Why I'm Premil

[Spiritual Israelite]

Try to find them. Then you will know the answer for yourself. Don't believe everything you read on the internet!

All you had to do was answer yes or no. So, I guess your answer is yes, that you did not say those things.

So, I did find them. I see now. He was originally quoting things that Davy had said and asked you if you found those things to be as insulting as things we had said that you found to be insulting. And you didn't indicate that you had any problem with what Davy had said. Is that really any better than actually saying those things?

 

[WPM]

Are you even a real Christian? Nothing you say has the spirit of Christ's love in it. How long have you been hood-winking people like this? You have a malicious, accusing spirit. When I try to get us back to civility and to Christian love, your very next comments are more of the same. Others should be warned about you, because you apologize but you don't really repent.

Please put me on your "blocked" list. I have no interest in discussing things with someone with a horrible, self-righteous attitude, who boasts in his knowledge, who declares only he gets to declare what is "Scriptural." I never block anybody in the hope better times may come...

Why would you debate when you have nothing? Keep your bitterness and ad hominem to yourself. It is very unsavory.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why would you debate when you have nothing? Keep your bitterness and ad hominem to yourself. It is very unsavory.

You're immature. Go away.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What in the world are you talking about here? Claiming to believe in Christ and actually believing in Him and trusting in Him as one's personal Lord and Savior are two entirely different things. Why do you not differentiate between the two? Even the demons believe and tremble. Your view seems to imply that even demons are Christians. I don't get it.

Why are you so angry over Amill? Why are you so insistent on calling those you disagree with "hypocrites?" I keep telling you we should drop all of the rhetoric and pick up as Christian brothers and friends, but you seem bent on perpetuating the hostility.

I'm just stating my opinion here--not trying to come across as superior. You asked, so I'm telling you. God asked Israel to be His people. They all, to the last man, woman, and child, agreed to follow the one God.

To me, that is the equivalent of a Christian nation, where all profess to follow the religion of the State. We know that not all will follow through with their commitment, but we should give people the benefit of the doubt until they actually prove to be unChristian.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I figured you must look at me the same way. I obviously spend a lot of time defending Amil, so I figure you must think it's my idol. That's not the case? So, what is it about him that makes Amil his idol but not mine? And how is Premil not your idol?

It's called spiritual discernment. One can tell if even in the strongest disagreement there is reserved a love for the ones you disagree with. I do not find that love at all in WPM--I'm willing to accept him anytime he chooses to drop the rhetoric: "You know nothing, you have nothing."

You just seem to be a little more open--angry, paranoid perhaps, but willing to discuss things. You share with WPM the wish to perpetuate the "hypocrite" charge. Perhaps you should stop associating with him, because bad company corrupts?

 

[WPM]

You're immature. Go away.

You are a real picture of Christ. You are full of such love, grace and truth, not. Thank God Jesus is not like you.

 

[WPM]

It's called spiritual discernment. One can tell if even in the strongest disagreement there is reserved a love for the ones you disagree with. I do not find that love at all in WPM--I'm willing to accept him anytime he chooses to drop the rhetoric: "You know nothing, you have nothing."

You just seem to be a little more open--angry, paranoid perhaps, but willing to discuss things. You share with WPM the wish to perpetuate the "hypocrite" charge. Perhaps you should stop associating with him, because bad company corrupts?

You are manifestly eaten up by bitterness. You are so blind to your own hatred. It is ok for you to acuse those who oppose you of being unsaved and idolaters yet when I simply challenge your lack of any biblical evidence I am suddenly the villian. I don't think so.

 

[marks]

All you had to do was answer yes or no. So, I guess your answer is yes, that you did not say those things.

So, I did find them. I see now. He was originally quoting things that Davy had said and asked you if you found those things to be as insulting as things we had said that you found to be insulting. And you didn't indicate that you had any problem with what Davy had said. Is that really any better than actually saying those things?

So then what do you call it when someone says something negative about someone else that is not true?

Slander?

Lies?

Are we going to be real here, or just try to spin it all away?

Much love!

 

[marks]

All you had to do was answer yes or no.

All you had to do was confirm this was all false before you started repeating it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why are you so angry over Amill?

Yes, there is a LOT of anger here. And one does have to wonder . . . why is that?

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, there is a LOT of anger here. And one does have to wonder . . . why is that?

Much love!

It's one of the checks in my spirit that God gives me when I'm wandering off course. It doesn't even have to be on a wrong doctrine. If I continue to push something off on someone, I sense a certain irritability because I'm not getting my own way. And that's a warning that I'm no longer going God's way. It's a difficult lesson we all have to learn. Unfortunately, some are very late in learning it. But it's difficult for us all! Thanks for emphasizing this point!

 

[marks]

It's one of the checks in my spirit that God gives me when I'm wandering off course. It doesn't even have to be on a wrong doctrine. If I continue to push something off on someone, I sense a certain irritability because I'm not getting my own way. And that's a warning that I'm no longer going God's way. It's a difficult lesson we all have to learn. Unfortunately, some are very late in learning it. But it's difficult for us all! Thanks for emphasizing this point!

