Why does God give people over to a reprobate mind?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:4
A Call to Prayer

1First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be offered for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority—so that we may lead tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

God is always calling, in my opinion which may be not worth much.

You know @robert derrick having noticed that my post only deals with the first portion of the book of Romans, and not the whole thing, it is good that once a person can let themselves come to the truth of God, they will either choose to allow him to move into their hearts in faith of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ in which they are made right with God.

Anyone can come to God and non are barred from Him thanks to the Lord Jesus Christ! It is simply the choice of individuals to seek out God in faith or not, and God is always calling to them, and can be known from simply the creation (Stars, Moon, Sun, Rivers, Mountains, Animals, Human beings) itself.
Yes, that is your opinion, but not Scripture.

No man can come to God, except God draw us, and Scripture shows where God will give up on drawing certain souls for certain reasons.

Idolatry, blaspheming the Spirit, despising the Spirit of grace, refusing the conviction of the Spirit for sin, etc...

That is why we are warned not to be high-minded, but continue in the fear of the Lord, lest we too be broken off and castaway, even as the unbelieving Jews.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,195
4,957
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You know when the people at Rome received the letter from Paul, they were going to have to read the whole letter in full to those saints in Christ whom where in Rome.

The fullness of the Apostle Paul’s Letter you can read and understand the more great growth is there for the Christian who is seeking God in faith.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Reading any letter of an apostle to the full is wise, as well as any book of gospel and prophet.

It doesn't mean anyone is guaranteed to grow in true knowledge of the doctrine of Christ.

Plenty of false teachers abound, that have read the whole Bible through and through, and continue to read Scripture daily.

They just simply keep reading into Scripture, what they have already decided to believe anyway.

Now, if any man comes to Scripture as a little child, without preconceived imaginations, but to only believe it as written, then there can be great growth in the knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ and God.

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,647
6,442
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
Now, if any man comes to Scripture as a little child, without preconceived imaginations, but to only believe it as written, then there can be great growth in the knowledge of the truth of Jesus Christ and God.

Once again Robert, you post has proven that you have no understanding of the NT, or anything that Paul teaches, regarding how a person is to receive revelation from the word of God
So I'll tell you, and then Robert, you can again quote me in a future post without naming me, so that you can pretend next time, that you knew it all along.

Its very simple, Robert.
The bible, is a spiritual book, that speaks only to the born again again Spirit as/by REVELATION.
This has nothing to do with coming to the bible with a child like mind, tho you do qualify.
I agree with you about that fact.

Listen,
The bible has to be Spiritually Discerned, by the born again person like this..

= "He that is Spiritual, discerns all things"..

And that is not talking about a Cultist, a heretic, who pretends to be spiritual on a FORUM, and posts endless verses, endless redundant Threads... in their lame and deceitful attempt to CON and FOOL real believers, into thinking that this verse posting liar, is "spiritual".

So, to understand the word of God is only by being literally connected to the Spirit of God, by being born again into the Spirit of God by the Holy Spirit of God.
And once you have that, then God will reveal to your Spirit the LIGHT of Revelation, that is the "discernment" that Paul teaches is to "rightly divide" the Word of God.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Once again Robert, you post has proven that you have no understanding of the NT, or anything that Paul teaches, regarding how a person is to receive revelation from the word of God
So I'll tell you, and then Robert, you can again quote me in a future post without naming me, so that you can pretend next time, that you knew it all along.

Its very simple, Robert.
The bible, is a spiritual book, that speaks only to the born again again Spirit as/by REVELATION.
This has nothing to do with coming to the bible with a child like mind, tho you do qualify.
I agree with you about that fact.

Listen,
The bible has to be Spiritually Discerned, by the born again person like this..

= "He that is Spiritual, discerns all things"..

And that is not talking about a Cultist, a heretic, who pretends to be spiritual on a FORUM, and posts endless verses, endless redundant Threads... in their lame and deceitful attempt to CON and FOOL real believers, into thinking that this verse posting liar, is "spiritual".

