Why do you think faith alone saves us?

[Nomad]

Hello Miss Hepburn,

I know that you requested opinions, but on a topic of such great importance I can't help but have Scripture inform my opinion.

The reason that God has appointed faith as the means by which we embrace salvation is very simple. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins in our stead, satisfying God's justice. He did this fully and completely. In theological terms this is called penal substitutionary atonement. There's nothing left for us to do in this regard except receive God's gracious gift of life by faith.

I can certainly provide Scripture if you so desire.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Why, thank you Nomad.

Always inspiring to read more scripture!

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Yes, Benoni it is time for us to personally sup with the Lord.
To have a personal intimate relationship with Him - not through religions -
is there any other relationship? LOL!
Sometimes I imagine my brothers and sisters in bed with their new wife - still reading a manual through the night on how to make love. And anxious to quote what they've learned the next morning from the manual !!

I'm a 'diver inner' myself - both feet...all at once, even before reading the manual

I will come in to HIM and sup with HIM and he with ME.' The church of the last days is the church of the INDIVIDUAL. It is the individual believer with a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP to Christ. For the man who will forsake ALL ELSE and sup with Christ this is an age of glory, an hour of preparation such as we have never known. This is a time when the Spirit of God is speaking TO YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL. He seeks to sup and dine and feast with you apart from all the religious confusion about us.

Nice.

Miss Hepburn

 

[Adstar]

I give up.

Unfortunatly there is very little one can do with a hard core 5 point calvanist believer. And thats what benoni is.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

• [quote author=Miss Hepburnlink=topic=11486.msg75822#msg75822 date=1260249937]
  Now, what I'm aiming for is not necessarily forverses.
  I mean in your heart - in your understanding of God 's Heart...
  
  Why? Why is it so simple - why is it we just have to have faith in HisSon?
  
  
  Thank you, I look forward to your posts,
  Miss Hepburn

• 
  
  God is perfect.
  He can only accept a Perfect creation to exist with Him in Eternity.
  Therefore to have eternity with God we must become perfect.
  We are not perfect.
  We cannot achieve perfection
  We can only be changed into a perfect state by Gods intervention.
  This intervention can never be earned.
  It must be a gift.
  So if we are transformed into a perfect state then there can be no boasting on our part.
  Therefore all Glory and Honour rests with God who has achieved the Redemption of His creation by His own Works.
  
  Therefore our works while we do them out of Love for God and Love for our Neighbour.
  And our efforts to resist sin while being noble showing agreement with the will of God.
  Can never reach a point of perfection that would justify eternity with God on their own merit.
  
  Therefore all talk of Works earning ones eternity with God is nothing but the pride of man striving to earn self-justification.
  
  
  The gift of salvation from God can only be a gift if it is not payed for. Once you pay for a gift then the gift becomes a payment. Indeed seeking to pay for the gift is an insult to the gift Giver. How would you feel if you when through hell on earth to obtain a gift for someone you love and for them to turn around and offer money for it?
  
  
  All Praise The Ancient Of Days

My friend, you have some dangerous statements in your post, the one highlighted may be the most dangerous.

[/quote]

Then bring forth the resion for your statement. Otherwise it is just a statement based on ?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Nomad]

I give up.

Unfortunatly there is very little one can do with a hard core 5 point calvanist believer. And thats what benoni is.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hi Adstar,

I'm a confessional five point Calvinist. Despite Benoni's never ending emphasis on God's sovereignty and predestination, I can assure you that he is not a Calvinist. His teachings are unbalanced, exaggerated and do not come even close to any Reformed confessional documents. But thanks. I do appreciate your reply.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Regardless of view,, Calvinistic or Arminian, or Catholic,,, which ever...

The fact is, WITHOUT FAITH YOU CAN NOT BE SAVED. The fact still remains that WORKS CAN NOT SAVE.

So, now that we understand those two important things.....

We can see how each can read a verse in the Bible and it seems to say something different to them than it would to another. It really doesn't matter if you believe that we have free will, or we don't.

It pretty much just boils down to evangelist styles. Where, if you believe that only God can draw people, then you probably dont' preach to others as much. You more than likely depend on God sending people to you, or you being sent to people.

If you believe that we have free will, you may preach more to others, or debate a little bit more, and try to convince and reason with others to "get" them to believe. But, you also believe that God will send people to you, or send you to people.

