Why I'm Not a Theist Anymore

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amadeus

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Can you prove that Jesus resurrection did actually happen?

(Except you must provide historical evidence for such an account outside of the Biblical texts themselves)

I challenge you and all Christian's this.

Is faith finished yet in me or in any believer replaced completely by the knowledge which God has, which Jesus as man manifested?

Within me there is faith, but there is also knowledge given to me by God. As the old man decreases [if he does] and as the new man increases [if he does] in me is that on the approach to the finishing of our faith?

What I have from God, be it in the form of faith or knowledge or some combination thereof, is not transferable by me to another person unless God is in the transfer. A doubting or skeptical heart has already set up a blockade against God. God allows that... it is part of His plan. You challenge but remember what was written here:

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Heb 12:2

Faith is where it begins. You may not like that, but it is what it is. God allows you to doubt or to live in unbelief for your allotted time... but when that time is ended, what will remain of @I.O.U ? That is your own question.

That you are still here pursuing these things is a wonder, is it not? What a mighty God some of here serve!
 

I.O.U

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Wrangler

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Biblical narrative written almost a generation or more after said events.

It seems absurd in our culture. In the culture of the Apostles, they had a strong oral tradition. Most people learn of their testimony orally today, just as it was then.

Clearly, it was an after-thought, of secondary importance to put it in writing. Again, I realize that seems absurd in our culture. For 15 years I've been studying the affect of culture on the human experience. I believe it influences our thinking more than we are conscious of most of the time.
 
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Wrangler

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Personal anecdotal testimonies are of little value when searching for truth

You are lost. Enemies of God deliberately set a standard of proof designed to fail the chosen people. Obviously, you have little trust in your fellow man.

In Evidence To Be Seen, I delve into standards of proof. In short, let's use the legal civil standard of more likely than not. And let's take another ancient event, the assassination of Julius Caesar. Why do you accept the testimony of those who affirm the assassination of Caesar but reject the much greater evidence supporting the resurrection of Christ?
 

Wrangler

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We disagree. The foundation of Christianity is the gospel of the Christ and the gospel is laid out in the scriptures. If the scriptures aren't FULLY trustworthy then the message therein becomes doubtful, especially when supernatural claims are asserted.

Amazing how frequently this transparent tactic is embraced by the lost, the walking dead.

Enemies of God deliberately set a standard of proof designed to fail the chosen people.
 

Wrangler

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There is only one valid reason for rejecting Christianity and that is because one can demonstrate that Jesus did not rise from the dead.

Sadly, I disagree. The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim. Denying the claim has no burden. (Don't use semantics to pretend denying the claim is making a claim for such a twist is a negative claim, negating the positive claim).

I hold the one valid reason to reject Christ is the person is not chosen and has not been given ears to hear or eyes to see.
 

Berserk

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Truth OT: Sort of. I was convinced that I had received the gift of the Holy Spirit after believing the gospel, repenting, and being baptized into Christ per Acts 2:38. Do you object to what the texts declares about the receipt of the HG?

No, I object to your apparent ignorance of what the NT teaches about the experiential basis for the Christian claim to have received and been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

Truth OT: "It hasn't been. Biblical narrative written almost a generation or more after said events."

This glib reply demonstrates your ignorance of the standard scholarly case for Jesus' miracles and the easily established connection between eyewitness testimony and Jesus' resurrection. You pretend a thorough consideration of the case for Christianity, and yet, you show little evidence of an understanding beyond Sunday School level.

I repeat: Would you even want to find out that you're wrong, if in fact you were wrong? I'm trying to determine if your quest has a smidgeon of intellectual integrity to see whether you're worth engaging. I will fully engage you on one condition: that you watch the 3 best online Youtube documentaries on the 3 greatest revivals of the 20th century and discuss their evidential value with me. If you agree, I will post those documentaries and, if you wish, even provide my private e-mail and phone number for private discussion. btw, I was a Teaching Fellow at Harvard in New Testament and Classics during my doctoral studies and then a Theology professor for 12 years before becoming a Methodist pastor.

My provisional claim: you will not be able to watch and discuss in detail these 3 revival videos and remain an agnostic. Prove me wrong!
 

I.O.U

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It seems absurd in our culture. In the culture of the Apostles, they had a strong oral tradition. Most people learn of their testimony orally today, just as it was then.

Clearly, it was an after-thought, of secondary importance to put it in writing. Again, I realize that seems absurd in our culture. For 15 years I've been studying the affect of culture on the human experience. I believe it influences our thinking more than we are conscious of most of the time.
Purple monkey dishwasher.

Google that remark :)
 

I.O.U

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You are lost. Enemies of God deliberately set a standard of proof designed to fail the chosen people. Obviously, you have little trust in your fellow man.

In Evidence To Be Seen, I delve into standards of proof. In short, let's use the legal civil standard of more likely than not. And let's take another ancient event, the assassination of Julius Caesar. Why do you accept the testimony of those who affirm the assassination of Caesar but reject the much greater evidence supporting the resurrection of Christ?
I think no I'm sure Christopher Hitchens pointed out why this kind of reasoning is irrational.
 
