Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?

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St. SteVen

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Did we have one before we knew Jesus?

Do we have one now?

What's the difference between a "soul" and a "spirit"?

Genesis 41:8 says Pharaoh's spirit was troubled. Did Pharoah have a sentient, non-material aspect to his existence that was independent of his physical existence, or is "spirit" just referring to his state of mind at the time?

We take these words for granted and toss them around without considering what they actually mean.
Here's how I understand it.
And I think this ties into my position on physical and spiritual life and death.

We have three parts: Body, Soul and Spirit (or body mind and spirit)

Body = the physical part
Soul = our individuality - mind will emotions - our named part
Spirit = the spiritual part

Eventually the Body (the physical part) dies.
The Soul (our individuality - mind/will/emotions - our named part)
and our Spirit (the spiritual part) carries on from there.

Our physical brain is like an organic computer hard drive.
It contains our mind. (Soul) = individuality - mind/will/emotions - our named part.

I think this explains what can happen in a NDE.
The person remembers hovering above the operating table witnessing the doctors rescue attempts.
They can see and hear everything happening. Why?

Here's a joke along those lines.
If you had a brain transplant, who would you be? - LOL

The Soul (our individuality - mind/will/emotions - our named part)
determines WHO we are. Not the physical body we are in.

When we leave the physical realm and enter the spiritual realm of the afterlife
our Soul (our individuality - mind/will/emotions - our named part) carries us.
Our mind still contains EVERYTHING about us. For which we will be judged.

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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
1 Corinthians 14:32 NIV
The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
In the context of 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, this one points to being about independent prophetic spirits who speak through humans in the congregation; it's not about a believer's own spirit. In this case, a congregant prophesying in the assembly has some measure of control of the spirit speaking through him.

I've never been to a Charismatic service, but it sounds like it would be a little more raucous than your typical Methodist service.
Prophecy should be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. (singular)
Hard to say what exactly "the spirits of prophets" is about.
I assumed it was the prophet's own spirits, but... ???

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Eternally Grateful

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So all "spiritually alive" REALLY means is "having a renewed relationship with God"? That's it?

I guess I was expecting something more dramatic.
Actually it means we who were dead in our trespasses and sin are made alive in Christ.

That is pretty dramatic..
 

Lambano

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St. SteVen said:
1 Corinthians 14:32 NIV
The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.

Prophecy should be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. (singular)
Hard to say what exactly "the spirits of prophets" is about.
I assumed it was the prophet's own spirits, but... ???

/
Nah, look at the immediately preceding two verses. It's about taking turns prophesying. Someone with a prophesy that's just bursting to get out has enough control of the prophetic spirit to shut up until it's his turn.
 

Eternally Grateful

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Did we have one before we knew Jesus?

Do we have one now?

What's the difference between a "soul" and a "spirit"?

Genesis 41:8 says Pharaoh's spirit was troubled. Did Pharoah have a sentient, non-material aspect to his existence that was independent of his physical existence, or is "spirit" just referring to his state of mind at the time?

We take these words for granted and toss them around without considering what they actually mean.
Look at it this way

Physical death is the soul separate from the body. Their relationship and unity is severed. The Body is dead.

Spiritual death is the soul separated from God. It was severed when Adam sinned and this separation is passed to all of his offspring, who will eventually earn their own separation by their own sin (the wage of sin is death)
 

St. SteVen

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You believe in the curse was spiritual death????? I've said this a hundred times and you've never said anything contrary, that i remember; "Adam and Eve did not die spiritually!" In fact; they actually gave access to another spirit, when they opened the door of temptation to another spirit which preached another gospel to them and they began thinking like the devil.
I think both of these aspects can be true. Spiritual death and access of the enemy to our minds.

If a person needs deliverance from demons, how many spirits are present?
The demoniac said, "My name is Legion, for we are many." (from memory)

Can a Christian have a demon? Yes, I believe so. I had a least one cast out.

/
 

Lambano

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It means you are spiritually separated from God.
That just changes the question from "what does 'spiritually dead' mean?" to "what does 'spiritually separated' mean?" It's not helpful, because it doesn't define what "spiritual" means. See what I mean?