So, to understand the word of God is only by being literally connected to the Spirit of God, by being born again into the Spirit of God by the Holy Spirit of God.
And once you have that, then God will reveal to your Spirit the LIGHT of Revelation, that is the "discernment" that Paul teaches is to "rightly divide" the Word of God.
Once again, you show a case study of rejecting something, without showing why. I really do believe there are Christians that reject the truth of Scripture, simply because they don't like it. It's the 'faith alone' syndrome of thinking our own faith alone is all that matters. They only believe what they want to believe, and they believe what they want to believe really does matter to God, because they are saved and justified by their own will-power to believe it.

They think they can doctrinally speak their own heaven and earth into existence, because God will create it for them, as though they were their own word of power proceeding from the mouth of God. It's the old lie of that old serpent the devil, who says man can become as gods in their own right, to choose for themselves what is good and evil, and then do both good and evil forever, and it must be acceptable to God, simply because they believe it.

I don't like the word 'connected'. It's used by Christians who think the family of God is a social network.

I prefer Scriptural words to speak of the spiritual things of God, such has having the Spirit dwelling within our souls.

Rightly dividing the word of truth, begins with first rightly dividing between what is written, and what is not.

A trademark of false teachers, is to say a lot of things that are not written in Scripture, but are only from their own mind and imagination, which is produced by their own faith alone. Even Balaam had enough righteousness to know the difference between the true and a lie:

If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the commandment of the LORD, to do either good or bad of mine own mind; but what the LORD saith, that will I speak?

Unfortunately, I can't make another teaching from anything you've said here, because you really haven't said anything worth quoting. But, I'm glad to see you've returned to the flame once again. I really thought you finally had enough of me, when I challenged you to leave me alone. In any case, I certainly hope your bottomless well hasn't run dry. I'd love to see some new way of erring from the truth from you.

It truly is fascinating to see how the mind of sin works. Sometimes I stand back in astonishment, when I understand exactly where they're coming from, because I could never have thought that way on my own. Like John, I actually have a sense of admiration for it's twisted ingenuity:

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

And speaking of spiritual things of Scripture, the blood of the saints here is not carnal, but spiritual, because our warfare is not carnal but spiritual, in casting down lies of vain imagination taught for truth of Scripture.

One of the great tribulations of the elect is to endure false doctrine, without swallowing it down into the heart, and becoming a twofold more a child of hell, than the one proselytizing them.

False apostles of a cursed gospel, just love to convert others to their own faith alone, because they actually believe there is strength and safety in numbers, when all it does is ensure their own destruction, by defiling the temple and body of Christ: they lure the ingorant in Christ to once again do those works of flesh, that they were clean escaped from.

Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children.

They cannot cease from sinning, because they don't want to, and so they imagine for themselves doctrine enough to justify themselves, while continuing in sin.

One such lie is so silly, that it only works with silly children: Unrighteous works of the flesh, are no more sinful for certain Christians to do, that have learned to cast off the law of Christ altogether, by the power of their own faith alone. They imagine they can no longer by judged as sinners and condemned as transgressors against any law, that says fornication, drunkenness, theft, etc... is a work of the flesh. They cast off any such law by two means: Because it's law, and especially because it's law written on paper. And so, they can now freely do any of those works of the flesh condemned by the law of Christ in Scripture, with no more condemnation of sinning. Voila! I can do works of the flesh, as I like, with no more condemnation, because they are no longer sin to me. All because I have doctrinally done away with the law on paper, that calls them unrighteousness and sin.

That is a classic one that I've shared with other Christians, and they are just as astounded as me, when they understand it. They just can't believe any Christian could even think like that, much less believe and do it. Some even think I'm making it up, as though I had the delusional capacity to do so. I have the ability to understand, and even teach it, if I wanted, but I could never think it up for myself. After all, I'm not trying to justify myself without works of faith, while still doing unrighteous works of the flesh.

