Why I believe in the rapture.

[GRACE ambassador]

?there is a “different program”, for lack of a better word, for the Jews.?

Yes, some dispensationalists do Recognize God's TWO Different Programs:
Plenty of Scriptural Evidence:

God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery
"Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!

God's Simple Will!

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 The question is, When exactly will that grafting occur? not necessarily before the Rapture...

Well….this rather begs the question, doesn’t it? I’ve heard many Dispensationalists claim that the whole reason for a pre-trib Rapture and 7 year tribulation is BECAUSE of the separate program for the Jews.
Thus the differences in opinions when we arrive at this juncture….many of us simply do not see a difference in programs. Nor do we see the timing of this ‘grafting in’ as being mandated by the separating of a Rapture.
I suppose, in the end, all we can do is wait and see. Really, when it comes down to it, it will hardly matter…God will draw those who are his too him, regardless.

 

[David H.]

Well….this rather begs the question, doesn’t it? I’ve heard many Dispensationalists claim that the whole reason for a pre-trib Rapture and 7 year tribulation is BECAUSE of the separate program for the Jews.
Thus the differences in opinions when we arrive at this juncture….many of us simply do not see a difference in programs. Nor do we see the timing of this ‘grafting in’ as being mandated by the separating of a Rapture.
I suppose, in the end, all we can do is wait and see. Really, when it comes down to it, it will hardly matter…God will draw those who are his too him, regardless.

The Grafting IMO is when the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel are sealed.

 

[Naomi25]

Yes, some dispensationalists do Recognize God's TWO Different Programs:
Plenty of Scriptural Evidence:

God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery
"Distinctions" of Prophecy vs MYSTERY

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!

God's Simple Will!

I’m sure you mean well, but I don’t have the time to chase down all those links to get to your point, I’m sorry.

 

[Naomi25]

The Grafting IMO is when the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel are sealed.

Could be. Doesn’t specifically say, however, so I wouldn’t want to get dogmatic on it.
So…do you take the Rom 11 “all Israel will be saved”…the ‘all’ to be figurative (if it means only 144000)….or do you take the 144000 to be figurative, and it to mean “all Israel”?

 

[David H.]

Could be. Doesn’t specifically say, however, so I wouldn’t want to get dogmatic on it.
So…do you take the Rom 11 “all Israel will be saved”…the ‘all’ to be figurative (if it means only 144000)….or do you take the 144000 to be figurative, and it to mean “all Israel”?

I Take that as the start of the grafting. I think it is a time of repentance as spoken of by the Prophet Zechariah in Zechariah 12:10-14. I see the 144000 as being the witnesses to all of Israel. It is like How Jesus intended the witness of the disciples to grow exponentially, and they are said to represent the twelve tribes. Each of twelve was to have twelve disciples, and those 144 each have twelve..... and it grows exponentially to all.

 

[Naomi25]

I Take that as the start of the grafting. I think it is a time of repentance as spoken of by the Prophet Zechariah in Zechariah 12:10-14. I see the 144000 as being the witnesses to all of Israel. It is like How Jesus intended the witness of the disciples to grow exponentially, and they are said to represent the twelve tribes. Each of twelve was to have twelve disciples, and those 144 each have twelve..... and it grows exponentially to all.

That’s an interesting take on it, thanks for sharing.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I’m sure you mean well, but I don’t have the time to chase down all those links

Thanks So Much for your honesty! This will save some time ):

God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery :
Part I

Grace And Peace, Precious friend(s). Have you Prayerfully And Carefully Considered!:
Rightly Dividing God's WORD {All Scriptures Are KJB} Of Truth?

"Example" of God’s leaders/numbers / Salvation/commissions in:

His TWO Different Programs:​

LORD JESUS, we pray that You Would Help our understanding, as we:

Begin:
(1) Representative apostles + number! For God’s LAW/PROPHETIC Program,
“prophesied since the world began!” (Luke_1:68-70; Acts_3:21!):

God’s Complete Number TWELVE represents:

TWELVE baptismS, TWELVE apostles who will rule in the Prophesied kingdom
With CHRIST!, on TWELVE thrones, Over the TWELVE tribes of Israel!
(Genesis_49:28; Isaiah_9:7, 32:1; Matthew_19:28; Luke_22:30; James_1:1!)

