Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

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Bible Highlighter

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YOu say perhaps- but the bible says NOT!!!

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It is not war poetry- but a warning to avoid eternal torment.

Perfect Jstice requires both eternal reward and eternal; punishment- the non existent cannot suffer anything!
I believe it is possible they will suffer for a time (In proportion to the type of sins they did). But then… after justice is served, they will be erased from existence. After all, that is fair justice. It’s not fair justice to punish beyond what the crime calls for. Wicked men don’t have time machines to commit acts of sin against God for all eternity to warrant eternal punishment. Finite amount of crimes equals a finite punishment and not an eternal one (if it is to be a fair judgment). But most who are for Eternal Torment shut off their brains when reading the text. Words like: “forever” do not always mean forever in the Bible.

In other words, the word "forever" can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?
• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.​
• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).​
• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).​
• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).​
• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).​
• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).​
• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):​
• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).​
• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).​
• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.​
• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).​
• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).​
• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).​
• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).​
• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).​
• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).​
• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6) until -- his death.​
• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used for a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal,” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”​

So the word "forever" as used in the Bible, is true. It does mean "forever," but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place). In Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesimus would return to him (his master) forever.

Obviously, Onesimus is not an immortal man still living on Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives on Earth. While I believe the King James Bible is the divinely inspired Word of God that is perfect, I do realize that the KJB was written in 1600’s English, and its wording can be difficult (which influenced even Modern Translations). Folks who do not rightly divide carefully can easily conclude the wrong thing with a surface reading of the Scriptures.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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yeah, everyone else spiritualizing everything, Remez, Pardes, Sod etc.
J.​
Comparison Chart: Which View Allegorizes Scripture More?

Many people have their own views on the “Lake of Fire”. Many believe it is an eternal punishment. Many believe you will immediately perish. Others believe it is a temporary punishment. Which answer is the right one? Well, I have done an in-depth side by side scriptural analysis on both the "Traditional View" (Eternal Torment) and the "Conditional View" (Annihilation in the Lake of Fire).

Verses That Make Sense
(From Each Perspective Viewpoint):

full
 

Bible Highlighter

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yeah, everyone else spiritualizing everything, Remez, Pardes, Sod etc.
J.
Notice how the Conditional view appears to make the most sense (according to the chart)?

This is because...

Traditional Viewpoints requires the most spiritualization (or metaphorical interpretation) of scripture, with words such as:

  1. perish
  2. death
  3. die
  4. destruction
  5. consumed by fire
  6. second death
  7. carcases

In other words: the above words (within scripture) have to be used metaphorically in order for the verses to fit the traditional viewpoint.

Conditional Viewpoints has the least amount of spiritualization of figurative expressions within scripture, such as:

  1. their worm will not die
  2. the smoke of their torment will go up forever (Isaiah 34:10 Which also describes a place)
  3. unquenchable fire

In other words: the above words (within scripture) have to be used metaphorically in order for the verses to fit the conditional viewpoint.

Also, In Isaiah 66:22-24 the usage of the phrases "the worm will not die" and the "the unquenchable fire" is said to involve the carcases of men being viewed by the saints (or those who have received eternal life). The fact that the saints are viewing the ongoing empty (soulless) remains (or carcases) of dead bodies could very well be a testament to the saints and the eternal life they continue to have.

While ECT does appear to teach Eternal Torment, this in my view is only a surface reading or a reading somebody would receive at first glance.

Hell and the Nature of God:

Notice how the Conditional view appears to make the most sense (according to the chart)?

This is because...

Traditional Viewpoints requires the most spiritualization (or metaphorical interpretation) of scripture, with words such as:

  1. perish
  2. death
  3. die
  4. destruction
  5. consumed by fire
  6. second death
  7. carcases

In other words: the above words (within scripture) have to be used metaphorically in order for the verses to fit the traditional viewpoint.

Conditional Viewpoints has the least amount of spiritualization of figurative expressions within scripture, such as:

  1. their worm will not die
  2. the smoke of their torment will go up forever (Isaiah 34:10 Which also describes a place)
  3. unquenchable fire
 
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Bible Highlighter

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You are misleading yourself.

Haides is the abode of the wicked also called "hell" in the KJV.