I'm not trying to be a self-justified Christian sinner. And the more I read things from those who are seeking to be unrighteous Christian sinners to the grave, the less I want to even think like them, much less be like them.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,647
6,442
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
I'm not trying to be a self-justified Christian sinner.

What you are pretending to be is a bible authority.
Unfortunately, you're not.
Ive read your Threads, and for a long time you had OSAS on the brain, as the only topic you could rant about, but that's been cut off for the benefit of the real believers on the forum.
So, now all you have left is to talk about works or sin., as that is your Theology.
And you'll do it again, Robert., as its your "faith" on parade.
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
What you are pretending to be is a bible authority.
Unfortunately, you're not.
Ive read your Threads, and for a long time you had OSAS on the brain, as the only topic you could rant about, but that's been cut off for the benefit of the real believers on the forum.
So, now all you have left is to talk about works or sin., as that is your Theology.
And you'll do it again, Robert., as its your "faith" on parade.
Since you keep coming back for more, then I guess so.

However, if you become uninteresting, then I'll stop responding.

You are dangerously close. Try to think up something new about your faith alone salvation and justification, or something you haven't spoken of yet.

So far, there is:
Preforgiveness of all sins, that are still to be sinned.
Conviction for sinning is guilt-tripping by the devil.
Confessing sin with godly sorrow is foolish ignorance.
Works of flesh are not judged as sin, for those doing away with the law of Christ.
There is no more condemnation for anyone saved by their own faith alone, except unbelief in being justified by faith alone.
Seeking to do righteousness is an unrighteous practise.
Only the body is responsible for sinning, and not the soul. (Although, that ought not be necessary to teach, since the faith alone Christian can't be sinning anymore, while doing works of the flesh.)
Here's one you can come up with: Works of the flesh are not sinful, because they are just works of the flesh, and no more of the soul?
I actually could teach your stuff better, and with more inventiveness.
All babes are born children of the devil from the womb.
All Christians will be committing works of the flesh to the grave, but just not condemned for it.
Christian works of the flesh don't stink as bad as non-christians.

I'm sure there's more.
 

Behold

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2020
15,647
6,442
113
Netanya or Pensacola
Faith
Christian
Country
Israel
Since you keep coming back for more, then I guess so.
However, if you become uninteresting, then I'll stop responding.
You are dangerously close. Try to think up something new about your faith alone salvation and justification, or something you haven't spoken of yet.
So far, there is:
Preforgiveness of all sins, that are still to be sinned.

Robert,

You can't possibly believe that i could actually care, if you stopped responding to me, unless you are more deceived then i thought, and i dont think that is possible.
Listen, im not responding to you for your benefit, Robert, as long ago your post's revealed you as a legalist, deaf to truth, addicted to strife, and the victim of some seriously flawed and harmful theology.
I respond to you to REVEAL you to the other members, = to use your false theology as a stepping stone that allows for correct Pauline theology to be taught to them.

So, let me show you what i mean..
You just stated a word you made up..."pre-forgiveness"...tho more then likely this is from the cult or the commentary that rules your mind, according to your posts.
This is the same funny business, semantic wise, as another member's phrase..."Salvationist"...
Just a complete invention that is a fantasy creation.. sort of like "OSAS".

There is no such thing as "pre-forgiveness"..
But there is the fact of eternal security.... known as "the ONE TIME sacrifice for ALL SIN".......and that is the blood atonement that is accomplished by God's sacrifice of Himself as Christ Jesus, on the Cross for the sin of the world.
See that BLOOD and DEATH that God offered you and me from the CROSS? = That offer is not a "pre-forgiveness"...it is a ETERNAL Forgiveness that is the Eternal REDEMPTION that is found "in Christ".

Notice....what has happened to SIN When you read this next verse...

