Why does God give people over to a reprobate mind?

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Scott Downey

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Blaming God for 'their' choice to sin is terrible error. God will punish someone because of... THEIR CHOICE to sin, but God is not THE ONE WHO CAUSED THEIR SIN.

So I suggest you re-adjust your thinking that is error.

And just in case you think to quote Isaiah 45:7 which says God creates evil, many don't understand that either, and the atheists love to use that against Christians.

God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL. Satan is. The original first sin was by Satan himself in the old world when he coveted God's Throne for himself. Then God brought this 2nd world earth age of today, and placed today's creation in bondage to corruption (including us), giving Satan authority to do evil, and also... to act as a punishing rod for God, upon the rebellious.

So when Isaiah 45:7 says God creates evil, it actually means God USES evil as a punishing upon the REBELLIOUS, for THIS world. In the world to come, that punishing will be over, as those who think to rebel will be no more.

So God authorizing Satan to do evil upon the rebellious as punishment, is that God doing it? or is it the rebellious doing it upon themselves? It's the rebellious that bring upon themselves! Keep in God's Grace = His blessings. Rebel against God = His punishment via His punishing rod, i.e., Satan.
You must be aided into salvation by Christ's (God's) help as people being naturally minded, Jesus says those of the world hate HIM and His Father as he tells them their works are evil, and they are evil works. The good works we do as believers, God prepared for us to do beforehand, so they did not originate with us, as we are His workmanship, we did not save ourselves or make us to be who we are, God did that for those who are the saved. Ephesians 2:10

Hebrews 2, Christ only aids to salvation the seed of Abraham, that would be those who are like Isaac was, a child of the promise God made that Abraham would have a son (an heir)

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Thos whom he helps to salvation are the children God has given to Christ. Like Isaac was given as a promised child. God did this for the sake of Christ that He would have many brothers.
Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Galatians 4
27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

Galatians 3
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If you have no faith, then you are not a child of God as you have not been born again, born into the family of God, you are an outsider without hope and without God in the world and dying you will perish in hell.
Only those who are OF GOD hear the words of Christ and believe in Him, as they have been born again and only they will be saved.
The world does not hear God speak, they do not listen to God, they have no fear of God for their soul.


John 8
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”

27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.

Then Christ tells them they are liars, as they have no love for the Son. If they loved God, they would have loved Christ, but they hated Him. They were not His children, given to Him by the Father, they were not of God (as in born of God by the Spirit) and so then could not hear Him and believe. You must first be born again to enter the kingdom of God, to know who the Son is.

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
 

Davy

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You must be aided into salvation by Christ's (God's) help as people being naturally minded, Jesus says those of the world hate HIM and His Father as he tells them their works are evil, and they are evil works. The good works we do as believers, God prepared for us to do beforehand, so they did not originate with us, as we are His workmanship, we did not save ourselves or make us to be who we are, God did that for those who are the saved. Ephesians 2:10

Hebrews 2, Christ only aids to salvation the seed of Abraham, that would be those who are like Isaac was, a child of the promise God made that Abraham would have a son (an heir)

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”
And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Thos whom he helps to salvation are the children God has given to Christ. Like Isaac was given as a promised child. God did this for the sake of Christ that He would have many brothers.
Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Galatians 4
27 For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

Galatians 3
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If you have no faith, then you are not a child of God as you have not been born again, born into the family of God, you are an outsider without hope and without God in the world and dying you will perish in hell.
Only those who are OF GOD hear the words of Christ and believe in Him, as they have been born again and only they will be saved.
The world does not hear God speak, they do not listen to God, they have no fear of God for their soul.


John 8
23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”

27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father.

Then Christ tells them they are liars, as they have no love for the Son. If they loved God, they would have loved Christ, but they hated Him. They were not His children, given to Him by the Father, they were not of God (as in born of God by the Spirit) and so then could not hear Him and believe. You must first be born again to enter the kingdom of God, to know who the Son is.

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
So you didn't understand a thing... I said.
 

Scott Downey

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So you didn't understand a thing... I said.
I tend to stick to the scripture for understanding spiritual things, I am just describing things the way they are.
I also am not just responding to any particular person here. Don't take it personally.

