Why I believe in the rapture.

[Naomi25]

And I would suggest that this grafting back is on an individual basis, not a national basis.

It would almost have to be, would it not? If one is saved (grafted back on) by ones relationship to Jesus. But…there still seems to be the implication given by Paul, that a great many of the THEN national Jews (whenever that time may be) will come to the realisation that Jesus IS their Messiah, and then come to him. In that way is ‘all’ Israel saved, and national Israel being ‘beloved because of their forefathers’.
Wouldn’t you say?

 

[David H.]

And I (the LORD) will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. (Zechariah 12:10-14)

 

[Brakelite]

It would almost have to be, would it not? If one is saved (grafted back on) by ones relationship to Jesus. But…there still seems to be the implication given by Paul, that a great many of the THEN national Jews (whenever that time may be) will come to the realisation that Jesus IS their Messiah, and then come to him. In that way is ‘all’ Israel saved, and national Israel being ‘beloved because of their forefathers’.
Wouldn’t you say?

I would suggest that only Israel is saved. Then it's easy to understand why, and how, all Israel is saved.

 

[Keraz]

I would suggest that only Israel is saved. Then it's easy to understand why, and how, all Israel is saved.

Who is the true Israel?
Is it just those people who have occupied a small part of the holy Land and who call themselves Israelis?

Jesus gave the reason for His first Advent; the save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:24
Who cannot have been the Jewish people, because if they were, then Jesus failed in His mission.

Plainly; those who have accepted the Salvation of Jesus and who bear the proper fruit, the faithful Christian people from every tribe, race, nation and language, ARE the true Israel of God Galatians 6:14-16

 

[Naomi25]

I would suggest that only Israel is saved. Then it's easy to understand why, and how, all Israel is saved.

I don’t necessarily disagree. But people tend to get upset when you try and align the Church and Israel, so I find it helps to try and step by step breakdown that, in point of fact, there is only ‘in Christ’…which is being grafted onto the tree. Which yes, is “Israel” in truth…but is also the Church.
I think people sometimes forget that the Church started as a purely Jewish thing. The Church was borne of the 12 essentially, and the other close disciples of Christ. It moved to the 5000 on Pentecost, ’devout’ Jews in Jerusalem, but from other nations, which helped spread it. In that way, its almost impossible to separate the Church from believing Jews. Because believing Jews have always been the elect body of God, stretching back to Abraham.
I think what we see in Romans 11 is what we see playing out in history, really. In the OT we saw national Israel being the people group that God chose his ‘elect’ from primarily…with a few Gentiles tossed in there…Rahab, Ruth, for example. But when Christ ‘opened salvation up’ to the nations, and we saw the Jews reject their Messiah, we saw a swing…masses of Gentiles coming to faith…with a few Jewish brothers and sisters among the believers. But I think Paul points to a time when the floodgates will open. The pendulum will swing again and the people who were first elected to bring hope to all the Nations will, in large numbers, be bought to see that Jesus Christ is their Messiah. It may be this will be in conjunction with Gentile believers coming in as well. But…as Paul elsewhere refers to ‘the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled’, and also to a time where the Church as we know it having a massive apostasy…It may very well be that a time will come when the Gentiles being grafted onto the tree…onto ‘true Israel’ if you prefer, will cease, and large numbers of ethnic Jews will begin to be grafted back onto it.
I really don’t know what it will look like, but it does seem to me that Paul does speak of a future in gathering of ethnic Jews. And I think that is wonderful. Because I look at so many of them today, clinging to faith in YHWY…and he IS the true God! But without acknowledging his Son Jesus….they are, in fact, rejecting truth, and God himself. And that is tragic. It is glorious when an ethnic Jew comes to know their Messiah, so I pray God will work a miracle there.

 

[Brakelite]

Who is the true Israel?
Is it just those people who have occupied a small part of the holy Land and who call themselves Israelis?

Jesus gave the reason for His first Advent; the save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:24
Who cannot have been the Jewish people, because if they were, then Jesus failed in His mission.

Plainly; those who have accepted the Salvation of Jesus and who bear the proper fruit, the faithful Christian people from every tribe, race, nation and language, ARE the true Israel of God Galatians 6:14-16

Amen. Have accepted and taught that for many years now. Didn't always though. I was once a dispensationalist who thought the nation was still the apple of God's eye. While I do believe that individual Israelis... Or Jews... Have a distinct advantage when they come to Christ, being grafted into their own Vine, I see no future for the nation itself in prophecy. I think that perspective distracts from where the real action is taking place. The church... The Vatican... And the United States.

 

[Taken]

I would suggest that only Israel is saved. Then it's easy to understand why, and how, all Israel is saved.

Before you find ease in understanding,
Who exactly are you calling "Israel" ?

 

[Brakelite]

Before you find ease in understanding,
Who exactly are you calling "Israel" ?

All who are in Christ.

