claiming that we are NOT spiritually dead due to the Fall? (Colossians 2:13; Ephesians 2:1)

Been claiming that thing for years. So either DEBATE me or BELIEVE me Bro.

COL 2:13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Where is the qualifying word...that being "spirit"? NADA.
I don't see it, because it is even being assumed by THEOLOGIANS who don't even know the difference between

EXO 34:7 keeping steadfast love for thousands, FORGIVING INIQUITY and TRANSGRESSION and SIN,

DAN 9:24 "Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the TRANSGRESSION, (Soulish temptations) to put an end to SIN, (bodily actions) and to atone for INIQUITY (spirit tendencies),

Iniquities, transgressions, sins
nor do they understand how each pertains to the TRIUNE man
spirit, soul body

And as for the above Colossians verse, the translators are more screwed up than a soup sandwich with translations all over the place.

KJV COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your SINS and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all TRESPASSES;

NIV COL 2:13 When you were dead in your SINS and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our SINS,

NAS COL 2:13 When you were dead in your TRANSGRESSIONS and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our TRANSGRESSIONS,

This is STRONGS for every underlined word in the translations above;

3900 paraptoma: a side slip (lapse or deviation), i.e. (unintentional) error or (willful) TRANSGRESSION.

As you can see TRANSGRESSIONS relate to the SOUL of man and not his SPIRIT in my breakdown above,in my breakdown above, What does relate to body death????

NAS/RSV PSA 32:3 When I declared not my SIN, my body wasted away.
Other translations say a body word bones. The point being what did Jesus say?

LUK 24:39 .....a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

As for your Eph 2:1 verse, I can likewise dissect it the same way. But that's too much. So EARN IT to LEARN IT.

BTW: This is how to do a footnote tag to a member.

Thank you again for the I.T. work. This one I've got to remember and use.

@St. SteVen Oh yeah it works. Kind of like my theology.

 

[Hillsage]

Could we define our terms, please?

What does it mean to "die spiritually"?

For that matter, what does it mean to "live spiritually"?

If it has any application at all, it means you will die someday physically in the FLESH just like Jesus did. But nobody really KILLED Jesus. He released His spirit...the Christ spirit in Him to the Father. AND then He breathed his last breath and was JAM 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is DEAD.


Rom 8: 2* For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the sSpirit. (spirit of Christ in us, just like was in Jesus).

ROM 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
7* For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot;
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9* But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit (OF CHRIST), if in fact the Spirit of (FROM) God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Two laws....LIFE or DEATH. Be led of the holy spirit of Christ in you, align your soul with 'that spirit' and you won't commit sin and die.
But, if led to follow your 'sinful flesh' natured body, means you will then commit sin. And "sin when it matures" will lead to your body to death.

 

[Lambano]

When we renew our lost relationship with God we are reborn spiritually.

Hence, spiritually alive. Born from above, as Jesus said.

So all "spiritually alive" REALLY means is "having a renewed relationship with God"? That's it?

I guess I was expecting something more dramatic.

 

[WalkInLight]

Adam never died spiritually He walked like ENOCH walked perfectly, but Adam did so, only after committing that one sin. He walked 970 years.
Enoch walked perfectly never having lived in the Garden and therefore God took him.
Nobody lost the chance to remain in "the presence of the Lord". Not even the murderer Cain....according to SCRIPTURE.

GEN 4:16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

I don't care how many lies have been told by false teachers over the centuries. Telling us that Adam and Eve lost the presence of the Lord because of their sin. So IF that were true, how did Cain still have it ? And after Cain's mistake, it is no wonder that he taught his firstborn the evil of sin which he should have learned from his father ADAM. But at least Cain's firstborn ENOCH listened and then obeyed.

14 Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed.
15 But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if the many died through the transgression of the one man, how much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ multiply to the many!
16 And the gift is not like the one who sinned. For judgment, resulting from the one transgression, led to condemnation, but the gracious gift from the many failures led to justification.
Rom 5:14-16

Judgment came because of one transgression which led to condemnation. The transgression was Adams.

22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1 Cor 15:22

Adam brought us life and death, life we are descended from Adam, death we inherit his condemnation and judgement.
This judgement is rejection from the presence of God and eternal life.