Yes, God does not tempt anyone to do evil, and God can not lie.

My earlier response to you is showing that people are naturally evil and wicked, ungodly. And must be aided to salvation.
 

Davy

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I tend to stick to the scripture for understanding spiritual things, I am just describing things the way they are.
I disagree that you are doing what you claim. It's obvious you didn't understand what I said because your understanding hasn't covered those Scriptures I mentioned. So instead, you just steer around them with your 'own' ideas about those who are called or chosen, staying in the NT only.
 

robert derrick

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Thos whom he helps to salvation are the children God has given to Christ. Like Isaac was given as a promised child. God did this for the sake of Christ that He would have many brothers.
Romans 8

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.


The good works we do as believers, God prepared for us to do beforehand, so they did not originate with us, as we are His workmanship, we did not save ourselves or make us to be who we are, God did that for those who are the saved. Ephesians 2:10

Interesting way of putting it.

The good works of all saints, and God's righteousness were performed by our example, the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world.

And so all such good works and righteousness has already been done by Jesus on earth. Once we receive Him, we are given power to become sons and brethren, to do the same as He already did.

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

And so by His faith and Spirit, we perform that which is ordained from the beginning, and is written of in the days of His flesh. Those works are already manifest to all the world, but they are only done by them that believe and obey Him.

They do not originate with us, since they have already been done before, but they do begin in us by doing our part hand in hand with Jesus.
 

Scott Downey

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I disagree that you are doing what you claim. It's obvious you didn't understand what I said because your understanding hasn't covered those Scriptures I mentioned. So instead, you just steer around them with your 'own' ideas about those who are called or chosen, staying in the NT only.
The NEW Covenant supersedes the old covenant, and it has passed away being obsolete. It seems you don't agree with the scriptures then. you cannot just disregard what they teach as they are for us today. Jesus taught us, this is the New Covenant in my blood.

Luke 22:20
Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

People who prefer their opinion over what scripture says are not in a good place.
Here is what scripture says about the old versus the new covenant, and also how it works differently, in fact it much superior in every way being a great salvation by grace and mercy alone and not by works.

AND you do not interpret NC scriptures from the OC scriptures. Actually, the other way around as the mystery of God is more fully revealed in the NT scriptures. And they tie in together very well. I am so glad I am not an old covenant person.

Hebrews 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant​

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

v10, v11 and 12 are very good descriptions of how the NC works. No one today is taught to know the LORD. God does this for us, we know Him as we are born again, according to his purpose and will, as we are granted to know Christ and God.

Luke 10:22
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
 
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Mr E

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i tried to bring this up a couple years ago here, but the point was mostly ignored i think. Kinda hard to relate Nehushtan worship with what we call ”Christianity“ now i guess, but there it is.

It’s significant in that Jesus himself is drawing the parallel. He’s saying the Nehushtan was an “instrument” used by God for His purposes. Next thing you know, people were worshipping the vessel as if it had some special powers of its own, rather than the One who empowered it (God, not Moses or anyone else). If you can accept it- he’s saying ‘I’m just like that snake on a pole.’

People tend to worship the created things that they can see and touch instead of the invisible One.
 
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MatthewG

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Okay Davy.

When it comes to the wrath of God I believe it was poured out in Israel in 70Ad. Satan and his angels have been taken care of, sin, death, hell/hades/Sheol.

I believe God in his good pleasure and will to create with the ability in mind for the creation to think is a wonderful thing, it goes to simply show how us human beings just like the heavenly angels having free choice how good God is.

Though many people don’t see Jesus having come back in 70Ad and wrapping that old age up. My view is Jesus came back and those waiting did see him.

Maybe I am in error but don’t believe so, maybe I been deceived too, and because of me being deceived I probably deceive others in their mind due to strange faith based reasons.
 

MatthewG

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People are going to have their ideas and opinions on what scripture is saying depending on their own subjective perspective and view.

the Bible dealt with the Chosen nation of Israel (Which came way by Abraham) who eventually from the line of David, the messiah would be born and fulfill all things of the law and prophets.

The chosen nation of Israel rejected the Son of God, and had him killed on the Cross.

