Why do you feel it is so hard to be good?

[Ferris Bueller]

it seems to me that the reality is people are afraid grace will be stolen if it's free...

"...be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing." 2 Peter 3:17
​

The security of salvation comes from the reliability of the Sacrifice that saves us, not from some supposed truth that you can't fall from that which is secure. IOW, Christ is what is secure about salvation, not your possession of it. That's why we are told to hold fast to that which is reliable and secure...

"Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful. " Hebrews 10:23​

 

[Ferris Bueller]

you got James2:24 and I have Ephesians 2:8-9 “ For it is by Grace that you have been saved, and this is not of your own doing—- it is the GIFT of God”

If you really have the free gift of salvation you'll have obedience to God to prove it. Just as Abraham had obedience to God to prove his faith. That's why a person is justified by, both, faith and works (James 2:24). The person who has faith alone has not passed the test for true faith. You are deceiving them into thinking they have.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The entire debate is a moot point for me....I got my “Works” to prove my Faith if I have to do so....I just don't think I “ have” to .

By saying that you are deceiving others who don't have any works to prove they have faith into thinking they have the faith that saves. That's a serious charge.

 

[Grailhunter]

Lol.....your original subject has not been addressed in here for days....this thread is all over the map now, as it has been for a long time.....why do you single “me “ out? Is it because you can’t use Scripture to win our disagreements....Is it because I know and understand the Bible better than you? Methinks I must be hitting a nerve.....I have never seen a threat like you are making just because I may have gotten “ off topic”—— just like a dozen other people in here have done....maybe YOU should exit your own thread....” if you can’t stand the Heat,stay out of the kitchen”...... even if that “ kitchen” is your own....

You underestimate yourself....you always hit a nerve.
Move along.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

James is talking to Believers about proving their faith to MEN.....one does not have to “ prove” such things to God —— God sees your Heart

How does that change the fact that you have to be justified by, both, faith and works and not by faith alone?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I see it this way.....if Paul says one thing and James appears to sayanother,go with Paul......the Bible says for us Gentiles to FOLLOW PAUL as he follows Christ.....The Bible NEVER says to “ Follow James as he follows Christ”.

You're admitting that you are rejecting what James said because you don't understand it. At least you're honest. James and Paul are not in contradiction. I mean, they are in your theology, but not in mine. The man who is justified by faith apart from works will not have a faith that is alone. He can't have a faith that is alone. For even as you yourself said, "If I must Believe the Gospel to be Saved and then after that juggle Ten chain- saws in the air at the same time , the “ monkey” is on GOD’S Back to see that I am able to do that juggling". So, if you're not juggling 10 chainsaws, what does that mean? That means you aren't saved! You don't have saving faith. Newbies need to know this, BB. Stop telling them their faith that is alone is saving faith. It's not.

 

[Truth7t7]

You are not address the subject of the thread. Need no Trolls.
2nd warning, move it a long

Grailhunter, as in King Arthur and the legend of the holy grail?

Noticed your avatar is of a person forging a sword?

 

[Grailhunter]

Grailhunter, as in King Arthur and the legend of the holy grail?

Noticed your avatar is of a person forging a sword?

So?

 

[Truth7t7]

So?

Wikipedia: The Holy Grail (French: Saint Graal, Breton: Graal Santel, Welsh: Greal Sanctaidd, Cornish: Gral) is a treasure that serves as an important motif in Arthurian literature. Different traditions describe it as a cup, dish or stone with miraculous powers that provides eternal youth or sustenance in infinite abundance, often in the custody of the Fisher King.

 

[Grailhunter]

Wikipedia: The Holy Grail (French: Saint Graal, Breton: Graal Santel, Welsh: Greal Sanctaidd, Cornish: Gral) is a treasure that serves as an important motif in Arthurian literature. Different traditions describe it as a cup, dish or stone with miraculous powers that provides eternal youth or sustenance in infinite abundance, often in the custody of the Fisher King.

So? Not the topic of this thread.

 

[Tong2020]

GB...I mean, BB..., you're making a grave mistake. That's not all that Abraham did...

"20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?h 21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did. 23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”i and he was called a friend of God.j 24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone." James 2:20-24​

James says Abraham's faith in Genesis 15:6 was worthless without his actions in Genesis 22:10. Abraham was justified by what he did fulfilling the scripture that says he was justified by what he believed. He is our example so that we can see a man is not justified by faith alone, but also by his deeds. He passed the test of faith by doing what God commanded him to do (Genesis 22:1). His actions showed/proved that he really did have faith in God. That's why a man is justified by, both, faith and works and not by faith that is alone.

