Why do you think faith alone saves us?

[Benoni]

AMEN. Orthadoxy is someones god. Please let us use God's Word not our bias religious opinion. God's Word is far to deep and awesome to try to control and believe you have all the answers.

The religious Mind:

Then we have the religious mind, which is far closer to carnal them spiritual; this mind is not open unless you agree with their preconceived idealism, being it Catholic, Pentecostal, JW Baptist this mind has the mind of what ever agenda listed above or one of the twenty thousand sisters of Babylon. They say they are following Christ (which means anointing) but in reality all they know is their preconceived bias.

God’s Word is like a river that flows:

Ezekiel 47: 4Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.

5Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.


How deep is your river; up to your ankles or knees; or is it so deep and mighty all you can do is float as if flows and gets deep and wider continually.


I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

I look around at the vast majority of God’s awesome people who remind me more of Lawyers defending the law according to the way they have been taught no matter how evil the law is. There is no room in their religious brain to dig deeper, or explore the most awesome book ever written; words like “new” scare them.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine; they are just like the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. Luther was a man who was called of God; Luther was not perfect; but Luther did something most Christians refuse to do; hear God and walk with the principles God had given Him. Lutherans today hear Luther and walk with the principle Luther taught them, and do not comprehend God’s Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons.

It is very common among people who hold a strong opinion on anything, be it politics, religion or whatchamacallit that those who disagree are either fool, ignorant or evil.

I, therefore, call to submit the arguments to reason, because it is always a human mind who reads and interpret the Bible, and because it is our only common ground.

 

[kestrel]

The Bible is not a book of systematic Theology, but the main source of Christian Theology. So the question lies not in whether the Bible contains the word trinity, or any definition for that matter, but rather if the trinitarian doctrine is a good model of the truth expressed in the Bible.

 

[Benoni]

The trinity doctrine is just another example of religious man trying to understand God. problem is God is one not three persons.

 

[kestrel]

I disagree. If Jesus is a person, and God the Father is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person, then the Trinitarian doctrine would seem like a good approximation.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Benoni,

What would be your take on Genesis where it says man was created in our image?
I don't get it -and it surprises me when pastors teach on these early verses and avoid any explanation or even comment on our image.
I have no religious affiliations -it's like teaching a new person how to learn guitar - no bad habits to break. So go for it, bro.

Miss Hepburn

PS In my new travels being a Christian someone said, "The Holy Spirit didn't get crucified." I just found that an interesting and new statement. Anyone care to comment?

 

[Surf Rider]

Why does it alone save us? What is faith? It is the substance of things hoped for. Now substance is not that which doesn't exist, nor is it that which is not substantive spiritually. It is not physical. It is from God. There is the faith of the damned, and the faith of the redeemed. This is evidenced by the repentance difference: repentance that leads to salvation, as stated in the Word, and the repentance of Esau, which was not of God but of selfish desires. (Similar to accepting Christ because they do not want to go to hell. Hmmmm.....) So, faith is the spiritual effluent of God which is given in conjuntion with the spiritual state of the soul, of the person. God is spiritually partuitionary, and thus faith is in sole conjunction with said state when it occurs. Thus, saved by faith. Faith isn't the vehicle, nor is it the end-all that does the actual saving. Just like the cross doesn't save. Christ does. Just like prayer doesn't have power. God does. To put your trust in faith is to misplace the trust and worship the thing instead of God. To put your trust in the cross is to misplace your trust and worship the thing instead of God. To pray to dead saints is to do the same thing. To believe in the power of prayer is to misplace your trust and worship the thing instead of God, attributing to it what God alone has sole retention of.

 

[Surf Rider]

Benoni,

What would be your take on Genesis where it says man was created in our image?
I don't get it -and it surprises me when pastors teach on these early verses and avoid any explanation or even comment on our image.
I have no religious affiliations -it's like teaching a new person how to learn guitar - no bad habits to break. So go for it, bro.