It is a holding place in the heavenly dimension for the wicked dead. In Luke 16, Jesus gave the example of the rich man being taken to hell on one side of Paradise, and there the rich man suffered burning torments. In the Greek the idea of his torment is a word that means a 'touchstone'. A touchstone is stone that measures the content of gold in ore. Spiritually, it means the rich man didn't 'measure up', and thus dwelt in torments of shame. Thus Hades is a very real place in the heavenly dimension. Isaiah 42 and Revelation 20 points to that being where Satan's pit prison house is.

The future "lake of fire" is different than Hades. The "lake of fire" is where the beast and false prophet are cast into and destroyed. And then after God's GWT Judgment it is where Satan, the wicked, Hades, and death, are all cast into and destroyed. The Psalms says into smoke they shall consume away.

So when reading the word "hell", it's important to look in the Greek to see which Greek word is being used, to know whether Hades or the "lake of fire" is being referred to.
Yes, I believe hell is a real and literal place.
I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality.
This is the view that hell is a real place of torment but the Lake of Fire is a place of eventual annihilation for the wicked.

Anyways, hell described by people today is generally embellished beyond how the Bible describes it.

In Luke 16:19-31, what folks fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any Earth-like flames. How so? Well, if the Rich-man was engulfed entirely by Earth-like flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would have been screaming too loudly in pain to even hear Abraham (if such were the case). If he was able to hold down his pain of screaming (for a moment), he would be shouting to Abraham for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out. But does the text say the rich man was screaming? Surely not. Yet, this is how people today depict the wicked in hell. In fact, if a person was being engulfed by flames today in the real world, how likely are they to carry on a normal conversation with you? They wouldn't because they would be screaming too loudly from the pain.

So we are faced with one of two possibilities here:

Possibility #1. In Luke 16:24, when the Rich-man said, "...I am tormented in this flame," the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was either nearby him or in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman," - Genesis 2:23). Adam was not referring to his own flesh, with the word "this", but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, it was the heat of the flame in front of the rich-man that made him uncomfortable or tormented.

Possibility #2.
The rich-man was in actual flames but it was not an Earthly flame to cause him any kind of extreme pain whereby he could carry on a normal conversation instead of screaming. The flame would have to be very mild in discomfort or it did not cause the same level of pain as a real flame would (as we know it).​

Now, do not misunderstand me, dear believer. I am not trying to minimize the true horrible nature of hell as we read about it in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Hell is bad. I believe hell is an extremely horrible place. We should warn others not to go there, and point them to the saving grace, and love of our Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Surely the rich-man was not putting on an actor’s performance when he desired to warn his brothers about such a place. Hell is bad. Really bad. Nobody should want to go there. It is a place of torments. But we should not also paint a picture of hell that the Bible does not paint or teach, either. Some make hell out to be something that it is not specifically stated (Portraying it as an extreme torture chamber of men and women screaming uncontrollably). We simply do not know that this is so. If the Lord wanted to let us know that hell is a place of extreme torture and pain, and screaming, He would have given us this description in Scripture as such, but He didn’t. I believe it is well, when we do not go beyond what is written (Especially when that addition leans towards the negative side). Sure, we may guess as to what may be or not, but to officially say that hell is like this or that when the Bible has not said so, is to add to Scripture something that is not there. So please understand that even my explanations on what is happening to the rich man is not a hardcore facts in Scripture but mere possibilities to give comfort about what we know involving our Lord’s goodness and fair justice.
 

Davy

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Yes, I believe hell is a real and literal place.
I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality.
This is the view that hell is a real place of torment but the Lake of Fire is a place of eventual annihilation for the wicked.

Anyways, hell described by people today is generally embellished beyond how the Bible describes it.

In Luke 16:19-31, what folks fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any Earth-like flames. How so? Well, if the Rich-man was engulfed entirely by Earth-like flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would have been screaming too loudly in pain to even hear Abraham (if such were the case). If he was able to hold down his pain of screaming (for a moment), he would be shouting to Abraham for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out. But does the text say the rich man was screaming? Surely not. Yet, this is how people today depict the wicked in hell. In fact, if a person was being engulfed by flames today in the real world, how likely are they to carry on a normal conversation with you? They wouldn't because they would be screaming too loudly from the pain.