Jesus brings us life both spiritual and physical.

49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1 Cor 15:49-50

Adam was a man who walked with God but was rejected and given a lifespan to live, to have children which in the end led to us.

Could Adam have repented of eating of the tree of knowledge? I think Adam could have repented of choosing death over trusting the Lord. But there is no record of such a thing that the Lord dictated to Moses. Genesis has only one obvious origin, Moses and the Lord.

The Lord declared He was ok to let people spread and fill the world, even if in rebellion against Him.
In the creation He made, the Lord knew some would listen, bow the knee, repent and follow. In His infinite wisdom this path was a path
that made creation worthwhile doing, because He is love in action. God bless you

 

[WalkInLight]

Another question I have is what might have happened if Adam refused to eat when Eve offered the fruit to him?

/ cc: @WalkInLight

Could Adam have refused? Adam only knew that eating would kill him. The snake questioned if this was true.
The only issue here was something valuable but unknown against a warning.

Our nature as people is to take risks and explore and doubt the outcomes we are warned about are true.
Therein lies our failing. We use understanding as a guide rather than trust and love.

So the question I would ask is could Adam have refused? I think the answer is no.

Love has its inevitable mirror image of hate. Another way of saying this is anything that exists has an alternative
which is failure of the thing itself. So a building relies on its foundations, and bad foundations cause the building
to collapse. So everything that exists has limitations and weaknesses.

Love to work means a chosen position is given up and desire and vulnerability expressed towards another while accepting rejection is
possible.

So for Adam to refuse to eat assumes Adam knew the position he had, which appears not to be the case, rather he only knew he
was in the garden with Eve and the Lord. If the Lord possessed Adam without a choice this would have been coercive behaviour,
but the tree of knowledge was the door to another life. True companionship would be when man chose from his rebellion to love
God and return to His creator.

God bless you

 

[St. SteVen]

COL 2:13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

Where is the qualifying word...that being "spirit"? NADA.
I don't see it, because it is even being assumed by THEOLOGIANS who don't even know the difference between

The word "spirit' is implied in the word "dead". Unless you believe we were physically dead in our trespasses. ???
What KIND of death is being implied here?

And as for the above Colossians verse, the translators are more screwed up than a soup sandwich with translations all over the place.

KJV COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your SINS and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all TRESPASSES;

NIV COL 2:13 When you were dead in your SINS and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our SINS,

NAS COL 2:13 When you were dead in your TRANSGRESSIONS and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our TRANSGRESSIONS,

Well... they all contain the word "dead". So, I guess you need to define it. Physical or spiritual?

The Greek actually treats "dead' as if it is physically dead.
So, I suppose it is either metaphorical, or like Abraham before Sarah bore him Isaac. (as good as dead) ???

Metaphorically dead would be a reference to spiritually dead from my perspective.

We also need to address part two of the verse. It is comparing dead and alive. You WERE dead, Christ MADE you alive.
So we also need to define "alive". Physically alive, or spiritually alive? We were dead and Christ made us physically alive?
Or... we were dead and Christ made us spiritually alive? Were you physically dead when Christ made you physically alive?

Not sure that works. Unless our being dead was mortal death, and being made alive was immortal life. ???
(mortal versus age-during - in UR terms?)

But wouldn't that be stated as in we were mortal and Christ made you immortal?
So, "mortal" = dead "immortal" = alive ??? Maybe that is what you are claiming. Not sure.
And what about this?
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable,
through the living and enduring word of God. - 1 Peter 1:23 NIV

Born again physically. or spiritually?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Reminds me of this too. Crossed over from death to life. From physical death? To what? Physical life? ???

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

COMPARE

Luke 16:26 NIV
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place,
so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

/

 

[St. SteVen]

So all "spiritually alive" REALLY means is "having a renewed relationship with God"? That's it?

Yes. It seemed obvious to me, but caused quite a stir.
Like tossing an apple at a wasp's nest. - LOL

I guess I was expecting something more dramatic.

LOL
Sorry to disappoint.