 

[charity]

Who is the true Israel?
Is it just those people who have occupied a small part of the holy Land and who call themselves Israelis?

Jesus gave the reason for His first Advent; the save the lost House of Israel. Matthew 15:24
Who cannot have been the Jewish people, because if they were, then Jesus failed in His mission.

Plainly; those who have accepted the Salvation of Jesus and who bear the proper fruit, the faithful Christian people from every tribe, race, nation and language, ARE the true Israel of God Galatians 6:14-16

'But He answered and said,
I am not sent but unto the lost sheep
of the house of Israel.'
(Mat 15:24)

'He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.'
But as many as received Him,
to them gave He power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on His name: ... '
(Joh 1:11-12)

'Now I say that Jesus Christ
was a minister of the circumcision
for the truth of God,
to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy;
as it is written, 'For this cause
I will confess to thee among the Gentiles,
and sing unto thy name.'
(Rom 15:8-9)

Hello @keras,

There is no failure on the part of the Lord Jesus Christ in regard to Israel . His purpose in coming to 'the circumcision', or to 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel', was, 'to confirm the promises made unto the Fathers'. This He did and more.

He came unto His Own, and His Own received Him not. Yet, according to the will of God a remnant were saved, but it is stated clearly in Scripture that ultimately 'all Israel will be saved'.

Thank you
In Jesus
Chris

 

[Taken]

All who are in Christ.

And, where do Gods People who are specifically called "Israel" who are not "IN" Christ, fit into your scenario ?

2 SAM 3:
[18] Now then do it: for the LORD hath spoken of David, saying, By the hand of my servant David I will save my people Israel out of the hand of the Philistines, and out of the hand of all their enemies.

 

[Brakelite]

And, where do Gods People who are specifically called "Israel" who are not "IN" Christ, fit into your scenario ?

2 SAM 3:
[18] Now then do it: for the LORD hath spoken of David, saying, By the hand of my servant David I will save my people Israel out of the hand of the Philistines, and out of the hand of all their enemies.

Those specifically named Israel that you reference, were so named as a corporate body because they were children of he who was named Israel... Jacob. A name that reflected overcoming. Israel at the time of Christ, the corporate body that crucified Him, no longer were believers, let alone over-comers, therefore their house was left unto them desolate.
Christ is the true Israel. He is the over-comer. Only He, after the failure of Adam, defeated Satan and lived up to the name Israel. His children are the children of Israel.

 

[Truth7t7]

'But He answered and said,
I am not sent but unto the lost sheep
of the house of Israel.'
(Mat 15:24)

'He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.'
But as many as received Him,
to them gave He power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on His name: ... '
(Joh 1:11-12)

'Now I say that Jesus Christ
was a minister of the circumcision
for the truth of God,
to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy;
as it is written, 'For this cause
I will confess to thee among the Gentiles,
and sing unto thy name.'
(Rom 15:8-9)

Hello @keras,

There is no failure on the part of the Lord Jesus Christ in regard to Israel . His purpose in coming to 'the circumcision', or to 'the lost sheep of the house of Israel', was, 'to confirm the promises made unto the Fathers'. This He did and more.

He came unto His Own, and His Own received Him not. Yet, according to the will of God a remnant were saved, but it is stated clearly in Scripture that ultimately 'all Israel will be saved'.

Thank you
In Jesus
Chris

All Israel will be saved, when the last Soul is added to the Church, the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

 

[Taken]

Those specifically named Israel that you reference, were so mashed as a corporate body because they were children of he who was named Israel... Jacob. A name that reflected overcoming. Israel at the time of Christ, the corporate body that crucified Him, no longer were believers, let alone over-comers, therefore their house was left unto them desolate.
Christ is the true Israel. He is the over-comer. Only He, after the failure of Adam, defeated Satan and lived up to the name Israel. His children are the children of Israel.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[David in NJ]

There are a lot of Questions when the rapture will take place, But the main reason i believe there will be a rapture is that this is how God has acted in the past.

The righteous chosen ones have never been allowed to see the wrath of God.
Noah was sealed in an ark, Lot and His family were told not to look back. Israel and their families were protected by the passover blood, and we as the church are made righteous by the blood of the lamb of God will be protected.

Whether this rapture is as they show in movies or some other form of protection I do not think Scripture is clear, but I do know the church, the saints will not witness the Wrath of God.... The wrath of Satan and the wrath of the lamb are two different things all together.

National Israel on the other hand will witness the wrath of God, and drink of the cup of the wrath of God till they are drunk and then be spared.

Well, if by the term 'rapture', you mean deliverance from God's wrath, then you are 100% CORRECT.

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 1 Thessalonians 5:9

But, if you are looking for and placing your trust in a 'pre-trib' rapture = you have been sold a lie and a false hope.


11Therefore https://biblehub.com/nkjv/1_thessalonians/5.htm#footnotescomfort each other and [c]edify one another, just as you also are doing