You have to stop telling people that all they have to have is faith and don't need to have works. The person without works doesn't have faith. You are deceiving them into thinking they do.

If James there says what you are saying that justification is by faith and works, how do you explain the rest of scriptures (OT & NT) which clearly says that justification is by faith?

Certainly, scriptures does not contradict scriptures. We must understand what James is saying in context, even in the larger context of the truth that is all over scriptures which says that justification is by faith.

Tong
R4409

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If James there says what you are saying that justification is by faith and works, how do you explain the rest of scriptures (OT & NT) which clearly says that justification is by faith?

A man is justified by, BOTH, faith and works. A man is made righteous by faith all by itself apart from works. That man is then shown to be righteous by what he does...if he really has the faith that makes a man righteous. You can't have one without the other, or else, ultimately, you have neither.

Certainly, scriptures does not contradict scriptures. We must understand what James is saying in context, even in the larger context of the truth that is all over scriptures which says that justification is by faith.

James is not contradicting Paul. James is saying the person who has faith will have the works that real faith produces, just like Abraham did, or else he has failed the test of faith.

Notice, James is not discounting faith...

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18​

So, he's not undermining faith at all. He understands that salvation is through faith. He's just arguing that it's through the faith that works. Paul said the same thing...

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value (towards justification). All that matters (towards justification) is faith, expressed through love." Galatians 5:6
​

See, even Paul is saying the faith that justifies is the faith that obeys God. So there is no contradiction here.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
If James there says what you are saying that justification is by faith and works, how do you explain the rest of scriptures (OT & NT) which clearly says that justification is by faith?

A man is justified by, BOTH, faith and works. A man is made righteous by faith all by itself apart from works. That man is then shown to be righteous by what he does...if he really has the faith that makes a man righteous. You can't have one without the other, or else, ultimately, you have neither.

Well, you are not explaining how or why is the rest of scriptures (OT &NT) says that justification is by faith, if James there says what you are saying that justification is by faith and works.

But it seems that I was wrong in my understanding of what you said in your post. So, let’s drop that matter.

And if I now get you right, you are saying that James is saying that faith justifies and work also justifies. Is that right?

Though you are at the same time saying concerning faith and works, that you can’t have one without the other. That would mean you can’t have faith without works and you can’t have works without faith. Is that right?

Please address the two points, that I may be clarified. Thanks.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Certainly, scriptures does not contradict scriptures. We must understand what James is saying in context, even in the larger context of the truth that is all over scriptures which says that justification is by faith.

James is not contradicting Paul. James is saying the person who has faith will have the works that real faith produces, just like Abraham did, or else he has failed the test of faith.

Notice, James is not discounting faith...

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18​

So, he's not undermining faith at all. He understands that salvation is through faith. He's just arguing that it's through the faith that works. Paul said the same thing...

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value (towards justification). All that matters (towards justification) is faith, expressed through love." Galatians 5:6
​

See, even Paul is saying the faith that justifies is the faith that obeys God. So there is no contradiction here.

<<<James is saying the person who has faith will have the works that real faith produces,..>>>

I don’t find James saying anything like that in James 2. So, could you point us to that part in James 2 where James effectively say that?

<<<Notice, James is not discounting faith.…….So, he's not undermining faith at all.>>>

Nothing in my post says anything like that nor is there anything there that says James is discounting faith and undermining faith.

The rest of your post aims to show something that is not even mentioned or argued about in my post. On the other hand, you have in effect left out altogether the issue presented to you in my post.

Or are you by that suggesting that there are scriptures that effectively teaches that man is also justified by works and not by faith only?

Perhaps you would like to address this part of my post in the quotebox by giving your understanding of what James is saying in the immediate context and also on the broader context of the scriptures which teaches that justification is by faith.

Tong
R4410

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Well, you are not explaining how or why is the rest of scriptures (OT &NT) says that justification is by faith, if James there says what you are saying that justification is by faith and works.

I showed you that Paul and James are in agreement. Paul did not believe that a man is justified by dead faith, but rather by the faith that works—Galatians 5:6. That is the same argument James is making in his letter.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And if I now get you right, you are saying that James is saying that faith justifies and work also justifies. Is that right?