Miss Hepburn

PS In my new travels being a Christian someone said, "The Holy Spirit didn't get crucified." I just found that an interesting and new statement. Anyone care to comment?

Sorry, but if I may interject here.... (disregard this post if you so wish!)
God made man in His own image, in the image of God created He him, male and female made He them. The wordage is so, so plain and straightforward. He said it three times right there. Do we see it? It states what God is like: two. Look to the Hebrew. Does not the word for male come from/denote/have the root of piercer? And the word for female: pierced one? The sexual is merely the image of the spiritual, so that the carnal can be without excuse. Christ was pierced for our transgressions. It pleased the Father to do this. And why? The word states elsewhere, it is so that He might have godly offspring, and elsewhere, here am I, and the children you have given me. Again in Genesis, everything, yes, everything gives seed/birth/offspring after its own kind. There is no exceptions. God is partuitionary. He is no spiritual evolutionist. Grapes give grapes. Figs give figs. God gives..... What does He give? Himself: God. And no, that doesn't mean that we are equal with Him, as it says elsewhere in the NT, quoting the OT, the when all is placed under him, it is evident that He who placed all under him is excepted. Basic truth in this whole scenario: the children are not equal to the parents. Of the same being and grow into the same likeness, but not of equality. And speaking of Christ, it states that He is the express, or perfect image of the Father, being made perfect through suffering, learning obedience to His Father. We are to follow in His footsteps, and to have His mind. These things even the Pharisees understood, stating that for Him to claim to be the son of God, He made himself the same of God: of the same nature and substance. Thus we are born of the same Nature, crying out Father! It states elsewhere that we are sons, and have the full inheritance: we are to grow up in it and weild it well for Him, knowing His mind in it and thus bring Him glory thereby. Hence Psaml 82 and Christ's blunt and simple truth in stating what it is speaking of. And elsewhere, even the child, though he be heir of all, when a child or youth, does not have the use of the father's stuff, but when he matures, he then has use of it, after which we are told that we need to grow up spiritually and make use of it properly. Therefore, just as Christ knew that whatever He asked, the Father would grant. So it is with us. Thus the difference of the disciples pre/post Pentecost. Even Christ stated that those who are born of the Father would do the works that He did, and do even greater! Yet the church doesn't teach this truth, and does't do the things that Christ did, let alone do greater! Who is right? Christ or the church? I'll take Christ on this one! The very fundamentals of what it means to be BORN AGAIN, meaning that we are spiritually BORN OF GOD, thus sons/daughters of God, having His essence as our spiritual essence, or nature, seems to be not actually understood by the church, although they use the general phraseology speaking of it. And many scholars state the Peter is teaching gnositism when he states that we are PRESENT PARTICIPANTS of the nature of God. It's amazing how far some will go to circumvent the Word that would seem to clearly condemn them for falling so short of the glory of God in their lives. Perhaps this is why we see such wicked fruit: just look at the stats of the church, for it is very much identical to the world in it's sins. And yet it states that the world needs what it has, and that it has two natures within itself. It is so, so unscriptural. "by their fruit you will know them". The fruit is bad, so bad that it cannot be eaten, to quote a prophet of God in the OT. And to quote another one in the NT, you think that you are spiritually rich and well clothed, but don't know that you are naked, wretched, and poor. Look to the fruit. Look at the stats. And yet we can argue back and forth on all these topics, and all the while having wretched fruit while asserting that we personally don't. Christ stated that it is a SPIRITUAL IMPOSSIBILITY to have dirty water and clean water from the same well. The stats say that we have very, very putrid water. And all of our treatments don't work, or we wouldn't have that filthy water, would we? Pretty simple math on this stuff, really. We cannot seem to see the heart of God in Daniel, the incredible Daniel, confessing the sins of the wicked nation as his own personally. O! That we would have that heart! God does not despise a broken and contrite heart. And further on the image of God, ever wonder why Goid put Adam to sleep, then took the woman out of him? (Flesh of my flesh, bone of my bone?) This is why the NT states that Christ is the express, or exact, image of the Father. This, too, is a cool study. There is just so much Word that speaks to these things regarding the image of God, and how it is relevant to us in Him, it's just amazing. "And the two shall become one...." That, too is applicable to this topic. Interesting indeed!