Meh,, 6 of one half a dozen of the other. It's the same goal, and basicaly the same belief. The only difference is the debate with eachother, which causes division, and it's not needed at all.

There is strong support for both views, however,, since we're human, and we do have a certain amount of freedom in Jesus Christ, we're not bound to anothers doctrines, be they true or false. The Word of God speaks for itself, and since the Word of God is Spirit, and is Living, that makes it more like music.

One person hears music and can focus on the back beat (those are primarily the ones that like Rock N Roll type music) another person can focus on the up beat (those are primarily the ones that like Country and Gospel type music)

So, the beats are the same, just used in different styles, but with the same count,, 4/4 or what ever. What's more, if you compare the Bible to the tonic scale, you'll notice,, that all the "western" (IE, not middle eastern) types of music use the 12 note tonic scale. So, Every style of "western" music, uses the same tools, but forms to a different idea.

Even though these all seem so diversified, you can clearly see that the goal and the tools are exactly the same, even the hearts of the muscians are exactly the same. They have a love for music, and a skill for producing it according to the understandings they were blessed with, be it coultural, or aquired.

One people, One goal, One God. It's all the same.

 

[Nomad]

Where, if you believe that only God can draw people, then you probably dont' preach to others as much. You more than likely depend on God sending people to you, or you being sent to people.

This is not the Calvinist position on evangelism at all. Christ comands us to witness to all indiscriminately, not sit back and wait for the elect to be hand delivered. Many of the famous missionaries and preachers of centuries past were all Calvinist. Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, and David Brainard are all good examples. Modern Calvinist congregations not only support overseas missions, we also actively engage in evangelism through community outreach programs.

With all due respect, I think it would benefit you greatly to do a little research in order to fairly and accurately represent Calvinist belief.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Where, if you believe that only God can draw people, then you probably dont' preach to others as much. You more than likely depend on God sending people to you, or you being sent to people.

This is not the Calvinist position on evangelism at all. Christ comands us to witness to all indiscriminately, not sit back and wait for the elect to be hand delivered. Many of the famous missionaries and preachers of centuries past were all Calvinist. Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, and David Brainard are all good examples. Modern Calvinist congregations not only support overseas missions, we also actively engage in evangelism through community outreach programs.

With all due respect, I think it would benefit you greatly to do a little research in order to fairly and accurately represent Calvinist belief.

I wasn't meaning to represent Calvinists. But, in all fairness I did say, "Probably" and "as much" not meaning to say that people don't, or wont.

Sorry, I realize you aren't that aquainted with me and my "style" of thinking or presenting my thoughts. All I was meaning to do was quench arguing and show that the desires, and the hearts of the different types of believers are essentialy the same.

I'm sorry if you misunderstood.

 

[Nomad]

I'm sorry if you misunderstood.

What exactly did I misunderstand? You made a statement regarding what Calvinists believe about preaching and evangelism. "Probably" and "as much" is just as incorrect and "definately" and "never." You either said it or you didn't. It's either correct or it's not. You did say it and it is incorrect. There's nothing here to misunderstand.

 

[Benoni]

Nomad is correct for once, my believe has nothing to do with the false teaching of Calvinism. Nomad claims he “shaking the dust from my feet”, but this too is a lie also because he has turned to anger and personal attacks towards me, which is has nothing to do with I'm shaking the dust from my feet.

You see Nomad’s Orthodoxy is his god; just ask him.

 

[Nomad]

Anger? I don't know where you got such a ridiculous notion. I merely refuse to waste any more time with a rank heretic. You have been corrected time and time again and you persist in your universalism, anti-trinitarianism, and probably the worst case of repeated Biblical eisegesis I've ever seen. The consolation here is that you're on the verge of loosing your audience. At this point your reputation precedes you. Further refutation by me or anyone else is simply unnecessary.

 

[jerryjohnson]

Anger? I don't know where you got such a ridiculous notion. I merely refuse to waste any more time with a rank heretic. You have been corrected time and time again and you persist in your universalism, anti-trinitarianism, and probably the worst case of repeated Biblical eisegesis I've ever seen. The consolation here is that you're on the verge of loosing your audience. At this point your reputation precedes you. Further refutation by me or anyone else is simply unnecessary.