So we are faced with one of two possibilities here:

Possibility #1. In Luke 16:24, when the Rich-man said, "...I am tormented in this flame," the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was either nearby him or in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman," - Genesis 2:23). Adam was not referring to his own flesh, with the word "this", but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, it was the heat of the flame in front of the rich-man that made him uncomfortable or tormented.​
Possibility #2. The rich-man was in actual flames but it was not an Earthly flame to cause him any kind of extreme pain whereby he could carry on a normal conversation instead of screaming. The flame would have to be very mild in discomfort or it did not cause the same level of pain as a real flame would (as we know it).​

Now, do not misunderstand me, dear believer. I am not trying to minimize the true horrible nature of hell as we read about it in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Hell is bad. I believe hell is an extremely horrible place. We should warn others not to go there, and point them to the saving grace, and love of our Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Surely the rich-man was not putting on an actor’s performance when he desired to warn his brothers about such a place. Hell is bad. Really bad. Nobody should want to go there. It is a place of torments. But we should not also paint a picture of hell that the Bible does not paint or teach, either. Some make hell out to be something that it is not specifically stated (Portraying it as an extreme torture chamber of men and women screaming uncontrollably). We simply do not know that this is so. If the Lord wanted to let us know that hell is a place of extreme torture and pain, and screaming, He would have given us this description in Scripture as such, but He didn’t. I believe it is well, when we do not go beyond what is written (Especially when that addition leans towards the negative side). Sure, we may guess as to what may be or not, but to officially say that hell is like this or that when the Bible has not said so, is to add to Scripture something that is not there. So please understand that even my explanations on what is happening to the rich man is not a hardcore facts in Scripture but mere possibilities to give comfort about what we know involving our Lord’s goodness and fair justice.
Look up the Greek word for "torments" in Luke 16:23, and you might understand closer to just what kind of torment the rich man was in.
 

Robert Gwin

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Paul's letter was written specifically to the church congregation in Corinth, but it was also written to all Christians, to everyone who has Jesus as their Lord - 1 Corinthians 1:2 (WEB):

(2) to the assembly of God which is at Corinth; those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours:​

The verses in chapter 15 are again concerning all Christians - all that have already died and all those still alive when Jesus returns for the Church:

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​
(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

There is no limitation to 144,000 in this passage. That only occurs in Revelation chapters 7 and 14. The Book of Revelation is all about future events - the first verse says:

(1) This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, ...​

After the letters to the seven churches, which are also prophetic of the church thoughout the Gospel Age, in chapter 4 it continues with events after the Gospel Age (verse 1 says "After these things"). It describes the throne room in heaven, where the resurrected Church is represented by the 24 elders - they are sitting on thrones "dressed in white garments, with crowns of gold on their heads" (Rev. 4:4), and "They sang a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation, and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.” (Rev 5:9-10). The resurected Church then witness Jesus unsealing the scroll, and the resulting tribulation coming upon those still living on the Earth (chapter 6).

It is then in chapter 7 that it first tells of the 144,000. Again verse one starts with "After this", after the 7 seals have been opened, witnesssed by the resurrected Church in heaven, that 144,000 Israelites living on the Earth are sealed.

(3) saying, Do not hurt the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.​

They are not sons of God (the Church), they are servants of God, and they are all Jewish:

(4) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:​

The 144,000 are only mentioned once more, in chapter 14. They are still on the Earth, in Jerusalem, on Mount Zion, and they are all men:

(1) I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a number, one hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.​
(2) I heard a sound from heaven, like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of a great thunder. The sound which I heard was like that of harpists playing on their harps.​
(3) They sing a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the one hundred forty-four thousand, those who had been redeemed out of the earth.​
(4) These are those who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.​

They are obedient to Jesus, and are his representatives on the Earth. They have not been changed to be immortal spirit beings like the Church has.
I have explained it well sir, so no need to further define. All Christians are under the same laws which is true, but as you posted again in the passage that was written to those saints that are sanctified in Christ Jesus. You were simply unaware of who they are sir. They have been anointed for a reason, which makes perfect sense.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I believe it is possible they will suffer for a time (In proportion to the type of sins they did). But then… after justice is served, they will be erased from existence. After all, that is fair justice. It’s not fair justice to punish beyond what the crime calls for. Wicked men don’t have time machines to commit acts of sin against God for all eternity to warrant eternal punishment. Finite amount of crimes equals a finite punishment and not an eternal one (if it is to be a fair judgment). But most who are for Eternal Torment shut of their brains when reading the text. Words like: “forever” do not always mean forever in the Bible.

