Why I'm Not a Theist Anymore

[Willie T]

Thorry...holding my tongue.

I hope I didn't cause you to splatter your keyboard. LOL

 

[Truth OT]

Through all my doctrinal positions, one thing never wavered and that was my conviction that the Bible was God's inspired, infallible, perfect word without error or contradiction. My Christian walk and even my relationship with God was based on this being the reality. It was the very foundation upon which everything was built for without the Bible being true, than the God it declared may not be what it declared and that would mean that my concept and God and the relationship I had with my concept was of my own volition and not based on objective authority.

For me, where the rubber met the road was here. If it could be demonstrated that there was even a single error in the Bible, an unfulfilled prophecy, or a contradiction, I would have to deal with the realization that the foundation upon which my faith and my perceived relationship with my Lord was was not a reliable foundation. It didn't matter what i wanted to be true, it didn't matter what i felt in my heart, I would have to deal with whatever results the evidence in reality yielded. In the end, the jury weighted the evidence and concluded that the compilation of writings known as the Bible was not qualified to be considered the word of God, but rather a work of man.

I fought this realization for a while, begging God in prayer to guide me to truth and to allow me to the right type of 'soil' so truth could grow and not get choked out. Maybe the Bible wasn't perfect, maybe man did write it without divine intervention, but I still had a relationship with God right? I mean I know how I felt for decades, I know the comfort I received from my relationship, I still desired to make my maker proud, BUT, who exactly was my maker? If the Bible was not reliable, how could I know not only who my creator was but what it was? Had my mind fabricated a relationship based on what I THOUGHT God was like? How could I verify that my God anything more than a creation of my mind based on what I had experienced and been taught? Was it real or just real to me? Ultimately I was forced to accept that the God and relationship with him I created in my mind was just that, a creation of my mind. And in reality, I had no measure to determine what character qualities and traits God actually had. I couldn't access its mind to know its will or purposes, and I had no way of even determining that a knowable god actually existed.

 

[Truth OT]

Sort of like, "I knew THAT was the Truth before.... But, now that I am enlightened, I know THIS is the Truth, instead." (I wonder what it's going to be tomorrow?)

More like, I was originally taught that "a" was right and I didn't examine it prior to accepting it. I was challenged to examine it and would that it came up wanting, so what was once believed had to be amended. That realization that beliefs should be vetted then becomes a practice and allows for constant growth where knowledge can be added and one doesn't allow themselves to rest on their laurels and assume they know it all and will never need to have a change of mind.

 

[ScottA]

For me, where the rubber met the road was here. If it could be demonstrated that there was even a single error in the Bible, an unfulfilled prophecy, or a contradiction, I would have to deal with the realization that the foundation upon which my faith and my perceived relationship with my Lord was was not a reliable foundation. It didn't matter what i wanted to be true, it didn't matter what i felt in my heart, I would have to deal with whatever results the evidence in reality yielded. In the end, the jury weighted the evidence and concluded that the compilation of writings known as the Bible was not qualified to be considered the word of God, but rather a work of man.

I fought this realization for a while, begging God in prayer to guide me to truth and to allow me to the right type of 'soil' so truth could grow and not get choked out. Maybe the Bible wasn't perfect, maybe man did write it without divine intervention, but I still had a relationship with God right? I mean I know how I felt for decades, I know the comfort I received from my relationship, I still desired to make my maker proud, BUT, who exactly was my maker? If the Bible was not reliable, how could I know not only who my creator was but what it was? Had my mind fabricated a relationship based on what I THOUGHT God was like? How could I verify that my God anything more than a creation of my mind based on what I had experienced and been taught? Was it real or just real to me? Ultimately I was forced to accept that the God and relationship with him I created in my mind was just that, a creation of my mind. And in reality, I had no measure to determine what character qualities and traits God actually had. I couldn't access its mind to know its will or purposes, and I had no way of even determining that a knowable god actually existed.

You are looking at it all wrong.

