Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?

[Eternally Grateful]

I have been a lawyer for nearly 45 years, and understand the legal system quite well. And a criminal verdict of guilty does not result in payment of a "debt." It results in incarceration and/or fines and/or sometimes payment of restitution to victims of financial crimes. A debt is a civil matter. A civil judgment can recognize that a debt was owed. A criminal verdict is different.

You just proved my point for me,

Incarceration is the debt the criminal owns the city, state, or country.

Same with the fines.

Again, debt is death.. Actually we have a certificate of

Paul says it better in Col 2: 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

[BlessedPeace]

I have been a lawyer for nearly 45 years, and understand the legal system quite well. And a criminal verdict of guilty does not result in payment of a "debt." It results in incarceration and/or fines and/or sometimes payment of restitution to victims of financial crimes. A debt is a civil matter. A civil judgment can recognize that a debt was owed. A criminal verdict is different.

Take that criminal scenario and consider the judgement when a defendant is first guilty of their crime because they were born.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That unfortunately does not answer the point.

A marriage is founded on a good relationship with understanding from both sides.
A marriage only exists when both parties stay faithful to the agreement.

What is obvious is for some the arrangement is somehow forever even when one side hates the whole arrangement.

Love by its nature is mutual appreciation and its expression from both parties.

God loves everyone but will still judge sinners for their sin.

I suspect this rejection of sinners is too painful to accept, and any hope is the only thing that brings an answer to despair.
But the answer to loneliness and rejection is opening ones heart to Jesus and letting love no matter how painful be
expressed openly.

God loves the prodigal son because he returns home and is prepared to work as a servant for the father.
It is not the prodigal continuing in the world in their pig pen and still being accepted home. No that prodigal
is still lost and without hope, who has inherited friends who only were friends because of money.

Repentance is stopping living for oneself but rather living for Jesus and others using what one has for that end.
The hardest thing is to accept ones own limitations and weaknesses and to encourage others in their ways.

I have interacted with believers who claimed they did not have to love others.
This is odd because to follow Jesus is to follow His example and He loved others, so we likewise must love from the
heart but that is only possible if we are cleansed and forgive others despite their lostness and slavery to sin.

Paul expressed this a blessing those who curse you, forgiving those who hurt you and praying for those who persecute you.
This is the hardest thing, because it can only be empowered by Jesus's love working through us, as we see and know who
He actually is and embrace the meaning of the reality He has brought to creation.

If one step of faith establishes an eternal loving relationship, then a root and branch when going to see Jesus will be
needed. In scripture the only root and branch change is spiritual new birth from heaven. If it does not show in life here
and now it simply does not exist. And sadly few appear to know what this actually means,

God bless you

You unfortunately miss the point

You’re trying to take two humans who are flawed and make that resemble OSAS. OSAS is far from it.

Think of it this way. We are adopted as Gods child. As a child of God. We are his forever. That is what OSAS is like..

 

[Hillsage]

Take that criminal scenario and consider the judgement when a defendant is first guilty of their crime because they were born.

Being born with a sin nature, and being a sinner is two different things. The sin nature actually comes before birth, in the womb, before a sin is ever committed. Unless a 'sinful flesh' fetus kicking its mamma in the gut counts. Might want to ask a 'mother to be' if she'd send her fetus to ETERNAL HELL if he/she was stillborn.

And I don't think Jesus died for your sin nature, just for the penalty of committed sins which is death. The covenant that God has not eliminated since giving it to mankind in Adam.

 

[RedFan]

You just proved my point for me,

Incarceration is the debt the criminal owns the city, state, or country.

Same with the fines.

Again, debt is death.. Actually we have a certificate of

Paul says it better in Col 2: 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Let's agree to disagree on what the legal system considers a "debt." But my original question stands: What restrained God from simply canceling the "debt?"

 

[Hillsage]

Let's agree to disagree on what the legal system considers a "debt." But my original question stands: What restrained God from simply canceling the "debt?"

Same thing that made him create Satan to begin with. Being omniscient, He knew 'the end before the beginning', of Satan and us.

 

[Wick Stick]

Precious friend, please advise us then, "Which" Of These Multitude of Plain and Clear Scriptures,
is Exactly "a flawed foundation" For God's Eternal Salvation?:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST
+ Update
+
God's Eternal Assurance
+
God's Eternal Life Insurance

Amen.

I won't be reading from external links, trying to argue with not-the-person-to-whom-I'm-responding, in a thread that isn't-where-that-argument-is-happening.

If you can organize your own thoughts into a few sentences that are relevant to this topic, in this thread, then we can have a conversation.

 

[St. SteVen]

Might want to ask a 'mother to be' if she'd send her fetus to ETERNAL HELL if he/she was stillborn.