►► Peter [+11], TWELVE preached:

gospel of the kingdom!:​

(A) Salvation = "he that believeth AND is baptized Shall Be SAVED!"
(Mark_16:16 cp Luke_7:29-30; Acts_2:38; James_2:17-18!) ◄◄

(B) And Includes The LORD’s FIVE-Part Marching Orders, the
so-called ( added as a Page Header in Bibles ) Great Commission:

(B1):
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in The Name
Of The Father, and Of The SON, and of The Holy Ghost: Teaching
them to Observe ALL Things Whatsoever I Have Commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen!”

(Matthew_28:19-20!)​

Including: “Observe ALL things WHATSOEVER I Have COMMANDED you!”:

“Then Spake JESUS To the multitude, And To HIS disciples,
Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
ALL therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that OBSERVE
AND DO; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not!”

(Matthew_23:1-3!)​

(B2):
“And HE Said Unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
gospel to every creature. He that believeth And is baptized shall
be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these
signs Shall Follow them that believe: In MY Name shall they cast out
devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents;

and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they
shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover…. And they went
forth, and preached every where, The LORD Working With them, and
Confirming The Word With signs following. Amen!” (Mark_16:15-20!)

(B3):
“And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in
HIS Name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are
witnesses of these things. And, behold, I Send The Promise of MY
Father Upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be
endued with power From On High!” (Luke_24:47-49!)

(B4):
“Then Said JESUS To them again, Peace Be Unto you: As MY Father
Hath Sent ME, Even So Send I you. And When HE Had Said This, HE
Breathed On them, And Saith Unto them, Receive ye The Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and
whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained!” (John_20:21-23!)

(B5):
“But ye shall receive power, after that The Holy Ghost Is Come Upon you:
and ye shall be witnesses unto ME both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea,
and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth!” (Acts_1:8!)

End of: Salvation / Commission In God's "Law/Prophetic Program!"

From CHRIST To HIS TWELVE, on the earth! { Currently “On HOLD!” }
------------------------------------------------------------------
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 KJB!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:
-------------------------------------------------
From CHRIST To HIS one, From Heaven!! { Currently ACTIVE!}

to be continued...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery :

Part 2 of: God's Approval/TWO gospels in Prophecy vs Mystery!

From CHRIST To HIS TWELVE, on the earth! { Currently “On HOLD!” }
------------------------------------------------------------------
Rightly Divided (2_Timothy_2:15!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:
-------------------------------------------------
From CHRIST To HIS one, From Heaven!! { Currently ACTIVE!}

Begin:
(2) Representative apostle + number / God’s Salvation And Commission In HIS:

Revelation Of The MYSTERY​

God’s Heavenly Hidden Purpose Before “the foundation
of the world...Kept Secret since the world began”
(Romans_16:25; Ephesians_1:4-11, 3:5-9!)

{ Precious friend(s), IF you have Never prayerfully/carefully studied
This Important Doctrine ( Paul’s Distinctive ministry From God! )
before, Please take some time for ”Approval Unto God!,” Please? }:

►►►
"Howbeit for this cause I obtained Mercy, That In me First JESUS CHRIST
Might Shew Forth ALL Longsuffering, For a Pattern to them which should
hereafter believe on HIM to life everlasting!” (1_Timothy_1:16!) ◄◄◄

God's First number, ONE, Represents:

"...One body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in One hope of
your calling; ONE Lord, One faith, ONE Baptism, ONE God and Father..."
(Ephesians_4:4-6!), "...ONE Mediator..." (1_Timothy_2:5!),
"...ONE New Man..." (Ephesians_2:15!), And:

Chosen By God:
ONE individual apostle, Paul, Both Roman and Hebrew
(Acts_9:6, 15, 13:2, 20:24, 22:1-15, 21, 25-28, 26:17-18; Philippians_3:5;
Romans_1:1, 11:13, 15:16-18; Galatians_1:15, 2:7-8; Ephesians_3:1;
1_Timothy_1:11, 2:7; 2_Timothy_1:11!), who represents:

Reconciliation, By GRACE (2_Corinthians_5:17-6:2!), of Both Jew And
Gentile, as Individuals, Into “ONE New Man!” (Ephesians_2:15-16!)