In other words, the word "forever" can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?
Well I can only tell you what the Bible says and how the words were used by people, I cannot answer to your speculations and opinions and beliefs. It sounds more like you want to take your opinions and make them the Word of God- they are not!
 

keithr

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I have explained it well sir, so no need to further define. All Christians are under the same laws which is true, but as you posted again in the passage that was written to those saints that are sanctified in Christ Jesus. You were simply unaware of who they are sir. They have been anointed for a reason, which makes perfect sense.
I don't call making the claim that Paul was writing to the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation (not written until decades after Paul's letter), as explaining it well! Paul was writing to all Christians. There is just one faith, remember? (Ephesians 4:4-6). There is no hint that Paul was writing to a subset of Christians, or that there are a group of Christians who are treated preferentially above, or differently to other Christians.

Why do you mention "They have been anointed for a reason"? There is no mention in the Scriptures we've covered of anyone being anointed. The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation are 'sealed' - Revelation 7:3 (ISV):

(3) "Don't harm the land, the sea, or the trees until we have marked the servants of our God with a seal on their foreheads."​
 
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Robert Gwin

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I don't call making the claim that Paul was writing to the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation (not written until decades after Paul's letter), as explaining it well! Paul was writing to all Christians. There is just one faith, remember? (Ephesians 4:4-6). There is no hint that Paul was writing to a subset of Christians, or that there are a group of Christians who are treated preferentially above, or differently to other Christians.

Why do you mention "They have been anointed for a reason"? There is no mention in the Scriptures we've covered of anyone being anointed. The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation are 'sealed' - Revelation 7:3 (ISV):

(3) "Don't harm the land, the sea, or the trees until we have marked the servants of our God with a seal on their foreheads."​
Yes sir, there is one faith, one shepherd, two groups of sheep Jn 10:16
 

keithr

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Yes sir, there is one faith, one shepherd, two groups of sheep Jn 10:16
John 10:16 (WEB):
(16) I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd.​

You're still not explaining it! The two folds (not flocks) of sheep mentioned in John 10:16 are commonly interpreted to be referring to the Gentiles as opposed to the Jewish believers. However, it is more likely referring to those that come to faith during the Millennial Age, under different conditions and a different call. So there will be one fold of resurrected Christians (spirit beings) and eventually another fold of resurrected human beings - two folds but one flock, with one shepherd and one faith.

Ephesians 3:14-15 (KJV):
(14) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,​
(15) Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,​

The Good Shepherd gave his life a ransom for all his sheep, not merely for the little flock of this age. Christ's larger flock will be gathered after the kingdom is set up.

Luke 12:32 (WEB):
(32) Don’t be afraid, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.​

Matthew 25:32-34 (WEB):
(32) Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.​
(33) He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.​
(34) Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;​
 

Bible Highlighter

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Look up the Greek word for "torments" in Luke 16:23, and you might understand closer to just what kind of torment the rich man was in.
Words should not be read out of what we see described in the story. I look also at the context. The rich man was not screaming uncontrollably whereby he could not speak with Abraham. It is only Hollywood, and or churches that paint a picture of people uncontrollably screaming in hell. 2 Corinthians 4:13 says, “We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;”. In other words, show me in the Bible it is more.
 
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ElieG12

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Gehenna is no place for disembodied "souls."

Matt. 5:29, 30 __ "better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to be pitched into Gehenna"
... 10:28 __ "fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna"
... 18:9 __ "better for you to enter one-eyed into life than to be thrown with two eyes into the fiery Ge·henʹna"

(See also Mark 9:43, 45, 47).

Smoke is a sign that combustible material is burning. If bodies are thrown into Gehenna (as you just read in Scriptures), and there is continuous smoke, it means that those people who were thrown there (their corpses) are consuming and decomposing into particles, and from there smoke is coming out.

There can be no life with burning corpses, just as there was no life in the corpses dumped in the dump called "Gehenna" outside Jerusalem. That dump was fed with sulfur and there were worms where the fire could not reach, because the worms consumed what escaped from the flames. Don't you notice the symbolism yet?
 