There are people who believe even now today the wrath of God fell on the Son of God, but that doesn't make sense. Jesus never did anything wrong to be punished for in the sense of God's Wrath - He did suffer on behalf of the world and it's sin though, and paid that price.

The Wrath had to come down on someone for their disobedience, that was the nation of Israel in 70AD. With Jesus also returning for his bride, in the first century, the very first christians, or first fruits.

This is simply what makes sense to me personally.
 

Gottservant

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Romans 1:
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged natural relations for that which is contrary to nature,27 and likewise the men, too, abandoned natural relations with women and burned in their desire toward one another, males with males committing shameful acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a depraved mind, to do those things that are not proper, 29 people having been filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, and evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice; they are gossips,

A person with no desire to exchange their sin for less corruption, cannot be saved.

The point is that when we see our sin paid for, on the cross, we no longer desire to continue in our old sin.

If God were to give people salvation, without corruption, the power of the Holy Spirit would destroy us (the act of destroying our corruption would destroy us along with it).
 

Davy

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Okay Davy.

When it comes to the wrath of God I believe it was poured out in Israel in 70Ad. Satan and his angels have been taken care of, sin, death, hell/hades/Sheol.
But don't forget what Apostle Paul taught about his brethren of the unbelieving Jews in Romans 11, how in final that God has not forgotten them, and there will come a day (Christ's coming) when their 'blindness' will be removed. God Himself is Who put that 'spirit of stupor' upon the Jews to be against The Gospel so it would go to the Gentiles, according to Paul. Thus the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple was a temporary judgment, not a final one. And God is still keeping His promise of 1 Kings 11 to the tribe of Judah that He promised He would always leave one tribe at Jerusalem.

Lot to consider in the above, but it comes about through thorough Bible study in all of God's Word, not just the New Testament writings.

I believe God in his good pleasure and will to create with the ability in mind for the creation to think is a wonderful thing, it goes to simply show how us human beings just like the heavenly angels having free choice how good God is.
I don't like being a myth buster, however, many, but not all, of the doctrines taught in today's Churches do not come from God's Word. There is nothing written in Genesis that said Eve ate an apple. It was only assumed it was an apple, and then became a popular tradition.

My point? In Romans 8:18-25, Apostle Paul showed that for this present world earth age, God actually placed it into bondage to corruption.

In other words, this present 2nd world earth age we are in that God made after He ended Satan's rebellion of old, God placed today's in an imperfect state. Even though God's creation today has much beauty and wonder, by what Paul showed reveals today's creation cannot be compared to the future world to come. Isaiah 11 is a prime example about animals in that future world.

Though many people don’t see Jesus having come back in 70Ad and wrapping that old age up. My view is Jesus came back and those waiting did see him.

Maybe I am in error but don’t believe so, maybe I been deceived too, and because of me being deceived I probably deceive others in their mind due to strange faith based reasons.
Jesus after His resurrection, appeared to His disciples for 40 days, and then ascended to The Father per Acts 1. And He is still in Heaven today on the right hand of The Father, expecting, until the time of His future return like how He ascended per Acts 1. That is what we 'know' per God's Word. Anything else is just men's doctrine.

This is why it is important to stay in 'study' of God's Word like Apostle Paul admonished Timothy, becoming a 'workman' in it so as to be approved of God and not found in shame (because of being deceived when Jesus returns).
 

Davy

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The NEW Covenant supersedes the old covenant, and it has passed away being obsolete. It seems you don't agree with the scriptures then. you cannot just disregard what they teach as they are for us today. Jesus taught us, this is the New Covenant in my blood.

Luke 22:20
Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

People who prefer their opinion over what scripture says are not in a good place.
Here is what scripture says about the old versus the new covenant, and also how it works differently, in fact it much superior in every way being a great salvation by grace and mercy alone and not by works.

AND you do not interpret NC scriptures from the OC scriptures. Actually, the other way around as the mystery of God is more fully revealed in the NT scriptures. And they tie in together very well. I am so glad I am not an old covenant person.

Hebrews 8
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant​

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

v10, v11 and 12 are very good descriptions of how the NC works. No one today is taught to know the LORD. God does this for us, we know Him as we are born again, according to his purpose and will, as we are granted to know Christ and God.