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I disagree. If Jesus is a person, and God the Father is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person, then the Trinitarian doctrine would seem like a good approximation.

For me it's not that I agree or disagree with any of the statements on this thread -I just simply do not know.
I'm still a student of this whole thing...creation, God, the Universe, the Bible...and when I think I do know something I'm still not 100% sure of what I think I know.

But I get the basics ---God is everywhere and nothing would be if not for "Him". He is absolute Love and wants the best for us. And when my mind is stayed on Him I have perfect peace. The rest seems to fall into place naturally after that ---loving my neighbor, being patient, charitable, you know, everything else.

Miss Hepburn

 

[Surf Rider]

I disagree. If Jesus is a person, and God the Father is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person, then the Trinitarian doctrine would seem like a good approximation.

Who said that they were persons? When did that phrase first come into being? A quick search of church history reveals that this doctrine was progressive/. It had a starting point, it morphed more and more, and it is now where it is, and has been there for quite some time. Yet from the beginning it was not so.

 

[Benoni]

Where do you find God is a person? The Holy spirit is a person? Chapter and verse please?

I disagree. If Jesus is a person, and God the Father is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person, then the Trinitarian doctrine would seem like a good approximation.

 

[Benoni]

God is a spirit not a person, religious carnal believers have a problem with that. The Holy Spirit is that special part of God within each one of us. A devine part of God with in each one of us capable of speaking,
loving, reproving, teaching, convicting and transforming. He is not the third person of the trinity, not in any Bible I have ever studied.


One that will lead and guide us into all truth.

Benoni,

What would be your take on Genesis where it says man was created in our image?
I don't get it -and it surprises me when pastors teach on these early verses and avoid any explanation or even comment on our image.
I have no religious affiliations -it's like teaching a new person how to learn guitar - no bad habits to break. So go for it, bro.

Miss Hepburn

PS In my new travels being a Christian someone said, "The Holy Spirit didn't get crucified." I just found that an interesting and new statement. Anyone care to comment?

 

[Benoni]

Surf Rider,

Why would I disregard your post, only bias religious men cannot face the facts of God’s Word? We are suppose to seek, ask and knock not put religous man made blinders on.
I pretty much total agree with your statement but there were a lot of very interesting things that happened in Genesis. For one thing God cause the fall. Second thing is yes we were created in His image on the sixth day, on the seventh day God formed (I will say lowered) of the dust of the earth and made us a living soul. So we were no longer pure spirit like on the sixth day.

You mentioned Psalm 82: but let me take you back to Genesis before I point out a most interesting point.

The “us” is Elohim which you are correct BUT has nothing to do with the doctrine of the trinity but is one of the many names of God; this word is used all though out the Bible.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . . " Gen. 1:26. This was God’s covenant with man. This was His purpose for making man — to have a visible expression of Himself!"

It spelling or interpreted in scripture and Elohim is spelled both “god” and “God” in God’s Word for a reason, I think the translators were confused in how this name of God was used.

There is no mention of the word trinity in the word Elohim by the way

Elohim

The name of God “Elohim” The only name used in the first chapter of Genesis, is GOD, or Elohim. This is the name we need to know before all others.