Davy

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I look also the context. He was not screaming uncontrollably whereby he could not speak with Abraham. It is only Hollywood, and or churches that paint a picture of people uncontrollably screaming in hell.
If you had looked up the meaning of that Greek word, you would have learned it means a 'touchstone'.

A touchstone is a certain type of rock that when you strike ore that has gold in it, the touchstone reveals the gold content in that ore. Thus a touchstone is a tool for 'measure'.

So a 'touchstone' applied to where the rich man says he is in 'torments' (touchstone), means he failed to 'measure up'. He had been weighed and judged and found wanting, so to speak. It is pointing that his main torment was 'shame'. Does this idea of terrible shame align with how those who rejected Jesus feel when He appears? Yes.

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man,
hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV

Zech 12:10-14
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:
and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV


That of course is when the 'blindness' God put upon the unbelieving Jews for this present world, will be removed, and they will see Jesus Christ and 'know' Who He is. That will be when those Jews will have their doubt removed so as to believe The Gospel.
 

ElieG12

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How do you think occurs the final judgement of evil people? For example, there is a day coming, before humans will be resurrected on earth, in which the planet will get a cleaning of human goverments and impious persons ... They will be destroyed in that final day, and some persons will survive that destruction ...

In the Scriptures that day is described as horrible to the ones who will be destroyed. It talks about fire, ice stones coming down on people, etc. It will be a destruction like Sodom, like in the days of Noah ... also with survivors, a new beginning for them.

Were there any extra aftermath for the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah after they were destroyed with fire and brimstone from heaven by God himself? No, there was no remainder. Those people were not kept somewhere else to be judge again for the same acts. God completely wiped them out of existence, leaving only one example of what He will do again soon, through his Son. They are already eliminated forever, and that means that they have already gone through the fire of Gehenna and were consumed by it.

Jude 7 (...) Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them also gave themselves over to gross sexual immorality and pursued unnatural fleshly desires; they are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.
 

Bible Highlighter

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If you had looked up the meaning of that Greek word, you would have learned it means a 'touchstone'.

A touchstone is a certain type of rock that when you strike ore that has gold in it, the touchstone reveals the gold content in that ore. Thus a touchstone is a tool for 'measure'.

So a 'touchstone' applied to where the rich man says he is in 'torments' (touchstone), means he failed to 'measure up'. He had been weighed and judged and found wanting, so to speak. It is pointing that his main torment was 'shame'. Does this idea of terrible shame align with how those who rejected Jesus feel when He appears? Yes.

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man,
hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV

Zech 12:10-14
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications:
and they shall look upon Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.
KJV


That of course is when the 'blindness' God put upon the unbelieving Jews for this present world, will be removed, and they will see Jesus Christ and 'know' Who He is. That will be when those Jews will have their doubt removed so as to believe The Gospel.
I take complicated explanations involving a definition for a word with a grain of salt (even if it comes from a Bible dictionary). I am more of a Bible kind of a guy. This whole touchstone explanation could be true or it could not be. Bible dictionaries should not tell me what the Bible says (without it agreeing with the Bible). But I do agree that there is weeping and gnashing of teeth in both the Lake of Fire and in the place known as outer darkness. If somebody is weeping because they missed out on God’s Kingdom and they knew they waisted their life on themselves and their sin, they no doubt could feel shame as a part of their crying or weeping. Others would experience anger at God (Hence, why they are gnashing their teeth).

As for Revelation 6:15-17: Sure, I could see the possibility that they may ashamed (naked) before the LORD Jesus. But I would see it more as fear. They are afraid and hence why they are hiding. They are fearing God’s wrath.

Back when I lived in the state I grew up in: There was this baby deer that was living in my back yard once for about two weeks. It's mother would come by and feed it and then leave. However, it would make noises to it's mother at night, which would sometimes make it hard for me to sleep. So the one day, I was presented with an opportunity to get rid of this baby deer safely. So I decided to put on my black rubber work gloves and go outside in order to grab him gently and throw him over the chain link fence back into the forest where it's mother was at.

So I walked really slow and got really close to him; And just when I was about to grab him, he quickly bolted to the front of the house. This scared me a little, because I did not want the little guy getting hit by any cars in the front of the house, seeing I live on a busy street. However, when I got to the front of the house, he did not go near the traffic of the road, which was good. So he started to move back towards the back yard again. However, this time he went into the neighbor's back yard. This was perfect because they had a gate to their back yard so I could close it behind me, ensuring my capture of the little guy.

