Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?

[Rockerduck]

I don't connect Holy Spirit baptism as prerequisite to being in the Elect. It's a separate issue. IMO
I think there are many in the Elect who don't have the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
I agree that one has to be part of the Elect to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
(though it could happen in reverse order)


Universalism is the plan for those whom God did not choose to be part of the original Elect.
In Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn...

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father
after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

[

First, I did not mention baptism of anything because that confuses people. I interpret 1 Corinthians 15:22-24
"each in turn" is Christ, then those who belong to Him. Just that order, nobody else, but first Christ, 2nd, His chosen.

 

[St. SteVen]

First, I did not mention baptism of anything because that confuses people. I interpret 1 Corinthians 15:22-24
"each in turn" is Christ, then those who belong to Him. Just that order, nobody else, but first Christ, 2nd, His chosen.

I agree that it presents a weak case but still the beginning phrase should inform the whole.

In Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn...

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father
after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
[

 

[St. SteVen]

First, I did not mention baptism of anything because that confuses people.

I think we need to connect Pentecost to the baptism with the Holy Spirit, because Jesus did.
It is a subsequent experience to the indwelling.

Acts 1:4-5 NIV
On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command:
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.
5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”

[

 

[St. SteVen]

First, I did not mention baptism of anything because that confuses people.

I agree that it can be confusing.
How do you explain it?

Are you saying that the churches are full of believers that do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit?

I think there are many who have the indwelling Holy Spirit, but were lied to concerning the manifestations of the Spirit.
The church told them that the manifestations of the Spirit are not for today. And that those who claim to manifest are lying.
In fact they claim those people have a demon controlling them.

Jesus told us that the unforgivable sin was to attribute the work of God to the devil.

[

 

[Rockerduck]

I explain it this way. You received the Holy Spirit now be baptized in water. Its Confusing when you say, You received the baptism of the Holy Spirit now be baptized in water. Some take that as a condition of salvation. So, it's best to say, if Jesus saved you, follow through with water baptism. As far as Christians, only God knows, but you shall know them by their fruit. I know a Christian man, active in church. His young son died, then he became an atheist. He was never a Christian. So, yes, the Churches have many like that in the congregations.

 

[St. SteVen]

I explain it this way. You received the Holy Spirit now be baptized in water. Its Confusing when you say, You received the baptism of the Holy Spirit now be baptized in water. Some take that as a condition of salvation. So, it's best to say, if Jesus saved you, follow through with water baptism. As far as Christians, only God knows, but you shall know them by their fruit. I know a Christian man, active in church. His young son died, then he became an atheist. He was never a Christian. So, yes, the Churches have many like that in the congregations.

I find it interesting that our life experience informs our theology and doctrines.
You and I are different in both respects.

[

 

[Behold]

What happens if your "a whole Bible view" includes my scriptures rather than dismisses them? - Then what?

Implying that a demonic gospel "universalism" is a "whole bible view"... is not related to Truth or correct NT Theology.

See, Jesus on The Cross, is Salvation, and God offers this Redemption Universally........but God only eternally applies it to one believer at a time.

So, a person is SAVED... only when they BELIEVE, and not before., as Faith in Christ, = while you are alive, is required by God before He will apply to you, what Jesus has "finished" on The Cross for us all.

Salvation...is "Justificaton by FAITH"....in Christ.......and you have to do that.....You have to BELIEVE....before you die.

 

[St. SteVen]

Here's something I find interesting.

My views on Ultimate Redemption (Universalism) are typically
dismissed for not aligning with "a whole Bible view".
Seems that saw should cut both ways.

What happens if your "a whole Bible view" includes my scriptures rather than dismisses them? - Then what?

[

 

[Aunty Jane]

Good question.
It means that God's intention is to redeem all of humankind, not just a select few in the here and now.

Error number one. Redemption is not for a select few in the here and now. The redeemed go all the way back to Abel.

The offer is open to everyone, but it is not without conditions. Just as life itself was not without conditions at the start in Eden. If the humans wanted to keep living, they had to obey only one simple command ....obedience is at the core of the whole issue....so why would it not also apply down to our day? God does not change.