That's exactly how it is for me. When I senses myself increasing in any negative emotional energy it's that waving red flag, a red light blinking. Either we pay attention and shut ourselves down, or find ourselves running off into fleshiness.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's exactly how it is for me. When I senses myself increasing in any negative emotional energy it's that waving red flag, a red light blinking. Either we pay attention and shut ourselves down, or find ourselves running off into fleshiness.

Much love!

You're a true man of God! The mature know they're not perfect, but they're teachable!

 

[marks]

You're a true man of God! The mature know they're not perfect, but they're teachable!

I'm very far from perfect, but I know the fleshiness is never all that far away, creeps in routinely, and we must be very vigilent, and to my discredit, very willful. If my will were stronger I'd make better choices more often.

God's given me some effective training in at least recognizing what is the flesh, if not always stopping it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

teachable!

And that's why I'm pre-mil, I'm willing to accept the plain sayings of the Bible within their contexts, in keeping with language use in the balance of the Scriptures, in such a way as to show harmony between them all.

It's only in the literal understandings of these kingdom passages that we find such harmony and acceptance of their sayings.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm very far from perfect, but I know the fleshiness is never all that far away, creeps in routinely, and we must be very vigilent, and to my discredit, very willful. If my will were stronger I'd make better choices more often.

God's given me some effective training in at least recognizing what is the flesh, if not always stopping it.

Much love!

You're preaching to the choir!

 

[Randy Kluth]

And that's why I'm pre-mil, I'm willing to accept the plain sayings of the Bible within their contexts, in keeping with language use in the balance of the Scriptures, in such a way as to show harmony between them all.

It's only in the literal understandings of these kingdom passages that we find such harmony and acceptance of their sayings.

Much love!

You have a point. I was raised in an Amil denomination, which has many centuries of support for it. Growing up that way I never gave two thoughts as to the completion of Abraham's promises in a Messianic Age.

But once I began to look at it as a means of completing the circle with Israel, and as doing what the Church age has so far failed to do, then it made perfect sense for me to believe in a Messianic Age. And it really seems that John had this in mind when he was told to write about the Millennium.

There must come a time when sinful Man is put under the feet of the Lord Jesus. And if so, then this must still be part of the mortal age of Man. I don't claim to understand it all, and I certainly don't have all of the detail. But I don't see how we can get around the promises God made to Abraham, which are not possibly being fulfilled in the present age, since Satan continues to corrupt, inhibit, and destroy as best he can.

Not only so, but fitting a symbolic "Millennium" into the last 2000 years makes no sense at all to me. Perhaps people found a way to believe that in that distant past. But after 2000 years, I don't think so! And to think Satan has already been bound? Absurd!

 

[marks]

And to think Satan has already been bound?

Once again, those plain things . . .

1 Peter 5:8 KJV
8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

He's not already bound.

Much love!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Once again, those plain things . . .

1 Peter 5:8 KJV
8) Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

He's not already bound.

Much love!

Amillennialists have had those kinds of understandings and Scriptures throughout the NT period. And yet they found the only way to explain the Millennium was by seeing Satan as having somehow been bound at the cross, for our Salvation.

It's an odd thing. Satan can't be free to roam and bound at the same time, and yet that's what they've said. He was bound in some sense for our Salvation, and yet still able to attack the Church. Which is it?

Anybody who has lived godly in Christ Jesus knows what it's like to be opposed by satanic figures. Satan certainly is not bound. We have power from Christ and from God's word. But neither are we immune from satanic attacks just as Jesus was.

I believe it's important to have an expectation of satanic opposition so that we are not caught unprepared. I also find it important to believe that a backslidden nation like Israel can be restored due to the importance of our embracing the doctrine of grace.

An age is coming, I believe, in which grace will finally be revealed in full to not just Israel but all the nations. The binding of Satan will allow this to be fully revealed.

 

[marks]

Amillennialists have had those kinds of understandings and Scriptures throughout the NT period. And yet they found the only way to explain the Millennium was by seeing Satan as having somehow been bound at the cross, for our Salvation.

It's an odd thing. Satan can't be free to roam and bound at the same time, and yet that's what they've said. He was bound in some sense for our Salvation, and yet still able to attack the Church. Which is it?

Again, the Bible spells this out.

Revelation 20:3 KJV
3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7-10 KJV
7) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Satan will be bound for 1000 years to prevent him from deceiving the nations. When he is loosed, he will go and deceive the nations to gather them to battle to the camp of the saints, and the beloved city.

If you don't think the kingdom happens this way, then you have to come up with meanings for all of these things, leading us to these little conundrums.

Anybody who has lived godly in Christ Jesus knows what it's like to be opposed by satanic figures. Satan certainly is not bound. We have power from Christ and from God's word. But neither are we immune from satanic attacks just as Jesus was.

I believe it's important to have an expectation of satanic opposition so that we are not caught unprepared. I also find it important to believe that a backslidden nation like Israel can be restored due to the importance of our embracing the doctrine of grace.

I agree. None of the Bible's teachings exist in a vacuum, all are linked together, and error in one place breeds error in another. We are warned to be vigilant specifically because Satan roams about, not bound, like a roaring lion seeking whom he might eat.

An age is coming, I believe, in which grace will finally be revealed in full to not just Israel but all the nations. The binding of Satan will allow this to be fully revealed.

The blessed kingdom, in which God gives to Israel the benefits of their covenant with Him! In amazing splendor!

Much love!