So I pinned him behind some stacked up wood behind the neighbor's shed and I grabbed him. He was kicking and screaming as I held him in my hands; And then I threw him over the chain link fence back into the forest. He landed safely on the other side of the fence; And later, I eventually seen him reunite with his mother (Which put me at ease).

However, afterwards I kept thinking to myself of how scared this baby deer was when I was holding it in my hands. I mean, it had no idea what I was going to do it. It probably thought I was trying to either eat it or hurt it in some way. In fact, I could actually feel the fear dripping off of this poor little guy.

Anyways, later that evening, when I was watching a video on "YouTube" by a pastor as per my usual routine throughout the week (back then), he told me about the following passages ...

Isaiah 13:11a - "And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity ..."

Isaiah 13:13 - "Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger."

Isaiah 13:14 - "And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land."

So I said to myself. What is a "roe"?
So I looked it up on the internet and low and behold, a roe is a baby deer! Here I was just a few hours earlier chasing a baby deer and I could feel it's fear in the fact that I was chasing it. This was a passage that God wanted to show me. He wanted to show me that the world will one day run in fear as the chased roe when God (i.e. Jesus Christ) will return to end all evil and iniquity. It was powerful! Coincidence you might say?

There were more of these kinds of things that took place, but the point here is the verses below.

Isaiah 13:8
“And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.”

Isaiah 13:13-14
13 “Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.”

Obviously a baby deer is running in this instance in Scripture because it is afraid.

Side Note:

Outer darkness is a place where I believe unprofitable servants (believers in Jesus who did not make it into the Kingdom go - either due to false doctrine, and or because they did not do what the Lord desired of them - which is faith that works by love and or because they justified some kind of sin in this life). This is appears to possibly be a place that is not hell but is a place of darkness. It is possible they will be tormented there by evil spirits because we see that those who do not forgive will be subject to the tormentors (Which is suggestive in the parable of the unforgiving servant). Hell (a place where the rich man went) is a place for the unbelieving wicked go. It’s a punishment or place of torment that is worse than outer darkness. These places are only temporary. Both the inhabitants of the place of outer darkness and hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Whereby they will be eventually annihilated or destroyed - which is called the Second Death. Note: It’s called the Second Death because it is related to the first death in that our first physical body was annihilated or destroyed).
 
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Davy

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I take complicated explanations involving a definition for a word with a grain of salt (even if it comes from a Bible dictionary). I am more of a Bible kind of a guy. It could be true or it could not be. But I do agree that there is weeping and gnashing of teeth in both the Lake of Fire and in the place known as outer darkness. If somebody is weeping because they missed out on God’s Kingdom and they knew they waisted their life on themselves and their sin, they no doubt could feel shame as a part of their crying or weeping. Others would experience anger at God (Hence, why they are gnashing their teeth).

As for Revelation 6:15-17: Sure, I could see the possibility that they may ashamed (naked) before the LORD Jesus. But I would see it more as fear. They are afraid and hence why they are hiding. They are fearing God’s wrath.

Back when I lived in the state I grew up in: There was this baby deer that was living in my back yard once for about two weeks. It's mother would come by and feed it and then leave. However, it would make noises to it's mother at night, which would sometimes make it hard for me to sleep. So the one day, I was presented with an opportunity to get rid of this baby deer safely. So I decided to put on my black rubber work gloves and go outside in order to grab him gently and throw him over the chain link fence back into the forest where it's mother was at.

So I walked really slow and got really close to him; And just when I was about to grab him, he quickly bolted to the front of the house. This scared me a little, because I did not want the little guy getting hit by any cars in the front of the house, seeing I live on a busy street. However, when I got to the front of the house, he did not go near the traffic of the road, which was good. So he started to move back towards the back yard again. However, this time he went into the neighbor's back yard. This was perfect because they had a gate to their back yard so I could close it behind me, ensuring my capture of the little guy.

So I pinned him behind some stacked up wood behind the neighbor's shed and I grabbed him. He was kicking and screaming as I held him in my hands; And then I threw him over the chain link fence back into the forest. He landed safely on the other side of the fence; And later, I eventually seen him reunite with his mother (Which put me at ease).