The gift is there for all who accept the terms. The wicked have nowhere to hide their disobedience, which will be clearly seen in their own attitudes and actions. God is under no obligation to save those who want to disobey him. We have seen where disobedience has taken us.

There will be an age of restoration when all nations and leaders (both political and religious) and all individuals
will be evaluated/corrected/restored and redeemed. Healing will come to the nations.
We seem a glimpse of that in this scripture. Notice everywhere this takes place.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Yes, you have sort of answered your own question..... Christians are found in all nations today, so “at the name of Jesus” (the only one who could pay the price of redemption), every knee will bow in respect to his selfless and willing sacrifice. But they have to be recognized by God as disciples of his son and they will obey his commands willingly, not grudgingly....not questioning their validity as satan did to the woman.

Who “in heaven” will bow to that name if not those chosen to rule with him in his Kingdom? (Rev 20:6)
They are chosen from among mankind as “firstfruits”....(Rev 14:1-5) these will rule in the kingdom with Jesus.....but another group would follow....their subjects on earth, which will include all the dead (good and bad) whom Christ resurrects once he has established his Kingdom over the earth, (John 5:28-29) most of whom died in ignorance.

Those who are “under the earth” will return to life in the resurrection and enjoy the restoration of God’s first purpose for this earth and the human race he placed here.

All that Jesus did was “to the glory of God the Father”...the God that he himself worshipped (Rev 3:14) and whose interest he served, and in whose name he came preaching about salvation to those who accept his truth.
“The god of this world” has the majority under his control right now, (2 Cor 4:3-4) so when the judgment comes on this world, in this “time of the end”.......all who are alive will be separated into one camp or the other.....”sheep or goats”....”wheat or weeds”...by our own choices we will place ourselves in one of those camps. There is no neutral space and it’s decision time. There are no second chances here, because we have had ample time to make our choices. “Like the days of Noah”.....this is a judgment period. (Matt 24:37-39)

 

[Jack]

Imagine that, a Kingom Hall puppet accusing someone of errors!!!

 

[MatthewG]

Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?​

I can’t stand the idea that people are forced into faith. What I love—what gives me peace—is knowing that Yahavah gives each person the freedom to choose whether they’ll walk with Him or not. And in the end, every heart will be revealed. I know I can’t fool God. I’m nowhere near perfect. But I’m deeply thankful for the Lord Yeshua, who did what no one else could ever do—for the Father, and for all of us.

 

[Jack]

Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?​

Because it's SATANIC!

Because I just simply hate the idea. And I love that Yahavah allows people the right to choose whether or not they are gonna make a life with God or not and they will be found out. I can't even fool God, and by far long ways from perfect. Thankful for the Lord Yeshua, who did everything no one else could ever had done for his Father and for all mankind.

Yahavah? lol PREACH Jesus Matt! Do you want to burn in Hell?

Ain't in the Bible Matt. You already had years of opportunity to produce proof. You ain't got any proof of Yahavah in the Bible.

 

[quietthinker]

Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?​

Ahhh, 'Universal'.....such a poorly qualified term!
Does it include other creations not of this Earth? and does the generally understood 'theological' context muddy the waters so that those religiously inclined have plenty of presumptions to pit their 'rightness' against the other....infinitum?

The message of Salvation is for our lost and decaying system, particularly its human inhabitants.
The choices folk make regarding this message determines the trajectory of their reality.
Although death has been defeated by the resurrection of Jesus on the world's behalf, the love of death and everything in its train is worshipped and maintained by many of its citizens.

It is those who with relief proclaim 'lo, this is our God, we have waited for him.....' (Isaiah 25:9) at Jesus' return, who will experience the transformation of body and mind spoken of in 1 Corinthians 15:52......whereas those whose affections are welded to the systems of this world; ie systems of favouritism, of greed, of dissent and ultimately of destruction, will reap that which they have embraced.

 

[St. SteVen]

Why doesn't your "whole Bible view" include Universalism?​

Ahhh, 'Universal'.....such a poorly qualified term!

The term is actually Universalism.
Or as I defined in the OP, Ultimate Redemption (Universalism).

To be clear, it is a view of the final judgement in which the goal is accountability, restoration and redemption.