2 Corinthians 5:19

The Cross of Christ = has so removed sin from the world, that everyone CAN be forgiven ALL their sin. = As Jesus's Blood has accomplished that eternal forgiveness...already.....2000 yrs ago.
However, this eternal forgiveness has to be APPLIED to each person by God......and to cause this to happen, is only by giving God your faith in Jesus.
And when you do, God takes that faith and accepts it forever, to then Apply to you the "gift of Salvation" that is the eternal forgiveness of all sin that Jesus accomplished on the Cross.
And once that happens, God then causes the spirit in you to be born again into God's Spirit by the Holy Spirit.

End Result ???

= Eternal life
= Salvation
= ""Made Righteous""
= Eternal Security
= ""Having passed from death to life""
= """Translated from darkness to Light.""
= "seated in heavenly places""
= "as Christ is, so are the born again, in this world"
= "Son/Daughter of God
= "Heir of God"
="Joint Heir with Christ Jesus"

And a whole lot more.....
 

robert derrick

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2021
7,669
1,418
113
63
Houston, tx
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Robert,

You can't possibly believe that i could actually care, if you stopped responding to me, unless you are more deceived then i thought, and i dont think that is possible.
Listen, im not responding to you for your benefit, Robert, as long ago your post's revealed you as a legalist, deaf to truth, addicted to strife, and the victim of some seriously flawed and harmful theology.
I respond to you to REVEAL you to the other members, = to use your false theology as a stepping stone that allows for correct Pauline theology to be taught to them.
Dittoes, however, I'm not posing as some caregiver trying to warn others, who can decide for themselves. I do this, because I love it.

You do it, because you area moth to the flame. You can't help yourself from coming back for more. I've said so before, and still here you are.

I have learned as much truth and certainty of knowledge of the Scriptures, by the necessity of correcting errors about Scripture, as I do from reading Scripture itself.

And the corrections I have recieved, have been the most fruitful of all, such as the lie of old Jewish tradition, that all men are now born children of the devil, and are darkened by his lust coming into the world, rather than lightened by Christ.


So, let me show you what i mean..
You just stated a word you made up..."pre-forgiveness"...tho more then likely this is from the cult or the commentary that rules your mind, according to your posts.
This is the same funny business, semantic wise, as another member's phrase..."Salvationist"...
Just a complete invention that is a fantasy creation.. sort of like "OSAS".

There is no such thing as "pre-forgiveness"..
But there is the fact of eternal security.... known as "the ONE TIME sacrifice for ALL SIN".......and that is the blood atonement that is accomplished by God's sacrifice of Himself as Christ Jesus, on the Cross for the sin of the world.
See that BLOOD and DEATH that God offered you and me from the CROSS? = That offer is not a "pre-forgiveness"...it is a ETERNAL Forgiveness that is the Eternal REDEMPTION that is found "in Christ".

Already being forgiven of all sins present and future, is called preforgiven sinning, and so preforgiveness of sins: Preforgiveness ideology.

The tag makes perfect sense, and you only don't approve of it, because once again it strips your high-sounding words of all their fluff, and gets down to the dirty bone beneath.

Like most people with many fair words, they don't want to own up to the practical results of what they are:

For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

2 Corinthians 5:19

The Cross of Christ = has so removed sin from the world,

Ha! Amen and thank you again. I really thought your ditch had run dry, and yet you've added another pile of dirt to heap upon the rest.

Now the sins of the world are gone. There's no more sinning in the world.

I thought only Christians that remove the law of Christ by their own faith alone, have removed unrighteous works of the flesh, from being judged as sinful.

Now, there's no more sins in the world for God to judge at all, because they've all been removed.

I suppose this makes sense to someone, that believes Christ came to kill His own law, and remove it from the world.

I've suggested this rhetorically before, but now we see it taught by a master teacher of one's own faith alone.

and to cause this to happen, is only by giving God your faith in Jesus.

I've posted a thread already on giving God the gift of your own faith, so that He and all the stars of heaven can revel in your glorious imagination:

Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.



End Result ???