SPIRITUALLY Baptized ( And Spiritually United as
members of one another! ), BY: ONE Baptism!
(1_Corinthians_12:13 cp Ephesians_4:5, 5:30!), Into:

ONE Body, In HEAVEN!...​

... [ By The DEADLY, But Amazingly Wonderful CROSS! ] Of CHRIST,
The Risen And Glorified SAVIOUR, The Only HEAD Of HIS Church!!
(1_Timothy_3:16; Ephesians_1:22, 5:23; Colossians_1:18!)
Praise HIS Precious NAME! Amen?

The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!:​

(A)
“For I [ Paul! ] delivered unto you first of all That Which I also received,
How That CHRIST Died For our sins According To The Scriptures;
And That HE Was Buried, And That HE Rose Again the third day
According To The Scriptures!” (1_Corinthians_15:3-4!)
+
"For By GRACE are ye SAVED Through faith; and that not of yourselves:
It Is The Gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast!"
( Ephesians_2:8-9! cp Most of Romans through Philemon! # )

{ GRACE {UNmerited Favor!} Found 85 Times! }​

(B) And, The MYSTERY Includes The LORD’s Greater GRACE Commission! =

Ministry of RECONCILIATION!

"And all things are of God, Who Hath Reconciled us To Himself By
JESUS CHRIST, And Hath Given To us the ministry of reconciliation;
to wit, That God Was In CHRIST, Reconciling the world Unto Himself,
Not Imputing their trespasses unto them; And Hath Committed Unto us

The Word Of Reconciliation!

Now then we are ambassadors for CHRIST, as though God Did Beseech
you by us: we pray you in CHRIST’s Stead, be ye reconciled to God! For
HE Hath Made HIM To Be sin For us, WHO Knew no sin; that we might Be

Made The Righteousness Of God In HIM!

We then, as workers together with HIM, beseech you also that ye receive
not The GRACE Of God in vain! (For HE Saith, I Have Heard thee in a time
accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured [helped] thee: behold,
now is the accepted time; behold, NOW IS THE DAY OF SALVATION!!)”
(2_Corinthians_5:18-6:2!) Today, simply believe The Gospel Of GRACE! {(A) above!}

(C)
The Body Of CHRIST, with "...faith that worketh by love...Fulfills All The law In That
ONE WORD: LOVE thy neighbor as thyself!" (Galatians_5:6, 14; Romans_13:8-10!)

End: God’s Salvation And Commission In HIS Revelation Of The MYSTERY!

----------------------------------------
Concluding questions for thought(s) of Precious friend(s):

(1) IF, as some believe, the Great commission is For us, today, should we
not Also obey All That CHRIST “Commanded within That commission"?
{if necessary, please review Prophecy/LAW above, ok?}

(2) IF, as some believe, there is only one gospel, and, that Peter AND Paul Both
preached The Exact SAME thing, then why would God "Reveal A Secret," that
"He Had Already revealed {ie: The Exact SAME thing}"? Does that make sense,
Precious friend(s)? For a few Similarities and Many Distinctions please go here!

"...The Mystery [Secret] of CHRIST, Which in other ages was Not made known unto the
sons of men, as it is Now Revealed Unto his holy apostles and prophets By the Spirit;”
(Ephesians_3:4-5}

(3) For 11 years as a baby In CHRIST, I was not aware of the above, only being
taught pick and choose theology. I pray this simple lesson will challenge one or
more to Seriously Consider the question: Am I really "Approved Unto God"?

See Bible "study" Rules - here is #2:

“Study to shew thyself Approved unto God, a workman that
needeth not to be ashamed, Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth!”
(2_Timothy_2:15 KJB!)

Precious friend(s), Please Be Very RICHLY Blessed In
CHRIST, And, in Rightly Dividing HIS Precious WORD Of Truth!
----------------------------------
LORD JESUS, Thank You So Much for Your
GRACE, Peace, Mercy, Love, and Approval! Amen.