If we are not children (sons) of God; then what are we? (Who are the morning stars; note plural. Jesus was called the Bright and morning star; that would be my answer Job 38:6-8 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
. Son’s of God mentioned eleven times in the Bible without hardly digging past all the bad interpretations. Look a little deeper at Ps. 82 and notice how the word Elohim was used with both a capital G and lower case; same word same meaning both Strong’s 430 and this has happen all thought out the KJV and who know what other translation. Ps 82:6-8 6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; (Elohim) you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God (Elohim) , judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance. Job1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God (Sons of Elohim) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them

 

[Benoni]

AMEN,

Men are corrupt, be it this modern age or past ages; BUT there is a difference between us now; and the past. I have the ability as well as potential to seek truth today by the spirit of God with in me instead of falsely trusting corrupt bias men I have never known. If there is any flaws in the Bible; and there is; it is because God has ordained it. NOTHING HAPPENS OUTSIDE of HIS SOVERIGN and complete will. It is our place to seek, ask and knock; not cover our eyes with blindness and fear of being deceived; that very principle will deceive you more then anything. We must seeking HIS GLORY.

If I am deceived it is not because some man made text or religion has deceived me; it is because God’s Spirit who I trust thought His word has led me astray. I following God’s anointing be it in you or someone else; to be anti anointing is the same as being anti Christ. But God’s Word does show us different types of anointing.


Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

I disagree. If Jesus is a person, and God the Father is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person, then the Trinitarian doctrine would seem like a good approximation.

For me it's not that I agree or disagree with any of the statements on this thread -I just simply do not know.
I'm still a student of this whole thing...creation, God, the Universe, the Bible...and when I think I do know something I'm still not 100% sure of what I think I know.

But I get the basics ---God is everywhere and nothing would be if not for "Him". He is absolute Love and wants the best for us. And when my mind is stayed on Him I have perfect peace. The rest seems to fall into place naturally after that ---loving my neighbor, being patient, charitable, you know, everything else.

Miss Hepburn

 

[Surf Rider]

Surf Rider,

Why would I disregard your post, only bias religious men cannot face the facts of God’s Word? We are suppose to seek, ask and knock not put religous man made blinders on.
I pretty much total agree with your statement but there were a lot of very interesting things that happened in Genesis. For one thing God cause the fall. Second thing is yes we were created in His image on the sixth day, on the seventh day God formed (I will say lowered) of the dust of the earth and made us a living soul. So we were no longer pure spirit like on the sixth day.

You mentioned Psalm 82: but let me take you back to Genesis before I point out a most interesting point.

The “us” is Elohim which you are correct BUT has nothing to do with the doctrine of the trinity but is one of the many names of God; this word is used all though out the Bible.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . . " Gen. 1:26. This was God’s covenant with man. This was His purpose for making man — to have a visible expression of Himself!"

It spelling or interpreted in scripture and Elohim is spelled both “god” and “God” in God’s Word for a reason, I think the translators were confused in how this name of God was used.

There is no mention of the word trinity in the word Elohim by the way

Elohim

The name of God “Elohim” The only name used in the first chapter of Genesis, is GOD, or Elohim. This is the name we need to know before all others.

If we are not children (sons) of God; then what are we? (Who are the morning stars; note plural. Jesus was called the Bright and morning star; that would be my answer Job 38:6-8 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
. Son’s of God mentioned eleven times in the Bible without hardly digging past all the bad interpretations. Look a little deeper at Ps. 82 and notice how the word Elohim was used with both a capital G and lower case; same word same meaning both Strong’s 430 and this has happen all thought out the KJV and who know what other translation. Ps 82:6-8 6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; (Elohim) you are all sons of the Most High.' 7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." 8 Rise up, O God (Elohim) , judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance. Job1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God (Sons of Elohim) came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them

Indeed, you have seen more than most. It is good to see that there is much more than inserted by my previous post. I see more and more of this topic as I grow in Him. It's a blast. It's just all throughout the Word.

 

[Surf Rider]

And on the elohim, I get a kick out of how the church has mangled that to their own ends, and the progression of twisting that is readily seen, too, in church history. Even now there are yet many who can't seem to agree whether it means 3, 3 or more, 2, 2 or more, 1, 1 or more. If it wasn't so important as regards to it revealing the heart state of man and the church which is called by His Name, it could almost be humorous. I used to chuckle over it, but now I'm deeply saddened by it. Looking at the symptoms, the church doesn't seem to be all the healthy. That's tragically sad. What can we do about it for His name's sake?