Of what ultimate good is it to either destroy, or torment forever, those in need of accountability, restoration and redemption?

Is the ultimate triumph of grace to annihilate the vast majority of humankind, or to torture them for all eternity?

Is the good news of the gospel that a hand-full will be selected (the Elect) to be united with God forever.
While their friends and family burn?

[

 

[quietthinker]

The term is actually Universalism.
Or as I defined in the OP, Ultimate Redemption (Universalism).

To be clear, it is a view of the final judgement in which the goal is accountability, restoration and redemption.

Of what ultimate good is it to either destroy, or torment forever, those in need of accountability, restoration and redemption?

Is the ultimate triumph of grace to annihilate the vast majority of humankind, or to torture them for all eternity?

Is the good news of the gospel that a hand-full will be selected (the Elect) to be united with God forever.
While their friends and family burn?

[

Let's not forget to factor in the fact that many will refuse the life secured for them by Jesus, deliberately. They will refuse it not because it's not accessible or freely given but because of their own stubborn incalcitrance. God's unspeakable generosity is an affront to them. They insist God must play by their tight fisted rules.

 

[St. SteVen]

Let's not forget to factor in the fact that many will refuse the life secured for them by Jesus, deliberately. They will refuse it not because it's not accessible or freely given but because of their own stubborn incalcitrance. God's unspeakable generosity is an affront to them. They insist God must play by their tight fisted rules.

Where did this idea that "many will refuse the life secured for them by Jesus" come from?
An encounter with the living God changes everything. No room for unbelief.
Saul was on the road to Damascus when Jesus confronted him. What happened?

As I have said often...
Anyone who claims to hate Jesus hasn't met Him yet.

[

 

[David Lamb]

Where did this idea that "many will refuse the life secured for them by Jesus" come from?
An encounter with the living God changes everything. No room for unbelief.
Saul was on the road to Damascus when Jesus confronted him. What happened?

As I have said often...
Anyone who claims to hate Jesus hasn't met Him yet.

[

But we read of plenty of people who met Jesus when He was here on earth, and still hated Him. The chief priests, many of the scribes and Pharisees, for example.

 

[quietthinker]

Where did this idea that "many will refuse the life secured for them by Jesus" come from?
An encounter with the living God changes everything. No room for unbelief.
Saul was on the road to Damascus when Jesus confronted him. What happened?

As I have said often...
Anyone who claims to hate Jesus hasn't met Him yet.

[

There are plenty who consistently refuse the prompting of the Spirit though the Spirit tries repeatedly to break through throughout their lifetime....and then there are those like Judas who abandon their hope and betray the Lord who saved them. The scripture collectively calls them 'The World'
Revelation 6:15-17 speak of this crowd. They would rather die than face the lamb.

'Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

[quietthinker]

As I have said often...
Anyone who claims to hate Jesus hasn't met Him yet.

hmmm, the religious folk who arranged to have him murdered. They knew who he was.
The events with the Maggi and the Shepherds from his birth was widely reported....including the reasons for Herod's slaughter of the innocents. Jesus in the Temple at age 12 debating with the leaders. The voice at Jesus' baptism and all the miracles he did including the raising of the dead. They watched these remarkable events. Jesus was not an unknown to them.
Jesus drew thousands all over the country. His reality did not unfold in a corner....and then of course there was the Resurrection which they desperately sought to conceal.
All this did not go unnoticed by those in authority.
Oh yes, they knew Jesus alright and as the scripture says, 'they hated him without a cause' John 15:25

 

[quietthinker]

...and to add personal experience, I know folk from my younger years that were fervent and on fire for the Gospel. I shared house with them for years. Today, I report with sadness, most have abandoned their hope. The concerns of life and status; the pursuit of riches and pleasures of this world have seduced them. Some shun me because of my testimony of Jesus while others are dismissive of the subject.
They have known the Man just like Judas. They had received the Spirit just like Judas who was given the gift of healing the sick and raising the dead.....and yet with all this knowledge and evidence, they abandoned their high calling.

It is in the light of this that Jesus reminds us directly and through parables and stories repeatedly, not to be deceived.