I can't help but think of my college buddy's ditzy roommate who was into crystals and auras and the like. Didn't want to talk about Jesus. "Oh, I'm not religious. I'm spiritual." :rolleyes:
 
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St. SteVen

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Nah, look at the immediately preceding two verses. It's about taking turns prophesying. Someone with a prophesy that's just bursting to get out has enough control of the prophetic spirit to shut up until it's his turn.
Does the term "prophetic spirit' come up anywhere else?
A quick search yielded zero results.

/
 

Eternally Grateful

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Not sure where you are going with these options. My question was only about

4. Condemn another in their place?
Did the judge not allow himself to be condemned to death on his son's behalf?

Read it again,

Because this is what God did for us.

Here is an OT prophecy written centuries before Christ that speak of this condemnation poured on this messiah or the servant

Starting in Chapter 52 of the prophet Isaiah;

Behold, My Servant shall [d]deal prudently;
He shall be exalted and [e]extolled and be very high.
14 Just as many were astonished at you,
So His visage was marred more than any man,
And His form more than the sons of men;
15 So shall He sprinkle many nations. (in the OT, this term means to sprinkle the blood for a sin offering)
Kings shall shut their mouths at Him;
For what had not been told them they shall see,
And what they had not heard they shall consider.

Finishing on Chapter 53

Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For He (the servant of Chapter 52) shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.

He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3 He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.

5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;

He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

9 And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.


10 Yet it pleased the Lord to [q]bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,

He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.


We may not like this idea of God doing this to himself, as it tears at our Pride and tears at our flesh. But this is what God did. And in doing so he will shut the mouth of all creation for all eternity, as he made a spectacle of Satan and his army
 

Eternally Grateful

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That just changes the question from "what does 'spiritually dead' mean?" to "what does 'spiritually separated' mean?" It's not helpful, because it doesn't define what "spiritual" means. See what I mean?

I can't help but think of my college buddy's ditzy roommate who was into crystals and auras and the like. Didn't want to talk about Jesus. "Oh, I'm not religious. I'm spiritual." :rolleyes:
Look at it this way


Physical death is the soul separate from the body. Their relationship and unity is severed. The Body is dead.


Spiritual death is the soul separated from God. It was severed when Adam sinned and this separation is passed to all of his offspring, who will eventually earn their own separation by their own sin (the wage of sin is death)

When I was growing up. A pastor used the term barrier between God and man, The wall or barrier is the separation that keeps us from God.

remember the OT law. How could we approach God? We could not. Only through the sacrifice of multiple animals could the high priest even think of entering in to make atonement.

Thats how deep our situation or separation from God was..

The only way to restore is was The death of Christ
 

Hillsage

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The word "spirit' is implied in the word "dead". Unless you believe we were physically dead in our trespasses. ???
What KIND of death is being implied here?


Well... they all contain the word "dead". So, I guess you need to define it. Physical or spiritual?

The Greek actually treats "dead' as if it is physically dead.
So, I suppose it is either metaphorical, or like Abraham before Sarah bore him Isaac. (as good as dead) ???

Metaphorically dead would be a reference to spiritually dead from my perspective.

We also need to address part two of the verse. It is comparing dead and alive. You WERE dead, Christ MADE you alive.
So we also need to define "alive". Physically alive, or spiritually alive? We were dead and Christ made us physically alive?
Or... we were dead and Christ made us spiritually alive? Were you physically dead when Christ made you physically alive?

Not sure that works. Unless our being dead was mortal death, and being made alive was immortal life. ???
(mortal versus age-during - in UR terms?)

But wouldn't that be stated as in we were mortal and Christ made you immortal?
So, "mortal" = dead "immortal" = alive ??? Maybe that is what you are claiming. Not sure.
And what about this?
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable,
through the living and enduring word of God. - 1 Peter 1:23 NIV

Born again physically. or spiritually?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Reminds me of this too. Crossed over from death to life. From physical death? To what? Physical life? ???