= Eternal life
= Salvation
= ""Made Righteous""
= Eternal Security
= ""Having passed from death to life""
= """Translated from darkness to Light.""
= "seated in heavenly places""
= "as Christ is, so are the born again, in this world"
= "Son/Daughter of God
= "Heir of God"
="Joint Heir with Christ Jesus"

And a whole lot more.....
I've also covered how people think they can be something only doctrinally, by their own faith alone, without doing it.

Faith alone only produces doctrine alone, but only the faithful in righteous works are justified by Christ.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

The righteous are only them doing righteousness.

The righteous are not them just agreeing God is righteous, and especially not them that teach being righteous, while teaching against doing righteousness, because they declare it not possible to do.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.
 
Last edited:

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
4,853
2,893
113
64
New Brunswick
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Italy killed the Son of God ... Israel rejected Him.
(So the wrath should fall on the Roman Empire ... which took a lot longer than God discarding the superfluous Temple in AD 70.)
You can blame them both as both are of the wicked men who crucified the Lord.
Scriptures do most assuredly say this about the Jews and by implication the Romans in charge of keeping the peace as they had armies in place and were in power over the region.

And Paul also specifically says about the Jews, God's wrath has come on them at last.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16​

New King James Version​

14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are [a]contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.


Acts 2:22-24​

New King James Version​

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [a]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [b]loosed the [c]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
4,853
2,893
113
64
New Brunswick
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Nonsense.
Paul is relating that perverted gay desires are an extreme offense to God, to the point, that God "gives them over to a reprobate mind".

You might recall that the SAME GOD, in the OT, burned them in Sodom and Gomorrah, for the same reason.

However in Romans 1, He does not burn them., ..>He "gives them over to a reprobate mind".
The burning is temporarily delayed, but he will burn them all with fire unquenchable. There will be no escape.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
4,853
2,893
113
64
New Brunswick
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Think "collateral damage".
AIDS spreads into the straight population through tainted blood transfusions and by bisexuals infecting women etc, meaning even kids can catch it in roundabout ways.
yes, the innocent also suffer in this world due to the depraved acts of others.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dropship

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
4,853
2,893
113
64
New Brunswick
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
One of the few problems that I managed to avoid. I never had to wonder if I was reprobate before "but God" [Ephesians 2:4] ... I knew it for sure.
Well I view being given over to a reprobated mind means God has no intention of leading you to Christ, as your being firmly sealed into filling up the measure of your sins, as you're not the called according to His purpose. Given over seems to imply abandoning you to a certain doom. It is a very good chance you will never become a believer. This is of course not absolute as God may have His upward call on you and I am not God to know or control events and circumstances. Paul though being an insolent man and likely in appearance to others reprobate (like to the church members he was arresting and killing), obtained mercy from God to know the truth.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2019
1,879
938
113
62
Port Richey, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Well I view being given over to a reprobated mind means God has no intention of leading you to Christ, as your being firmly sealed into filling up the measure of your sins, as you're not the called according to His purpose. Given over seems to imply abandoning you to a certain doom. It is a very good chance you will never become a believer. This is of course not absolute as God may have His upward call on you and I am not God to know or control events and circumstances. Paul though being an insolent man and likely in appearance to others reprobate (like to the church members he was arresting and killing), obtained mercy from God to know the truth.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
When you set your enemies on fire (prior to God laying claim to you), one can be reasonable confident that one has advanced pretty far down the "WIDE ROAD" towards destruction ... one might say "sprinted ahead of the crowd". Thoughts of "Thank God I am not a sinner like that tax collector" is not something that I struggled with. ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Scott Downey

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
4,853
2,893
113
64
New Brunswick
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
And you can't really say Paul was given over to a reprobate mind, as Paul says he received the knowledge of salvation in Christ by divine revelation from God. And Paul says this about himself,

Acts 9
And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
-------------------------
v5, specifically mention God and Christ pricking Saul (Paul), which means Paul was not given over to reprobate mind to fill up the measure of his sins, God was goading Paul, driving Paul towards Himself in Christ. Paul was being directed, as in having his footsteps directed towards Christ, yet Paul was resisting a long time, so God made His big move on Paul with the result as Paul's salvation and him being a chosen apostle.
So then Paul was not reprobated by God. God had a purpose to save Paul and have him write much church doctrine and a missionary apostle.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
4,853
2,893
113
64
New Brunswick
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Paul also says this, that our calling, (if you are a believer in Christ), God placed on us to be in Christ before time began to belong to Him.
And this is accomplished through the power of God, whose purpose cannot be ultimately resisted.