AMEN!

 

[Benoni]

What really bothers you is I have attacked your false creed with the very Bible you claim to believe in. Anti Trinitarian that is absolutely right, you show me is God’s Word where God is made up of three persons and I will believe your trinity. If you can’t show me; you’re the heretic.

You have never corrected me on one issue, if anything I have corrected your over and over again, like I said you god is orthodoxy and truth does not matter.

Yes I am a Universalist because I believe in a Jesus who does not fail.

Anger? I don't know where you got such a ridiculous notion. I merely refuse to waste any more time with a rank heretic. You have been corrected time and time again and you persist in your universalism, anti-trinitarianism, and probably the worst case of repeated Biblical eisegesis I've ever seen. The consolation here is that you're on the verge of loosing your audience. At this point your reputation precedes you. Further refutation by me or anyone else is simply unnecessary.

 

[Benoni]

I have no repetition nor do I care about your religious opinion. Take the trinity you believe it not because it is in God’s Word, you believe because your false god orthodoxy tells you believe it.

Does not matter that you cannot find the word three persons any where in God’s Word, all that matters is you defend your god orthodoxy.

Look at the verses that proved your word forever did mean forever, does not matter to you because your god orthodoxy is all you care about. Does not matter that billions will be tortured forever and ever according to your false god and you make Jesus a monster who can save no one. All that matters to you if you bow to your god.

So if you think it is bad I have no repetation then please read:

1 Corin. 1:25 (amp) [This is] because the foolish thing [that has its source in] God is wiser than men, and the weak thing [that springs] from God is stronger than men.
26For [simply] consider your own call, brethren; not many [of you were considered to be] wise according to human estimates and standards, not many influential and powerful, not many of high and noble birth.
27[No] for God selected (deliberately chose) what in the world is foolish to put the wise to shame, and what the world calls weak to put the strong to shame.
28And God also selected (deliberately chose) what in the world is lowborn and insignificant and branded and treated with contempt, even the things that are nothing, that He might depose and bring to nothing the things that are,
29So that no mortal man should [have pretense for glorying and] boast in the presence of God.
30But it is from Him that you have your life in Christ Jesus, Whom God made our Wisdom from God, [revealed to us a knowledge of the divine plan of salvation previously hidden, manifesting itself as] our Righteousness [thus making us upright and putting us in right standing with God], and our Consecration [making us pure and holy], and our Redemption [providing our ransom from eternal penalty for sin].

 

[Surf Rider]

Faith is an effluent of the state of heart. This state, in turn, is the work of God. Hence, saving faith is from God. We respond to His working in us. Can good grapes come from thorns? Neither can saving faith come from sinful man.

 

[kestrel]

Th

Remeber the thief on the cross. He never had a chance to do any thing. He realised he was a sinner and deserved his fate, recognised that Jesus was innocent and then simply asked Jesus to remember him. And what was oyr Lords response," Today you will be with Me in paradise", No church, no bible, no baptism, no tithing, no pastor or priest, juts a simple recognitian of wht he was and who Jesus was. Its us who add all the overheads.

In His Love

Just read this one

Excellent.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

That argument has a problem, that the thief did not sin, as far as we can know, after receiving Jesus' assurance.

 

[kestrel]

I have no repetition nor do I care about your religious opinion. Take the trinity you believe it not because it is in God’s Word, you believe because your false god orthodoxy tells you believe it.

1. Is Jesus God?
2. If He isn't, then why did the wise men come to worship him?

 

[kestrel]

It is very common among people who hold a strong opinion on anything, be it politics, religion or whatchamacallit that those who disagree are either fool, ignorant or evil.

I, therefore, call to submit the arguments to reason, because it is always a human mind who reads and interpret the Bible, and because it is our only common ground.

 

[Benoni]

Of course Jesus is God. God manifested in the flesh. God is one not three persons. Give me one verse of scripture that declares Jesus is the second person of the trinity? Or better yet, that God is made up of three persons. I can give you all kinds of verses that declare God is one, just ask me NO PROBLEM. Just ask any Jew.

I have no repetition nor do I care about your religious opinion. Take the trinity you believe it not because it is in God’s Word, you believe because your false god orthodoxy tells you believe it.

1. Is Jesus God?
2. If He isn't, then why did the wise men come to worship him?