However, afterwards I kept thinking to myself of how scared this baby deer was when I was holding it in my hands. I mean, it had no idea what I was going to do it. It probably thought I was trying to either eat it or hurt it in some way. In fact, I could actually feel the fear dripping off of this poor little guy.

Anyways, later that evening, when I was watching a video on "YouTube" by a pastor as per my usual routine throughout the week (back then), he told me about the following passages ...

Isaiah 13:11a - "And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity ..."

Isaiah 13:13 - "Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger."

Isaiah 13:14 - "And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land."

So I said to myself. What is a "roe"?
So I looked it up on the internet and low and behold, a roe is a baby deer! Here I was just a few hours earlier chasing a baby deer and I could feel it's fear in the fact that I was chasing it. This was a passage that God wanted to show me. He wanted to show me that the world will one day run in fear as the chased roe when God (i.e. Jesus Christ) will return to end all evil and iniquity. It was powerful! Coincidence you might say?

There were more of these kinds of things that took place, but the point here is the verses below.

Isaiah 13:8
“And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.”

Isaiah 13:13-14
13 “Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.”
Then I have no reason for sane conversation with you, since you act so pumped up as if you cannot be taught anything. Welcome to my IGNORE LIST.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Then I have no reason for sane conversation with you, since you act so pumped up as if you cannot be taught anything. Welcome to my IGNORE LIST.
Blessings be unto you in the name of Jesus Christ.
May the Lord’s love shine upon you greatly.
 
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Robert Gwin

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John 10:16 (WEB):
(16) I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd.​

You're still not explaining it! The two folds (not flocks) of sheep mentioned in John 10:16 are commonly interpreted to be referring to the Gentiles as opposed to the Jewish believers. However, it is more likely referring to those that come to faith during the Millennial Age, under different conditions and a different call. So there will be one fold of resurrected Christians (spirit beings) and eventually another fold of resurrected human beings - two folds but one flock, with one shepherd and one faith.

Ephesians 3:14-15 (KJV):
(14) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,​
(15) Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,​

The Good Shepherd gave his life a ransom for all his sheep, not merely for the little flock of this age. Christ's larger flock will be gathered after the kingdom is set up.

Luke 12:32 (WEB):
(32) Don’t be afraid, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.​

Matthew 25:32-34 (WEB):
(32) Before him all the nations will be gathered, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.​
(33) He will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.​
(34) Then the King will tell those on his right hand, ‘Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;​
Yes sir, most people feel they are gentiles, which is fine they have to be labelled something. They can also be seen as two groups in Rev 7. When Jesus was speaking about his flock, you believe Jews, which I agree with, however these Jews are from all nations and make up the Israel of God Gal 6:16. After itemizing those 144k by tribes in verses 4-8, the other sheep which are innumerable are spoken of in verse 9, these sheep survive the great tribulation v 14. Both those 144k, and these innumerable ones are sheep.
The sheep of the fold go to heaven, the sheep not of that fold inherit the earth. Ps 37:11, 29; Mat 5:5
 

1stCenturyLady

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Wow, more heretics. Great, just what this forum needs… :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Why did you call him a heretic. That is shameful. Don't you know that only those who eat from the Tree of Life will live or be in torment forever? Satan and his angels all have had access to the Tree of Life, but unbelieving humans don't. The lake of fire for humans is called "the second death." Not a life of torment.

Think and reason it out before opening your mouth to slander someone.
 

Bible Highlighter

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Then I have no reason for sane conversation with you, since you act so pumped up as if you cannot be taught anything. Welcome to my IGNORE LIST.
You said that I act so pumped up that I cannot be taught anything. This is just your personal opinion that is not based on the truth, my friend. How so? Well, I have been corrected by other believers when they show me something in the Bible. In fact, I have changed theologically on many things over the years, and sometimes other believers were helpful or instrumental in that change.

You can check which theological things I was mistaken about in my growing knowledge of God’s Word over the years here:


Granted, I know you put me on ignore so you probably will not see this, but I say this to help others here see that your claim is not true. We disagree on a defined word in a Bible dictionary (Which is the work of a scholar). If that leads you to ignore me, then so be it. But I feel that is a little extreme. Do you consider Bible dictionaries to be infallible like the Bible?

Anyways, may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you greatly.