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

COMPARE

Luke 16:26 NIV
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place,
so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

/
The word "spirit' is implied in the word "dead". Unless you believe we were physically dead in our trespasses. ???
What KIND of death is being implied here?


Well... they all contain the word "dead". So, I guess you need to define it. Physical or spiritual?

The Greek actually treats "dead' as if it is physically dead.
So, I suppose it is either metaphorical, or like Abraham before Sarah bore him Isaac. (as good as dead) ???

Metaphorically dead would be a reference to spiritually dead from my perspective.

We also need to address part two of the verse. It is comparing dead and alive. You WERE dead, Christ MADE you alive.
So we also need to define "alive". Physically alive, or spiritually alive? We were dead and Christ made us physically alive?
Or... we were dead and Christ made us spiritually alive? Were you physically dead when Christ made you physically alive?

Not sure that works. Unless our being dead was mortal death, and being made alive was immortal life. ???
(mortal versus age-during - in UR terms?)

But wouldn't that be stated as in we were mortal and Christ made you immortal?
So, "mortal" = dead "immortal" = alive ??? Maybe that is what you are claiming. Not sure.
And what about this?
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable,
through the living and enduring word of God. - 1 Peter 1:23 NIV

Born again physically. or spiritually?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Reminds me of this too. Crossed over from death to life. From physical death? To what? Physical life? ???

John 5:24 NIV
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

COMPARE

Luke 16:26 NIV
And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place,
so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

/
I guess some things are just better 'caught' than 'taught'. And I don't know what else to say.
In the movie; THE GREEN MILE' when they called the inmates on DEATH ROW...."DEAD MAN WALKING"....what did it mean? Were they physically dead, spiritually dead? Or did they just have a DEATH SENTENCE meaning they were 'headed for dead'...via electricity unless pardoned. I think the context determines final definition and I'll just leave it there. Obviously what makes sense to me isn't to you.
"now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." Until then.


@St. SteVen
 
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Hillsage

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where do you get this info?

Adam died the moment he sinned, If he did not die physically. what type of death did he suffer?
YLT EZE 18:4 Lo, all the souls are Mine, As the soul of the father, So also the soul of the son - they are Mine, The soul that is sinning - it doth die.
 

St. SteVen

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I guess some things are just better 'caught' than 'taught'. And I don't know what else to say.
In the movie; THE GREEN MILE' when they called the inmates on DEATH ROW...."DEAD MAN WALKING"....what did it mean? Were they physically dead, spiritually dead? Or did they just have a DEATH SENTENCE meaning they were 'headed for dead'...via electricity unless pardoned. I think the context determines final definition and I'll just leave it there. Obviously what makes sense to me isn't to you.
"now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." Until then.


@St. SteVen
So...
You had a DEATH SENTENCE until Christ gave you a LIFE SENTENCE. ???

But you still have that DEATH SENTENCE. Why?

"LIVE MAN WALKING" ???

Hebrews 11:8. 12 NIV
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance,
obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. ...
12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as
numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

Romans 8:11 NIV
And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you,
he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies
because of[a] his Spirit who lives in you.

Luke 20:37-38 NIV
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise,
for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’[a]
38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

/
 
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St. SteVen

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So...
You had a DEATH SENTENCE until Christ gave you a LIFE SENTENCE. ???

But you still have that DEATH SENTENCE. Why?

"LIVE MAN WALKING" ???
@Lambano @RedFan @WalkInLight (all members are invited to reply)
This is actually an interesting question. (personal bias noted) - LOL

Christ paid our death penalty on the cross. Why do we still have a death sentence?
What sort of death and life are we talking about here?

Example:
If you were in front of a judge and he dealt you a harsh sentence,
but then someone stepped in and paid the penalty for you.
What becomes of the sentence? Do you still have to pay?
Do you still owe? Do you walk free?

I've been discussing this with @Hillsage and @Lambano

Colossians 2:13-14 NIV
When you were dead in your sins
and in the uncircumcision of your flesh,
God made you[a] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness,
which stood against us and condemned us;
he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

/
 
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