The bible is both inspired by God, but also the testimonies of men. As such, it would be dishonest for men to speak for God regarding their own imperfections, which is their honest witness of themselves. God gave men a platform by which the truth of God is presented by the weaknesses of men. And that makes the error that you perceive to be truth.

 

[Enoch111]

...beliefs should be vetted...

Bible Truth is Bible Truth and beliefs on the basis of the Bible do not need *vetting*.

 

[Willie T]

Bible Truth is Bible Truth and beliefs on the basis of the Bible do not need *vetting*.

I wonder why we are told to "test ALL spirits."?

 

[Enoch111]

I wonder why we are told to "test ALL spirits."?

Satan and his evil spirits will pervert Bible truth through men. Particularly preachers, theologians, and scholars. Therefore we must test or try the spirits in the light of Scripture. Scripture must become the *filter* for all teachings.

 

[Truth OT]

I wonder why we are told to "test ALL spirits."?

A decade plus of indoctrination doesn't just disappear. I sense remnants of the CoC in this comment.

 

[Heart2Soul]

A decade plus of indoctrination doesn't just disappear. I sense remnants of the CoC in this comment.

Our dear brother Willie has gone on to be with the Lord. This is probably one of the last posts he made.

 

[Rita]

I miss him xxx

 

[GaryAnderson]

Our dear brother Willie has gone on to be with the Lord. This is probably one of the last posts he made.

Oh wow. May God have mercy on his soul and bless him.

 

[amadeus]

Oh wow. May God have mercy on his soul and bless him.

Willie T is in ICU

From June of 2020 prayer post on in thread linked above by @Helen

Update.
I just received this from Sue Willie T's wife.
Lets keep praying!!

I have heard people talk about 'graduating' , when someone is passing in. ( Also "Hospice" is connected to palliative care)

I'm so glad he is peaceful and comfortable and loved.
God is having the Glory here, for us Christians it is always a win-win situation. From glory to Glory.

God bless dear Sue and Bill tonight. ♥︎

===============
Hi Helen.

Quick update--Bill's life support was removed yesterday around 6 pm. Tonight he was transferred to Hospice care on the 4th floor of the hospital.
It is very homey, no monitors or hospital equipment. He is on morphine and Ativan and is sleeping peacefully on his side now that ventilator is removed. Nurse said "it won't be long."
I went home this evening and gathered a few things, incl food and snacks because once I go on the floor, I have to stay. I can't leave/come back later. It's a "covid clean" floor so they restrict in/out traffic.

There is a private bath and couch that opens into a bed for me. The staff here are wonderful. Bill is so much more comfortable in the 4 hours we have been here and that gives me great peace of mind. He is in a good place as God prepares him to 'graduate.'

Everything happened so quickly the last couple of days that I haven't had time to write. Would you mind posting my update above to the thread named "Bill is in ICU"?

Thank you for your help. God bless you,
Sue

 

[Truman]

Hey, he quotes a Vineyard guy! I get a weird feeling when I see his picture.

 

[Helen]

Oh boy …seeing Willies photo was like a kick in the gut.

He’s been gone so long now…it was our great loss, but heavens blessing.

Willie missed all this Covid thing …lucky chap…can’t wait to see him again…

 

[Windmillcharge]

If it could be demonstrated that there was even a single error in the Bible, an unfulfilled prophecy, or a contradiction, I would have to deal with the realization that the foundation upon which my faith and my perceived relationship with my Lord was was not a reliable foundation.

You have explained why you do not believe in a God, but you have not explained why you are not a Christian?

Apparently having been taught that the bible is a mystic book miraculously preserved by God, you have discovered that the bible while inspired by God is written and copied by men and that there are errors in those copings. So what.
Can you demonstrate where those errors affct any Christian belief?
Can you demonstrate that Jesus did not get executed, burried and rise from the dead?

 

[Truther]

I would have been a skeptical unbeliever too, if it had not been for the Holy Ghost intervention in my life in 1979.

 

[Truth OT]

You have explained why you do not believe in a God, but you have not explained why you are not a Christian?