 

[Benoni]

I do not see the church called by His name, it is the overcomer God is truly calling.

In His great victory over the power of Satan He was a sign that pointed unerringly to another company of overcoming sons. In all the churches of Revelation there were two classes of people — those who were overcomers and those who were not. It is to the overcomers that the glorious promises are given, for they follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth, have partaken of His mind and of His will, and thus are equipped to reign in His kingdom.

Thus to them it is said: "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev. 2:7. "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Rev. 2:11. "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Rev. 2:17. "He that overcometh and keepeth My works to the end, to him will I give/wnw over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessel of the potter shall they be broken to shivers even as I received of My Father, and I will give him the morning star." Rev. 2:26-28. "He that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God and he shall go no more out and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name." Rev. 3:12, 13. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne even as I overcame and am set down with My Father in His throne." Rev. 3:21. "He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches."

 

[kestrel]

Who said that they were persons?  When did that phrase first come into being?  A quick search of church history reveals that this doctrine was progressive/.  It had a starting point, it morphed more and more, and it is now where it is, and has been there for quite some time.  Yet from the beginning it was not so.

A person, in theology, is any rational being able to communicate with others.

Is the Holy Spirit able to communicate with others?

Is the Holy Spirit rational?

Is Jesus rational?

Is Jesus able to communicate with others?

Is the Father rational?

Is the Father able to communicate with others?

 

[Benoni]

What does rational have to do with spiritual matters. God is a spirit and humans are rational when it comes to human understanding. Spiritual understanding is something not of this world.


Even the term “spiritual” indicates that it requires the power and ability of the SPIRIT, or that it is an expression of the SPIRIT. Therefore, when we walk in the Spirit and are led by the Spirit, what flows out of us is a dispensation of the life and glory and power and wisdom and nature and will of God Himself — that is spiritual! Sinners can’t do that! The carnal mind can’t produce that! The fleshly nature can’t generate that! Self-effort is eternally and completely unable to perform that! Answered prayer — that’s spiritual. Deliverance and transformation — that’s spiritual. Speaking the words of God — that’s spiritual. Loving your enemies — that’s spiritual. Blessing them that curse you — that’s spiritual. The peace that passeth understanding — that’s spiritual. Laying down your life for creation — that’s spiritual. Putting on the mind of Christ — that’s spiritual. Being led by the Spirit of God — that’s spiritual. Money can’t buy these things. The natural man can’t mimic these things. These are the true riches! There is nothing rational in thing that are spiritual.

 

[kestrel]

What does rational have to do with spiritual matters. God is a spirit and humans are rational when it comes to human understanding. Spiritual understanding is something not of this world.


Even the term “spiritual” indicates that it requires the power and ability of the SPIRIT, or that it is an expression of the SPIRIT. Therefore, when we walk in the Spirit and are led by the Spirit, what flows out of us is a dispensation of the life and glory and power and wisdom and nature and will of God Himself — that is spiritual! Sinners can’t do that! The carnal mind can’t produce that! The fleshly nature can’t generate that! Self-effort is eternally and completely unable to perform that! Answered prayer — that’s spiritual. Deliverance and transformation — that’s spiritual. Speaking the words of God — that’s spiritual. Loving your enemies — that’s spiritual. Blessing them that curse you — that’s spiritual. The peace that passeth understanding — that’s spiritual. Laying down your life for creation — that’s spiritual. Putting on the mind of Christ — that’s spiritual. Being led by the Spirit of God — that’s spiritual. Money can’t buy these things. The natural man can’t mimic these things. These are the true riches! There is nothing rational in thing that are spiritual.

Because we are discussing our ideas about God. The Mormons will ask you to pray and the truth shall be revealed to you. Catholics monks do a lectio divina, a spritual reading of Scripture praying to the Holy Spirit so He reveals truth. A Pentecostal will sing God's praises, asking God for the Truth to be known, a Baptist can also feel a deep communion with God while in Church. A God, praise Him, can choose to answer those prayers and means, no matter how feeble they truly are.