Luke 10:22
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
Preaching to the choir.
 

bbyrd009

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Esau dwells on blood, and sin, whereas it seems that Yah is more about forgiveness, and grace. weird.
It’s significant in that Jesus himself is drawing the parallel. He’s saying the Nehushtan was an “instrument” used by God for His purposes. Next thing you know, people were worshipping the vessel as if it had some special powers of its own, rather than the One who empowered it (God, not Moses or anyone else). If you can accept it- he’s saying ‘I’m just like that snake on a pole.’

People tend to worship the created things that they can see and touch instead of the invisible One.
might even lead one to a better understanding of “Why have You forsaken Me” i think, but i admit that that is a rather hard thing to get to after being raised in a Jesus cult
 
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bbyrd009

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Okay Davy.

When it comes to the wrath of God I believe it was poured out in Israel in 70Ad. Satan and his angels have been taken care of, sin, death, hell/hades/Sheol.

I believe God in his good pleasure and will to create with the ability in mind for the creation to think is a wonderful thing, it goes to simply show how us human beings just like the heavenly angels having free choice how good God is.

Though many people don’t see Jesus having come back in 70Ad and wrapping that old age up. My view is Jesus came back and those waiting did see him.

Maybe I am in error but don’t believe so, maybe I been deceived too, and because of me being deceived I probably deceive others in their mind due to strange faith based reasons.
“Jesus, returning” cannot, after all, be Quoted

The Wrath had to come down on someone for their disobedience
did it? Yah was walking in Paradise and looking for Adam after he had sinned, wasnt He?
 

bbyrd009

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A person with no desire to exchange their sin for less corruption, cannot be saved.

The point is that when we see our sin paid for, on the cross, we no longer desire to continue in our old sin.
Esau was convinced that he needed red stew, or he would die, yes
but i wonder if that is not more an expression of ppls desire for remediation/freedom from past sins, which seem to weigh on some more than others
 

MatthewG

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“Jesus, returning” cannot, after all, be Quoted

Through the gospels and the letters yes. Just type out “Jesus return scripture”, “watching and waiting second coming scripture”, you will find something.

I’m not lying about it.
did it? Yah was walking in Paradise and looking for Adam after he had sinned, wasnt He?
What?
 

MatthewG

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An actual quote from history, you can read fulfillment of the end of those who would be in the last day of their age, Acts 2.

But on actually “we seen Jesus return”, no there is no documentation on it. It’s something I believe in faith has happened before the destruction of Jerusalem came about which Jesus promised 40 years prior.

The point is why would Jesus promise to come back in that day but never show up????
 

MatthewG

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An actual quote from history, you can read fulfillment of the end of those who would be in the last day of their age, Acts 2.

But on actually “we seen Jesus return”, no there is no documentation on it. It’s something I believe in faith has happened before the destruction of Jerusalem came about which Jesus promised 40 years prior.

The point is why would Jesus promise to come back in that day but never show up????
The Bible is a joke and Jesus and the apostles should not be trusted? Yet many people expect him to return now today… why?

I don’t know why, I’m content to be in Christ and all will see him as the Lord God Almighty after death.
 

Scott Downey

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The Bible is a joke and Jesus and the apostles should not be trusted? Yet many people expect him to return now today… why?

I don’t know why, I’m content to be in Christ and all will see him as the Lord God Almighty after death.
Well one proof Jesus has not yet returned is the devil is still free to roam about causing evil troubles.
The world is still very evil and the 20th century was the bloodiest century in the history of the world.
Satan is not yet bound in the abyss.

1 Peter 5
8 Be [c]sober, be [d]vigilant; [e]because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But [f]may the God of all grace, who called [g]us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, [h]perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. 11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 2
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

People are still having the devil working in them today, if Christ had returned, then the devil would be gone, as when Christ returns HE destroys the devil ability to work.

2 Thess 2
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 
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bbyrd009

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Just type out “Jesus return scripture”, “watching and waiting second coming scripture”, you will find something.
ok well when you find “Jesus hupo strepho” one single time just let me know k
English irdc so much
Yah was available even after Adam and Eve sinned iow
 
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