And I suppose the conversion experience of some is more dramatic than others.
If you were raised in the church, as I was, then it wasn't a HUGE deal.
Or, didn't seem like it at the time. Gave me pause later in life.
If you recall my testimony.

/

 

[Lambano]

LOL
Sorry to disappoint.

I guess I thought "spiritual" had something to do with sentient non-material entities. You know. Spirits.

And I suppose the conversion experience of some is more dramatic than others.

Well, to hear others testify....

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Another question I have is what might have happened if Adam refused to eat when Eve offered the fruit to him?

Could Adam have refused? ...

That wasn't really my question.
Thanks for your thoughtful response. You make good points.

I think they both had a choice. Though, in a sense Eve decided for them.
But at the moment Eve GAVE to Adam, he could have refused, even though she had already eaten.
If that had happened, what effect would that have had in reference to the Fall of humankind.

- Would humankind STILL be fallen due to Eve's transgression?
- Would ONLY females be fallen due to Eve's transgression?
- Would humankind NOT be fallen due to Adam's headship over his wife?

Another angle to consider... What if only Eve refused?
If she handed off the fruit and left Adam to decide.
And he did eat thereof.

Same set of questions as above, but swap Adam's name for Eve's.

/

 

[dev553344]

@Lambano the spirit is somewhat a mystery to me. As when we are babies we have spirits and when we are adults we also have spirits. There is one section that I am reminded of that the eye of the soul can become dark. And I think that is perhaps a reference to spiritual death:

Matthew 6:22-23 NKJV​

“The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

 

[St. SteVen]

I guess I thought "spiritual" had something to do with sentient non-material entities. You know. Spirits.

Do you not believe that we humans have a spirit?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 NIV
May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through.
May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

/

 

[Lambano]

the spirit is somewhat a mystery to me.

Me too.

 

[Lambano]

Do you not believe that we humans have a spirit?

Did we have one before we knew Jesus?

Do we have one now?

What's the difference between a "soul" and a "spirit"?

Genesis 41:8 says Pharaoh's spirit was troubled. Did Pharoah have a sentient, non-material aspect to his existence that was independent of his physical existence, or is "spirit" just referring to his state of mind at the time?

We take these words for granted and toss them around without considering what they actually mean.

 

[RedFan]

Lets put 100 people in a room

All 100 are guilty of crimes, and all have been given the death penalty.

What does God do.

1. Forgive them all?
2. Let them all suffer their just punishment?
3. Forgive some, but not others. And if he does this, who does he forgive and who does he not? And for what reason does he forgive some and not others.

Not sure where you are going with these options. My question was only about

4. Condemn another in their place?

 

[St. SteVen]

Did we have one before we knew Jesus?

Do we have one now?

Good questions. A mysterious thing, as you say.

A quick search yielded a few things.
The first two speak of the spirits of believers.
The last one is in reference to all those in the realm of the dead.
More to say about this in the next post from me.

Hebrews 12:23 NIV
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven.
You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

1 Corinthians 14:32 NIV
The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.

1 Peter 3:19-20 KJV
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few,
that is, eight souls were saved by water.

/

 

[Lambano]

1 Corinthians 14:32 NIV
The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.

In the context of 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, this one points to being about independent prophetic spirits who speak through humans in the congregation; it's not about a believer's own spirit. In this case, a congregant prophesying in the assembly has some measure of control of the Spirit speaking through him.

I've never been to a Charismatic service, but it sounds like it would be a little more raucous than your typical Methodist service.

 

[Lambano]

1 Peter 3:19-20 KJV
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few,
that is, eight souls were saved by water.

This one is one the Bible's Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot head-scratchers. Who are these spirits? Humans? Nephilim? The spirits behind the Nephilim?

 

[Jack]

Good questions. A mysterious thing, as you say.

A quick search yielded a few things.
The first two speak of the spirits of believers.
The last one is in reference to all those in the realm of the dead.
More to say about this in the next post from me.

Hebrews 12:23 NIV
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven.
You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

1 Corinthians 14:32 NIV
The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.

1 Peter 3:19-20 KJV
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing, wherein few,
that is, eight souls were saved by water.

/

Do you believe any of the Scriptures you provided are the written Word of God? It's a YES or NO answer. I think the answer is NO!