2 Timothy 1

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

11 to which I was appointed a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher [c]of the Gentiles.

12 For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

AMP says it this way.
And this is for them the God has saved, not all people.


AMP
for He delivered us and saved us and called us with a holy calling [a calling that leads to a consecrated life—a life set apart—a life of purpose], not because of our works [or because of any personal merit—we could do nothing to earn this], but because of His own purpose and grace [His amazing, undeserved favor] which was granted to us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago],

Jesus also says God must grant our faith and belief in the Son, or we depart from Christ in unbelief, being reprobated.
Your either saved by His mercy or you're reprobated and lost. There is nothing in between this. saved or condemned, there is no other eternal state of existence.

John 6

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”
 
Last edited:

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Matthew-- about the best 'specific' concrete example of this that I can find is from the old testament account of the Nehustan.

Numbers 21--

Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

Some five hundred years later as recorded in 2 Kings 18 we see that the people had "exchanged the truth for a lie" and were serving the created thing instead of the Creator who saved them from destruction.

He (King Hezekiah) removed the high places and broke down the sacred pillars and cut down the Asherah. He also broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the sons of Israel burned incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan.

It's significant (but mostly ignored by Christians) that Jesus says this>>

“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in him have eternal life."

Jesus makes a direct comparison between himself and the Nehustan, which was to be looked upon in faith, but not worshipped. It is God who saves. The Nehustan was a means to an end in that one had to 'look upon' it in faith, not that it saved you-- but knowing that it's purpose was to bring about salvation, which only comes by the will of God through whatever manner He chooses. The created versus the Creator. It's specifically why the messenger (angel) of Jesus Christ in his Revelation tells John when he falls on his knees to worship--

“Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.”
i tried to bring this up a couple years ago here, but the point was mostly ignored i think. Kinda hard to relate Nehushtan worship with what we call ”Christianity“ now i guess, but there it is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mr E

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,195
4,957
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You can blame them both as both are of the wicked men who crucified the Lord.
Scriptures do most assuredly say this about the Jews and by implication the Romans in charge of keeping the peace as they had armies in place and were in power over the region.

And Paul also specifically says about the Jews, God's wrath has come on them at last.

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16​

New King James Version​

14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are [a]contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.


Acts 2:22-24​

New King James Version​

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [a]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [b]loosed the [c]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
That is context, good job Scott.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
11,738
2,521
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why did God do it?’

Paul is very clear.
Blaming God for 'their' choice to sin is terrible error. God will punish someone because of... THEIR CHOICE to sin, but God is not THE ONE WHO CAUSED THEIR SIN.

So I suggest you re-adjust your thinking that is error.

And just in case you think to quote Isaiah 45:7 which says God creates evil, many don't understand that either, and the atheists love to use that against Christians.

God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL. Satan is. The original first sin was by Satan himself in the old world when he coveted God's Throne for himself. Then God brought this 2nd world earth age of today, and placed today's creation in bondage to corruption (including us), giving Satan authority to do evil, and also... to act as a punishing rod for God, upon the rebellious.

So when Isaiah 45:7 says God creates evil, it actually means God USES evil as a punishing upon the REBELLIOUS, for THIS world. In the world to come, that punishing will be over, as those who think to rebel will be no more.

So God authorizing Satan to do evil upon the rebellious as punishment, is that God doing it? or is it the rebellious doing it upon themselves? It's the rebellious that bring upon themselves! Keep in God's Grace = His blessings. Rebel against God = His punishment via His punishing rod, i.e., Satan.