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I.O.U

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Unable to have an actual conversation. Don't risk independent thought, just defer. In logic, Appeal to Diversion.
Wrangler your reply to the O.P in post #64 doesn't originate from yourself intially. I could have responded with the actual counter argument, but I thought not to.

Not sure why yet.
 

bbyrd009

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So it's all metaphorical for you?
hmm, i hate to say that categorically as it applies so well irl, but more or less, ya

not sure how else one would reconcile
No son of man may die for another’s sins,
and ive been tryna disprove the pov for a couple years now…
 

Brakelite

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We disagree. The foundation of Christianity is the gospel of the Christ and the gospel is laid out in the scriptures. If the scriptures aren't FULLY trustworthy then the message therein becomes doubtful, especially when supernatural claims are asserted.
If every testimony was identical, without variation or possibility of error, you would reject it the same as modern prosecutors would... It's contrived.
 

Wrangler

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Wrangler your reply to the O.P in post #64 doesn't originate from yourself intially.

Accusing me of plagiarism? Another may have used the same argument to show the fallacy of your position. Facts are in 3 categories of increasing confidence:
  1. Accepted facts (like documented history, e.g., Julius Caesar was assassinated or that there even was a Roman Empire)
  2. Eye Witness Testimony (Corroborating documents or other evidence, not hearsay and not one person making assertions, e.g., Americans still in Kabul)
  3. Demonstrable facts (the height of the Empire State Building can be measured today)
Fact is, the life and resurrection of Jesus is the best documented fact of the ancient world, by far. If one rejects this, the question becomes why does one accept any facts from antiquity? The answer is obvious, ones own religious bias, i.e., your bias.

The Evidence to be Seen thread, which I referenced in Post #64 is my original work, which includes a compilation of the works of others. I suggest you check it out to satisfy your own curiosity. The Evidence to be Seen is FAR more than a logical reference to Caesar. If you are brave enough to look.

I could have responded with the actual counter argument, but I thought not to.

Not sure why yet.

Why you leave the field of ideas is obvious. You KNOW your argument is weak and it cannot withstand scrutiny. A part of you does not want to give in to reason. That is why you are here on this forum. You could find an agnostic forum but that is not satisfying. The truth is deniable but the consequences of denying the truth is not. Something inside you is stirring and I pray that it grows.

Let me tell you a story. Years ago I encountered an 'agnostic' who actually stated he was only 99.9% sure there is no God. I pressured him on his doubt and lack of courage for he was playing word games. In truth, he was a hard core atheist but did not want to intellectually defend his position. So, he went what he thought was less susceptible to legitimate criticism. The 'not sure' position is immature, a wok in progress, an incomplete analysis. So, I proceeded on the Superman Argument. Psychologically uncomfortable stating his own reasons for doubt, he abandoned the field.

Plato said the unexamined life is not worth living. Of course, if you do not want to examine life but coast on what you've been indoctrinated with, that's up to you. Robert Frost's poem, The Road Less Travelled observes it has made all the difference! Indeed. God speed, friend. :)
 

I.O.U

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You are lost. Enemies of God deliberately set a standard of proof designed to fail the chosen people. Obviously, you have little trust in your fellow man.

In Evidence To Be Seen, I delve into standards of proof. In short, let's use the legal civil standard of more likely than not. And let's take another ancient event, the assassination of Julius Caesar. Why do you accept the testimony of those who affirm the assassination of Caesar but reject the much greater evidence supporting the resurrection of Christ?
I'll explain why this line of reasoning is really not an effective way to prove the validity of the accounts written about Jesus.

Firstly: Believing Ceasar or Plato to be real historical figures will not have the same impact as would believing in Jesus. It's doesn't matter if I believed in Ceasar or not, it doesn't matter if I believed in Plato or not. Because there is no formal punishment they themselves will dish out on me for not believing they exist.

Secondly: Of the enormous body of New Testament documents that you believe add weight to the historical Jesus being real; it is in fact a enormous body of fragmented documents that show major theological inconsistencies from document to document and fragment to fragment.

Shall I go on, there's is more.
 
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Wrangler

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Firstly: Believing Ceasar or Plato to be real historical figures will not have the same impact as would believing in Jesus.

This is an illogical juxtaposition. The idea of changing the standard of proof AGAINST a more impactful reality is hateful in the extreme.

Said differently, the same standard of proof for accepting what you deem the least impact should be the EXACT SAME as the most impactful fact. A is A. Facts are facts. Believing in Julius Caesar but not Jesus, despite having much more evidence, is illogical and, as I said hateful. Your bias.

Secondly: Of the enormous body of New Testament documents that you believe add weight to the historical Jesus being real; it is in fact a enormous body of fragmented documents that show major theological inconsistencies from document to document and fragment to fragment.

I agree to a certain extent. Among Christians, there is a raging debate/dispute on Paul's emphasis on faith alone saves, while James advances a faith without works is dead doctrine. It would be enlightening to draw out the specific APPARENT inconsistencies you have in mind and get input from all our resident experts. :)

Shall I go on, there's is more.

By all means, go on.