But I cannot step inside your mind or your spirit, and neither you can step in mine. I have no idea if you are a saint, a teenager having fun out of Christians or somebody else. Neither you can. I can't accept what you feel you have been answered in prayer because I have no way to tell if they are true or not. Or, are you accepting the visions of St John of the Cross? Are you accepting the dreams of St John Bosco? Not even Roman Catholics are obliged to. Are you accepting the intimate feeling of God that the Muslim mystic experience?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-mW1BRM2tY&feature=related

I don't accept those, but I can't negate them with any rational argument. These are intimate experiences that can't be ultimately transmitted. The most I can hope for, is to share my love for the Lord and humbly listen to their experience.

What we can do is to discuss our ideas about God, because our ideas are rational construct whose validity can be measured. When you are attacking the doctrine of Trinity, you are attacking a rational idea. If it doesn't make any sense, it should be possible to show it. If it's incoherent with Scripture, it can be shown too. But if I say: "God told me" it's just like the old-fashioned "Mom told me".

 

[Benoni]

[Religion is rational; our spiritual life is not of this world. When it comes to the religions of the world I am a Christian but I also know and understand, and by no means am I am going to condemn the world for its religious beliefs. My daughter’s Mother in law is a Catholic and will probably die a Catholic for that is the abode God has put her in. In my Fathers house are many mansions; or Greek abiding place. All people have a different abiding place then me. My place is not to condemn that abiding place but to seek, ask and knock to know God in a deeper abiding place that I am now. If God has not called you in another abiding place/spiritual room/spiritual plane/deeper understanding then that is all you can understand. Many are shallow, superficial, and religious or where ever God has placed them; you cannot change that; only God’s spirit has that power to draw all men to Himself or change that persons understanding. Do I accept these false understanding, yes and no. Yes because that is where God has placed them, no because they are wrong. But we all see in part, know in part this I accept and this is scriptural.

Now in reference to the doctrine of the trinity If it is so “incoherent with Scripture” then you show me in God’s Word not your human rational understanding. God is one. This doctrine is nothing but a religious doctrine and if it was so scriptural as you all try to defend please show me where God is the first person of the trinity, Jesus is the second person and the HS is the third person. You are offended because I have a valid scriptural point.

quote name='kestrel' date='19 December 2009 - 08:59 PM' timestamp='1261256396' post='76233']
Because we are discussing our ideas about God. The Mormons will ask you to pray and the truth shall be revealed to you. Catholics monks do a lectio divina, a spritual reading of Scripture praying to the Holy Spirit so He reveals truth. A Pentecostal will sing God's praises, asking God for the Truth to be known, a Baptist can also feel a deep communion with God while in Church. A God, praise Him, can choose to answer those prayers and means, no matter how feeble they truly are.

But I cannot step inside your mind or your spirit, and neither you can step in mine. I have no idea if you are a saint, a teenager having fun out of Christians or somebody else. Neither you can. I can't accept what you feel you have been answered in prayer because I have no way to tell if they are true or not. Or, are you accepting the visions of St John of the Cross? Are you accepting the dreams of St John Bosco? Not even Roman Catholics are obliged to. Are you accepting the intimate feeling of God that the Muslim mystic experience?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-mW1BRM2tY&feature=related

I don't accept those, but I can't negate them with any rational argument. These are intimate experiences that can't be ultimately transmitted. The most I can hope for, is to share my love for the Lord and humbly listen to their experience.

What we can do is to discuss our ideas about God, because our ideas are rational construct whose validity can be measured. When you are attacking the doctrine of Trinity, you are attacking a rational idea. If it doesn't make any sense, it should be possible to show it. If it's incoherent with Scripture, it can be shown too. But if I say: "God told me" it's just like the old-fashioned "Mom told me".

[/quote]