 

[Oseas]

Revelation 11:v.15 and 18

15 - The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD(of this Devil's world) are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The END of the World
Remember: JESUS warned: the harvest is the END of the world; Matt.13:v.39

18 - And the nations will be angry, and GOD's wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear HIS name, small and great; and should DESTROY them which destroy the earth. By the way, what is His name? Acts 4:v.12

The manifestation of GOD's wrath and the punishments against the current Devil's world with its Power and Glory are underway, the time of the END of ALL THINGS arrived,and simultaneously the ETERNAL chastisements have already started. Remember: The beginning of the severe and strong chastisements had a specific time to begin, the time of its beginning has arrived and will never stop at all, it has started and will be for ever and ever. The Word is GOD.

Get ready

 

[Truth7t7]

Could be. Doesn’t specifically say, however, so I wouldn’t want to get dogmatic on it.
So…do you take the Rom 11 “all Israel will be saved”…the ‘all’ to be figurative (if it means only 144000)….or do you take the 144000 to be figurative, and it to mean “all Israel”?

The Church is the Israel of God, the "Remnant Jew" in Roman's 11 will be saved and "Added" to the Church on earth

When the last name is added to the book of life then and only then (All Israel Will Be Saved)

Two Israel's are seen below, Two

1) Israel of the flesh, these are not the children of God

2) Israel the Church, children of the promised seed

Roman's 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Oseas]

Remember:

They which shall be accounted WORTHY to obtain that WORLD (yeah, worthy to reach the world to come-the third celestial place in Christ), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. Luke 20:v.35-36

Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us... Luke 13:v.24-25

Remember:
The Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

 

[Naomi25]

The Church is the Israel of God, the "Remnant Jew" in Roman's 11 will be saved and "Added" to the Church on earth

When the last name is added to the book of life then and only then (All Israel Will Be Saved)

Two Israel's are seen below, Two

1) Israel of the flesh, these are not the children of God

2) Israel the Church, children of the promised seed

Roman's 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes, I would agree with you.

 

[Naomi25]

Thanks So Much for your honesty! This will save some time ):

God's Approval/TWO Gospels In Prophecy vs Mystery :
Part I

Grace And Peace, Precious friend(s). Have you Prayerfully And Carefully Considered!:
Rightly Dividing God's WORD {All Scriptures Are KJB} Of Truth?

"Example" of God’s leaders/numbers / Salvation/commissions in:

His TWO Different Programs:​

LORD JESUS, we pray that You Would Help our understanding, as we:

With all due respect, I’m not sure this is all that much shorter! I will do my very best to reply to you, but upfront disclosure, I have ASD, and am not following some of your train of thoughts.

My first concern here is…”all scriptures are KJB”
I recognize that many people enjoy using the King James Version, or bible. But I’m not at all encouraged in dialogue when I encounter those who insist that the KJV is the only version that retains fidelity. I don’t believe that is a valid or factual observation.

Also, while I suppose you attempt to prove a ‘2 program’ idea below, I must say, I see no such thing in scripture. But, we’ll keep that for later I suppose.

Begin:
(1) Representative apostles + number! For God’s LAW/PROPHETIC Program,
“prophesied since the world began!” (Luke_1:68-70; Acts_3:21!):

God’s Complete Number TWELVE represents:

TWELVE baptismS, TWELVE apostles who will rule in the Prophesied kingdom
With CHRIST!, on TWELVE thrones, Over the TWELVE tribes of Israel!
(Genesis_49:28; Isaiah_9:7, 32:1; Matthew_19:28; Luke_22:30; James_1:1!)

►► Peter [+11], TWELVE preached:

gospel of the kingdom!:​

(A) Salvation = "he that believeth AND is baptized Shall Be SAVED!"
(Mark_16:16 cp Luke_7:29-30; Acts_2:38; James_2:17-18!) ◄◄

(B) And Includes The LORD’s FIVE-Part Marching Orders, the
so-called ( added as a Page Header in Bibles ) Great Commission:

(B1):
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in The Name
Of The Father, and Of The SON, and of The Holy Ghost: Teaching
them to Observe ALL Things Whatsoever I Have Commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen!”

(Matthew_28:19-20!)​

Including: “Observe ALL things WHATSOEVER I Have COMMANDED you!”:

“Then Spake JESUS To the multitude, And To HIS disciples,
Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
ALL therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that OBSERVE
AND DO; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not!”