That is correct. Because that is what James plainly says in James 2:24.
'Justified' means to be made righteous. And 'justified' also means to be shown to be righteous. So you can see that the man that is made righteous by faith can't help but to reveal that righteousness by what he does. Just as the wicked man shows he is wicked by what he does. Faith that is alone can not save a man because it is showing itself to not be genuine.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Though you are at the same time saying concerning faith and works, that you can’t have one without the other. That would mean you can’t have faith without works and you can’t have works without faith. Is that right?

That is correct. They go hand in hand.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Well, you are not explaining how or why is the rest of scriptures (OT &NT) says that justification is by faith, if James there says what you are saying that justification is by faith and works.

I showed you that Paul and James are in agreement. Paul did not believe that a man is justified by dead faith, but rather by the faith that works—Galatians 5:6. That is the same argument James is making in his letter.

Yes, James and Paul are not in contradiction. However, we have different reasons to that effect.

<<< Paul did not believe that a man is justified by dead faith, but rather by the faith that works—Galatians 5:6. That is the same argument James is making in his letter.>>>

Paul:

1What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,(Rom.4)

James:

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. (James 2)

According to Paul, concerning Abraham, was Abraham justified by works?

According to James, concerning Abraham, was Abraham justified by works?

According to Paul, what is accounted for righteousness?

According to James, what is accounted for righteousness?

Are they saying the same thing about justification? Are they speaking of the same justification? Are they making the same argument?

Tong
R4412

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And if I now get you right, you are saying that James is saying that faith justifies and work also justifies. Is that right?

That is correct. Because that is what James plainly says in James 2:24.
'Justified' means to be made righteous. And 'justified' also means to be shown to be righteous. So you can see that the man that is made righteous by faith can't help but to reveal that righteousness by what he does. Just as the wicked man shows he is wicked by what he does. Faith that is alone can not save a man because it is showing itself to not be genuine.

At least I understand what you are trying to say now, that you believe that faith justifies and works also justifies.

Tong
R4413

 

[BloodBought 1953]

"...be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing." 2 Peter 3:17
​

The security of salvation comes from the reliability of the Sacrifice that saves us, not from some supposed truth that you can't fall from that which is secure. IOW, Christ is what is secure about salvation, not your possession of it. That's why we are told to hold fast to that which is reliable and secure...

"Let us hold resolutely to the hope we profess, for He who promised is faithful. " Hebrews 10:23​

Putting one’s complete trust in the PROMISES of GOD is where the Security is at....” FOREVER God’s Word is settled in Heaven...”

Here’s a Great Promise Of God that gives me all the Security that I ever need—-it’s the first verse that I ever taught my daughter when she was very young.....” Any body that ASKS to be Saved WILL be Saved” ....

 

[BloodBought 1953]

If you really have the free gift of salvation you'll have obedience to God to prove it. Just as Abraham had obedience to God to prove his faith. That's why a person is justified by, both, faith and works (James 2:24). The person who has faith alone has not passed the test for true faith. You are deceiving them into thinking they have.

Abraham’s “Obedience ?” You gotta be kidding, right? Once again, you show how “ poor” a Student you are of God’s Word.....

AFTER the Promise from God Of being declared “ Righteous” because he Believed God, Abraham’s life contained MUCH Sin and Disobedience....

He DISOBEYED God when he allowed Lot to travel with him......He lied about Sarah being his wife when he went down to Egypt ......he showed unbelief in regard to the Promise concerning Sarah and how she would give birth to the child Of Promise, Isaac, which lead to his Adultery with Hagar.....

Heard Enough? I’m pretty sure there is more.....Abraham was a great man of Faith.....he was NOT a paragon of virtue at all times.....Thank God, because of his FAITH , Abraham’s Many Sins were Covered.....he always paid a price here on Earth for his Disobedience , but his Salvation was never in question.....just like you and I and every other Sinner out here that is a Believer, Abraham benefited from the Grace Of God .....it Trumped all of his sins....” Where Sin abounds, Grace abounds that much more....” You and your Cronies Reject Grace ......I am like Abraham and Paul .....” I don’t hold back the Grace Of God”......I thank God for it.....

God HATES our sins, but I have a sneaking suspicion that He is very pleased when we take our Faith with us and BOLDLY approach His “ Throne Of Grace”.......That “ Super Hyper Grace “ that you Mock......Mocking something you are REALLY gonna NEEd someday.....