Have numerous outside documents that corroborate the Gospel accounts of Jesus ministry, miracles and resurrection. Outside documentations from the same era that are not affiliated with the early Church in any major way. Specifying events in history that shed more light on Jesus being who the Gospels say he was, and what he did.
Why I'm Not a Theist Anymore
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I shall, but not now, but soon, but when I am taking leave from the streets. In 2-3 day's I'll go heck for leather on a bulky reply.This is an illogical juxtaposition. The idea of changing the standard of proof AGAINST a more impactful reality is hateful in the extreme.
Said differently, the same standard of proof for accepting what you deem the least impact should be the EXACT SAME as the most impactful fact. A is A. Facts are facts. Believing in Julius Caesar but not Jesus, despite having much more evidence, is illogical and, as I said hateful. Your bias.
I agree to a certain extent. Among Christians, there is a raging debate/dispute on Paul's emphasis on faith alone saves, while James advances a faith without works is dead doctrine. It would be enlightening to draw out the specific APPARENT inconsistencies you have in mind and get input from all our resident experts.
By all means, go on.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
There is sufficient evidence within scripture itself to convince those willing to be convinced that the Bible is trustworthy. Thus eyewitness testimony is entirely sufficient to validate the resurrection. Extra biblical writings are wholly irrelevant.
You wouldn't use this same method for tbe book of Mormon, would you?
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
The first and only time I picked up a book of Mormon was when I had been a Christian for just a few months. I didn't know who Mormons were, and knew nothing of their church. The book was sitting on a coffee table at a friend's place, and I was simply picking it up out of curiosity. I tried twice, and came over physically sick each time. I haven't touched one since.
So no, I wouldn't say the same for the book of Mormon.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wow. 1st, this may be an effective way for you but for billions of people, what moves is personal transformation derived from ones own Road to Damascus.
2nd, 'outside documentation' ought to be considered far less reliable than actual eye witnesses. This is because 'outside documentation' ends up being merely Hearsay. It'd be like believing a map rather than someone who actually went to the territory.
3rd, 'outside documentation' has already been presented to you in this thread, by me and others.
4th, the apocrypha is well known and ought to be considered 'outside documentation'.
5th, I'm sure with a little effort, you could find what you are looking for. Certainly, the human mind is intelligent to rationalize anything - even when the evidence is right before you.
Effective Prayer
7 “Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
Matthew 7:7-8 (NLT)
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No rush. This is important but not urgent.
A personal favor: Please make concise points, making many posts if need be, e.g., inconsistency #1, Scriptures that seem inconsistent, how they are inconsistent, etc. One guy recently has made numerous >1,000 word replies that are too cumbersome to address or even read easily. IMO, too many people clutter up their posts quoting Scripture. We are all familiar and will likely refer to our preferred translations anyhow. Just referencing the verses should suffice and make your posts more concise. Thanks!
More people believing something is true doesn't make it true (Like the earth being flat)
Latin is not the pure language of God. Although that didn't prevent the Catholic Church burning William Tindale on a stake for translating the Bible into English.
I.O.U. is evidently unaware of
(1) how the Gospel testimony to Jesus' miracles can be linked to eyewitness testimony
(2) how Jesus' resurrection can be confidently connected to eyewitness testimony quite apart from the NT Gospels
(3) how Jesus' miracles are attested by first and second century non-Christian Jewish testimony
(4) how modern miracles lend credibility to NT miracle claims
I challenge him to demonstrate otherwise before I do it for him.
(1) how the Gospel testimony to Jesus' miracles can be linked to eyewitness testimony
(2) how Jesus' resurrection can be confidently connected to eyewitness testimony quite apart from the NT Gospels
(3) how Jesus' miracles are attested by first and second century non-Christian Jewish testimony
(4) how modern miracles lend credibility to NT miracle claims
I challenge him to demonstrate otherwise before I do it for him.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I never said anything like this. Just keep in mind that what you need is not necessarily what others need. For me, it was not an intellectual argument on-line or the presentation of rock solid facts. It was a transcending experience. It was the Holy Spirit coming to me in what I learned yesrs later is called, Prevenient grace.
You are at a disadvantage. Whereas you have an argument, we have an experience.
That is horrible but I'm not sure what that has to do with what we are talking about. My theology descends from another martyr, Michael Servetus.
I hope you are not setting up a Strawman that unless every so-called Christian lives a perfect life, it is all phooey. It is said church is a hospital for sinners, not a hotel for Saints. Power is a powerful seductress, even for men of God.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
No . i cant prove anything . EVEN the apostels could not PROVE TO THOMAS JESUS HAD RISEN .
YET BLESSED are those who have not seen , YET BELIEVE . Science , wisdom of men will never be my guide again .
THE HOLY SPIRIT that is my guide . As i said a while back . I cant prove anything to you . Nor can anyone .
All i can do is POINT TO CHRIST . The rest is on you .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
BUT LORD dont you know that saying offended them .
And JESUS said , LET them alone . They be blind guides , every plant that my father has not planted shall be rooted up .
And if the blind lead the blind both fall into the ditch .
ALL WE NEED DO IS PROCLAIM JESUS . Either folks will hear and receive or they will reject . WE cant PROVE A THING .
ONLY GOD can reveal . . As i said , said JESUS ye hear not because you are NOT MY SHEEP .
And JESUS said , LET them alone . They be blind guides , every plant that my father has not planted shall be rooted up .
And if the blind lead the blind both fall into the ditch .
ALL WE NEED DO IS PROCLAIM JESUS . Either folks will hear and receive or they will reject . WE cant PROVE A THING .
ONLY GOD can reveal . . As i said , said JESUS ye hear not because you are NOT MY SHEEP .
You know what. All those KJVO believer's are using a bastardized version of the William Tindale Bible translation.
The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the one asserting something to be so. In this case, YOU. I do not believe YOUR assertion and you haven't proven YOUR assertion true.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
You openly admit you are atheist . So marvel not if i dont heed this advice .
Blind guides point to anything OTHER than JESUS for salvation . Always remember that .
I am not mad at you at all . I know what it is like to be blind . ONLY GOD can open the eyes .
And GOD draws us to FAITH IN CHRIST who indeed gives us the truth .
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