The writings that assert the existence, qualities, and alleged will of deity that collectively has been called the Bible by us is a manmade, at times contradictory, other times historically inaccurate, and oftentimes morally relative to the culture of the writer's day book that lacks credibility to be verified as a divinely inspired undertaking. The many men that undertook the writing, most of whom are anonymous in their authorship haven't proven trustworthy. Therefore, their assertions about deity, morality, and other issues is far from being on par with verifiable commands from deity and because of that, their claims about any particular god is laughably unbelievable.
To answer directly, I am no longer a Christian faith-holder because it has been demonstrated to me that the Christian faith is not based in truth and is therefore not trustworthy.

Apparently having been taught that the bible is a mystic book miraculously preserved by God, you have discovered that the bible while inspired by God is written and copied by men and that there are errors in those copings. So what.Can you demonstrate where those errors affct any Christian belief?

The copies aren't the problem. They are apparently well preserved and what we have in modern times is a close match to the oldest manuscripts. So it's not a copy issue, it's a narrative issue where the writer's takes cannot be trusted as complete facts and truth. In other words, THE BIBLE IS NOT GOD-INSPIRED!

Can you demonstrate that Jesus did not get executed, burried and rise from the dead?

The fact that the early church existed in the 1st century is strong evidence that BELIEF in an early 1st century figure known as Jesus (Yahoshua) likely lived and influenced the times. That doesn't mean the figure was the son of deity, was a practitioner of the miraculous, or was raised from the dead. No evidence outside of later gospel writings and letters of Paul (which is hearsay anyway) make the case for a divine messiah.

 

[Windmillcharge]

at times contradictory, other times historically inaccurate

Chapter and verse please.

_Please provide your evidence for this claim.
While looking for it please review the work of Sir Wiliam michael Ramsay " Far from bolstering the widespread belief that the New Testament was defunct as a reliable record of actual historical events, Ramsay came to trust it (especially the Lucan narratives and Pauline epistles) as a reliable and accurate accounts. " https://www.giffordlectures.org/lecturers/william-mitchell-ramsay

No evidence outside of later gospel writings and letters of Paul (which is hearsay anyway) make the case for a divine messiah.

You are familiar with the many accounts that do mention Jesus, many which are hostile to Christianity:- Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible? | Cold Case Christianity

 

[Berserk]

TruthOT,

You seem to be another sad victim of the insipid Domino theory of biblical truth, the theory that one proven biblical error warrants dismissal of the entire biblical revelation. How is your epistemology unfalsifiable, even in principle. In other words, if your whole fundamentalist approach to biblical truth was fallacious, would you even want to find that out? I suspect that your exposure to academic biblical schlarship is minimal; so I doubt you are capable of expressing the standard answers to these questions:
(1) How can Jesus' resurrection be confidently linked to eyewitness testimony?
(2) What is the evidence for Jesus' status as healer?
(3) How could your prior spiritual quest presume inspired biblical inerrancy when:
(a) the Bible never even claims to be inerrant
(b) the NT claims about biblical inspiration apply only to the OT because the NT did not even exist as an agreed upon collection of books until around 200 AD. [No, 2 Peter 3:15-16 does not refute this point.]

Your real problem, I suspect, is that in your Christian phase you assumed the unbiblical teaching that if you repent and believe the Gospel, then the Holy Spirit automatically dwells within you. I doubt (a) that you ever have experienced the Spirit or the gifts of the Spirit in an self-authenticating way, (b) that you have been exposed up close to modern Christian miracles that rival NT miracles, or (c) that you have watched and seriously contemplated the impressive evidence from the best Youtube videos on the Welsh, Azusa Street, and Hebrides revivals of the 20th century. Are you willing to accept my challenges? If so, I will dialogue with you on these decisive issues as long as you wish.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Precious skeptic friend(s): IF, in the End, The BIBLE turns out to be "Not true," but I believe IT anyway, what have I lost, But:

If IT Turns Out "To Be TRUE," then, precious friend(s), WHAT have you Lost?