--- PARODY ---

Imagined conversation between Jesus and a distraught mother in heaven. (parody)

Mother: Lord, I was remembering my child.
Jesus: Yes, I can see her now in torment.
Mother: When will it end?
Jesus: Hell is forever.
Mother: Is there no hope for my child?
Jesus: Sorry, no hope for those in hell.
Mother: Surely my child has been punished enough by now.
Jesus: No, unbelief is an eternal crime.
Mother: I would gladly trade places with my child.
Jesus: I couldn't do that to you.
Mother: Why can you do it to my child?
Jesus: They are my enemy.
Mother: Didn't you teach us to love our enemies?
Jesus: Hmm... you got me there.

/

 

[Wick Stick]

What restrained God from simply canceling the "debt?"

I don't think the OT idea of debt is the same as that of the modern vernacular.

Modern debt is incurred primarily by borrowing. Old Testament debt is a consequence of being judged guilty when brought to court.

The Law doesn't entertain the idea that debt can just be canceled. It considers that a subversion of justice. God even specifically says that He "will not acquit the guilty."

Under the Law, if the guilty cannot pay the price of their crime, it allows for someone else to pay (redemption), or it allows for the debt to be covered by the blood of a sacrifice (atonement). These are Biblical ways of satisfying the debt; not canceling it.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I won't be reading from external links

They are my studies, internal to this forum, if you must know:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!

Precious friend(s). All Praise, Honor, And Glory To The LORD JESUS CHRIST, The Wonderful Saviour, And HIS Finished Work On The Deadly CROSS, (1 John 2:2, 4:10 KJB), In Love for All mankind! Amen? For He Hath Made Him sin For us, Who Knew no sin; that we might be Made The Righteousness Of God...

www.christianityboard.com

+

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!

Precious friend(s). All Praise, Honor, And Glory To The LORD JESUS CHRIST, The Wonderful Saviour, And HIS Finished Work On The Deadly CROSS, (1 John 2:2, 4:10 KJB), In Love for All mankind! Amen? For He Hath Made Him sin For us, Who Knew no sin; that we might be Made The Righteousness Of God...

www.christianityboard.com

+

God's Eternal Assurance In PURE GRACE!

Precious friend(s), if you have ever had the feeling that God's Free Gift Of Eternal life HE Gave to you, According To HIS Will, is somehow not secure, then you are not alone. We are human, and many believers struggle with this. Let us then, set aside, for a moment, the claims/theology that...

www.christianityboard.com

+

God's Eternal Life Insurance

God's Insurance Policy - - Designed for the Human Race Eternal Life Insurance - - BENEFITS – DIVIDENDS - - Premiums Prepaid “Which HE Purchased With HIS Own BLOOD!” (Acts 20:28) Saved From Wrath By Grace "For By Grace are ye saved through faith; and that Not of yourselves: It Is The Gift of...

www.christianityboard.com

No one said you Have to check them out, For God's Truth, if you 'don't wish' to

But they are still 'offered' with all God-Given humility...

Amen.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Let's agree to disagree on what the legal system considers a "debt." But my original question stands: What restrained God from simply canceling the "debt?"

Because his justice not allow him to..

Jesus said, if there is any other way remove this cup from me.
there was no other way

 

[RedFan]

Because his justice not allow him to..

Jesus said, if there is any other way remove this cup from me.
there was no other way

Yet His justice does allow him to brutally punish Jesus for our sins? How is that just?

 

[Wick Stick]

Yet His justice does allow him to brutally punish Jesus for our sins? How is that just?

It's not just. It's redemptive.

By definition, redemption is for the guilty, not the just.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Being born with a sin nature, and being a sinner is two different things. The sin nature actually comes before birth, in the womb, before a sin is ever committed. Unless a 'sinful flesh' fetus kicking its mamma in the gut counts.

Not true.
If it were true all aborted,miscarried, "natural spontaneous abortion", babies would go to Hell because they died in sin.
Not true at all,ever.

Might want to ask a 'mother to be' if she'd send her fetus to ETERNAL HELL if he/she was stillborn.

Since you claim in utero babies have a sin nature,you answer that.

And I don't think Jesus died for your sin nature, just for the penalty of committed sins which is death. The covenant that God has not eliminated since giving it to mankind in Adam.

Sin is only possible due to our sin nature.
Adam,in the beginning,did not have a sin nature.

 

[Wick Stick]

They are my studies, internal to this forum, if you must know:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!

Precious friend(s). All Praise, Honor, And Glory To The LORD JESUS CHRIST, The Wonderful Saviour, And HIS Finished Work On The Deadly CROSS, (1 John 2:2, 4:10 KJB), In Love for All mankind! Amen? For He Hath Made Him sin For us, Who Knew no sin; that we might be Made The Righteousness Of God...

www.christianityboard.com

+

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!