(Matthew_23:1-3!)​

(B2):
“And HE Said Unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the
gospel to every creature. He that believeth And is baptized shall
be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these
signs Shall Follow them that believe: In MY Name shall they cast out
devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents;

and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they
shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover…. And they went
forth, and preached every where, The LORD Working With them, and
Confirming The Word With signs following. Amen!” (Mark_16:15-20!)

(B3):
“And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in
HIS Name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are
witnesses of these things. And, behold, I Send The Promise of MY
Father Upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be
endued with power From On High!” (Luke_24:47-49!)

(B4):
“Then Said JESUS To them again, Peace Be Unto you: As MY Father
Hath Sent ME, Even So Send I you. And When HE Had Said This, HE
Breathed On them, And Saith Unto them, Receive ye The Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and
whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained!” (John_20:21-23!)

(B5):
“But ye shall receive power, after that The Holy Ghost Is Come Upon you:
and ye shall be witnesses unto ME both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea,
and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth!” (Acts_1:8!)

End of: Salvation / Commission In God's "Law/Prophetic Program!"

Forgive me, but…I am unsure what you are trying to prove or get at by these points.
What do you mean by “End of: Salvation/Commission in God’s “Law/Prophetic Program”. You’re going to need to spell it out in a more conversational manner for me to grasp it, sorry. At the moment its just a rather meaningless string of words grouped together.

From CHRIST To HIS TWELVE, on the earth! { Currently “On HOLD!” }
------------------------------------------------------------------
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 KJB!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:
-------------------------------------------------
From CHRIST To HIS one, From Heaven!! { Currently ACTIVE!}

to be continued...

Again, I’m completely missing your point. How do you arrive at “on hold” for Christ and ‘his 12’, but ‘active’ for Christ ‘from heaven’…and whatever does that even mean?
If this is attempting to show ‘2 programs’, I’m not seeing it…indeed…I’m afraid I’m not seeing anything, sorry. Again…not necessarily your fault.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I have ASD

I apologize as I had no idea. Yes, my "study" format is foreign to others, too.
I will work on making it more conversational. May God Encourage you Richly!!

 

[Enoch111]

The Church is the Israel of God, the "Remnant Jew" in Roman's 11 will be saved and "Added" to the Church on earth

This is totally incorrect and thoroughly confused and confusing.

While the Church no doubt is called "the Israel of God" within a certain context, that does NOT nullify God's plan for redeemed and restored Israel (the 12 tribes) on earth after the Second Coming of Christ.

How do people get things so mixed up? Because they follow the doctrines of men.

 

[Taken]

Why I believe in the rapture.
OP^

Parallels a Jewish Wedding.

 

[Keraz]

This is totally incorrect and thoroughly confused and confusing.

While the Church no doubt is called "the Israel of God" within a certain context, that does NOT nullify God's plan for redeemed and restored Israel (the 12 tribes) on earth after the Second Coming of Christ.

How do people get things so mixed up? Because they follow the doctrines of men.

As the 12 tribes were last together over 3000 years ago, the redeemed and restored Israel cannot be the same as ancient Israel.
Jesus came to save the lost tribes of Israel, Matthew 15:24, He was successful and we Christians are the result.
As Paul says in Galatians 6:14-16, Christians are the Israel of God. Its all quite simple and Biblically correct.

We will gather into all of the holy Land, soon after the Lord has cleared and cleansed it. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26, +
Jesus will stand on Mt Zion, Revelation 14:1-8 and select 144,000 people out of the 12 divisions of the new Christian nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
They will go out to the nations and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19

Many events will happen before Jesus Returns to commence His Millennium reign. We must stand firm in our faith thru it all, to receive our rewards when Jesus comes. Matthew 16:27

This story is the Biblical doctrine of God.

 

[Keraz]

Why I believe in the rapture.
OP^

Parallels a Jewish Wedding.

The Jews and their traditions, have no bearing on what God plans for our future. Jeremiah 8 & 9

 

[Taken]

The Jews and their traditions, have no bearing on what God plans for our future. Jeremiah 8 & 9

Ok probably not your future, but yes in my future.