Precious friend(s). All Praise, Honor, And Glory To The LORD JESUS CHRIST, The Wonderful Saviour, And HIS Finished Work On The Deadly CROSS, (1 John 2:2, 4:10 KJB), In Love for All mankind! Amen? For He Hath Made Him sin For us, Who Knew no sin; that we might be Made The Righteousness Of God...

www.christianityboard.com

+

God's Eternal Assurance In PURE GRACE!

Precious friend(s), if you have ever had the feeling that God's Free Gift Of Eternal life HE Gave to you, According To HIS Will, is somehow not secure, then you are not alone. We are human, and many believers struggle with this. Let us then, set aside, for a moment, the claims/theology that...

www.christianityboard.com

+

God's Eternal Life Insurance

God's Insurance Policy - - Designed for the Human Race Eternal Life Insurance - - BENEFITS – DIVIDENDS - - Premiums Prepaid “Which HE Purchased With HIS Own BLOOD!” (Acts 20:28) Saved From Wrath By Grace "For By Grace are ye saved through faith; and that Not of yourselves: It Is The Gift of...

www.christianityboard.com

No one said you Have to check them out, For God's Truth, if you 'don't wish' to

But they are still 'offered' with all God-Given humility...

Amen.

With appreciation for your efforts, I will pass. My purpose here is conversation; not study.

If you are ever interested in conversation, and you can dumb it down to a few sentences or a paragraph or so for me, I'd love to talk.

 

[RedFan]

It's not just. It's redemptive.

By definition, redemption is for the guilty, not the just.

The question is not whether we are just. It's whether God is just in crucifying Christ for our sins. Here is an all-loving Supreme Being who could, if He wished, just forgive all sin with a waive of His metaphorical hand, but chose instead to have His Son brutally murdered. Call it what you will, but don't call it just. It is never justice to punish A for B's offense.

 

[Hillsage]

Yet His justice does allow him to brutally punish Jesus for our sins? How is that just?

'Letter of the law' counselor. ; God didn't "brutally punish" Jesus....the Jews and the Romans did.

JOH 19:10 Pilate therefore said to him, "You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you, and power to crucify you?" 11 Jesus answered him, "You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore he who delivered me to you (THE JEWS) has the greater sin."

And neither God the Father or the Holy Spirit force Jesus to do it.

JOH 10:17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father."

Might say he committed suicide. But of course that can't be, because suicide is sin.

Or is this where someone who drove the getaway car gets charged for murder, when someone else committed the actual crime. I believe 'accomplice' is the 'letter of the law' legal term....correct?

 

[RedFan]

'Letter of the law' counselor. ; God didn't "brutally punish" Jesus....the Jews and the Romans did.

Let's not delude ourselves that "God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son" to do a bit of preaching and perform some miracles, and it came as a complete surprise to God that the Jews and Romans crucified Christ for it. That was always the Father's plan.

 

[Hillsage]

Let's not delude ourselves that "God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten son" to do a bit of preaching and perform some miracles, and it came as a complete surprise to God that the Jews and Romans crucified Christ for it. That was always the Father's plan.

Wasn't that begotten son's "body"/"flesh" formerly 'God the WORD'? Kind of why I was alluding to the "suicide" angle.


From your previous 716 post;

Call it what you will, but don't call it just. It is never justice to punish A for B's offense

You never dealt with the question from my last text;

"Or is this where someone who drove the getaway car gets charged for murder, when someone else committed the actual crime. I believe 'accomplice' is the 'letter of the law' legal term....correct?"

IOW, are you saying that our justice system....isn't just punishing an 'accomplice'? That's really why I asked the 'accomplice' question.

So, could it be possible that Jesus as an accomplice in the human race, has assumed our guilt in a crime He never committed? That crime being SINNED?

 

[RedFan]

Wasn't that begotten son's "body"/"flesh" formerly 'God the WORD'? Kind of why I was alluding to the "suicide" angle.


From your previous 716 post;

You never dealt with the question from my last text;

"Or is this where someone who drove the getaway car gets charged for murder, when someone else committed the actual crime. I believe 'accomplice' is the 'letter of the law' legal term....correct?"

IOW, are you saying that our justice system....isn't just punishing an 'accomplice'? That's really why I asked the 'accomplice' question.

So, could it be possible that Jesus as an accomplice in the human race, has assumed our guilt in a crime He never committed? That crime being SINNED?

I would use co-conspirator rather than accomplice, but lets go with your word. Who are the accomplices? Christ and whom? Christ and mankind? Christ and the Father?

If Christ was an accomplice to mankind's sin and therefore somehow guilty so as to deserve punishment, then 1 John 3:5, 1 Peter 2:22 and 2 Cor. 5:21 are simply incorrect.