Why is Christianity so focused on Sin?

[BreadOfLife]

Explain what you are calling salvation. I said before what I think you meant. Tell me what you mean.

Stranger

Salvation is when we make it to Heaven.
There can be no other definition.

When we are born again at Baptism, we have saving grace.
However, we may stumble or completely fall away and LOSE it ([SIZE=10pt]Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19[/SIZE]).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Redemption is universal, salvation is not. Stranger has collapsed the two different terms (although related) into one, and refuses to budge, so it seems.

EXACTLY.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree with the cooperating with God but how does one loose grace. If grace was removed because of our faults it is no longer grace. If we have to work at it than its no longer a gift its ends up something we must pay for and if we must pay for it its no longer grace, Grace is given because we are all screw ups and we need it, if we where perfect as He is perfect we would not need grace nor Him

Yes, grace is a gift. HOWEVER, if we refuse it, we lose it.
Grave sin that goes unrepented for and unconfessed cuts us off from God's grace. This is referred to as deadly or "mortal" sin (1 John 5:16-17).

 

[Stranger]

And, unless you want to continue to spout the false Calvinist doctrine of Limited Atonement - He paid for EVERYONE.
Jesus paid the price for sin, thereby purchasing our freedom . This is REDEMPTION.

We must either choose to cooperate with that grace or reject it.

Pay attention. Jesus paid the price for all sin. That didn't purchase everyone's salvation. It provided for our salvation if indeed we come to Christ. You must be in Christ to be redeemed.

Just because Christ paid for all sin does not mean all are redeemed. Those who reject are not redeemed.

You are confusing two different operations. One by Christ, which is the payment for sin. The other by us, which is placing faith in Christ and being redeemed.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Salvation is when we make it to Heaven.
There can be no other definition.

When we are born again at Baptism, we have saving grace.
However, we may stumble or completely fall away and LOSE it ([SIZE=10pt]Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19[/SIZE]).

A purely Romanist view of salvation. Very general. Very easy.

(Psalm 37:39-40) " But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble. And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him."

What salvation is being spoken of here?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

EXACTLY.

Exactly wrong. Redemption is not universal. Neither is salvation. The payment for sin is.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Pay attention. Jesus paid the price for all sin. That didn't purchase everyone's salvation. It provided for our salvation if indeed we come to Christ. You must be in Christ to be redeemed.

Just because Christ paid for all sin does not mean all are redeemed. Those who reject are not redeemed.

You are confusing two different operations. One by Christ, which is the payment for sin. The other by us, which is placing faith in Christ and being redeemed.

Stranger

You are confusing Redemption with Salvation.
They are NOT the same thing.

Jesus redeemed every person who ever lived and every person who ever WILL live. He paid the price for ALL of the sins of the world - not just SOME of them. This is redemption.
Whether I choose to follow Christ or not - I have been paid for.

EVERY single person who ever lived and who ever WILL live has had or will have the opportunity to be saved - but NOT all will choose these gift.

What YOU are proposing is and even more perverted version of the Calvinist lie that is Limited Atonement.

 

[BreadOfLife]

A purely Romanist view of salvation. Very general. Very easy.

(Psalm 37:39-40) " But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble. And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him."

What salvation is being spoken of here?

Stranger

Psalm 37:39-40 is a wonderful passage about those who REMAIN faithful and endure to the end.
The sad fact is that many, if not most will not . . .


Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[Stranger]

You are confusing Redemption with Salvation.
They are NOT the same thing.

Jesus redeemed every person who ever lived and every person who ever WILL live. He paid the price for ALL of the sins of the world - not just SOME of them. This is redemption.
Whether I choose to follow Christ or not - I have been paid for.

EVERY single person who ever lived and who ever WILL live has had or will have the opportunity to be saved - but NOT all will choose these gift.

What YOU are proposing is and even more perverted version of the Calvinist lie that is Limited Atonement.

No, Jesus paid the price for sin for everyone. That is not redemption. Redemption takes place only when the person comes to Christ and is then 'in Christ'. To redeem means you come into possession of that which you purchase. If you lay down 10 dollars for 10 pounds of potatoes, but you only receive 6 pounds of potatoes, then you only redeem 6 pounds of them. You just paid the price for 10, but only received 6.

Sorry, you don't understand limited atonement.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, Jesus paid the price for sin for everyone. That is not redemption. Redemption takes place only when the person comes to Christ and is then 'in Christ'. To redeem means you come into possession of that which you purchase. If you lay down 10 dollars for 10 pounds of potatoes, but you only receive 6 pounds of potatoes, then you only redeem 6 pounds of them. You just paid the price for 10, but only received 6.

Sorry, you don't understand limited atonement.

Stranger

Wrong.

You keep talking as though Jesus only paid for PART of the bill. He paid for ALL of it.
If I choose not to follow Him doesn't take away from the fact that He PAID for me.

 

[Stranger]

Psalm 37:39-40 is a wonderful passage about those who REMAIN faithful and endure to the end.
The sad fact is that many, if not most will not . . .


Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God take away somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

Ah yes, your google list. I was wondering how long it would take before you presented it. I've already answered this list more than once. All it is now is a smoke screen used by the Romanists.

And as usual you don't answer my question. What salvation is being spoken of in (Psalm 37:39-40), since you say salvation is always about going to heaven? (post #61)

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Wrong.

You keep talking as though Jesus only paid for PART of the bill. He paid for ALL of it.
If I choose not to follow Him doesn't take away from the fact that He PAID for me.

Pay attention. I said Jesus paid it all. That doesn't mean all are redeemed.

Jesus paid for it all, but He doesn't get all. Just like I said with the potatoes. You pay for 10 pounds but are only given 6 pounds. That means only 6 pounds are redeemed. Sort of 1st grade stuff.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ah yes, your google list. I was wondering how long it would take before you presented it. I've already answered this list more than once. All it is now is a smoke screen used by the Romanists.

And as usual you don't answer my question. What salvation is being spoken of in Psalm 37:39-40? Since you say salvation is always about going to heaven. (post #61)

Stranger

Hey - if the truth of Scripture bothers you - just say so.
And - NO, you never refuted these verses.

As for your question - it's about going to Heaven.
Read S*L*O*W*L*Y . . .

Psalm 37:39-40
39 The salvation of the righteous is from the Lord,
their refuge in a time of distress.
40 The Lord helps and delivers them;
He will deliver them from the wicked and WILL SAVE THEM
because they take refuge in Him.

Nobody is truly saved until they are in HEAVEN.

I suppose now you're going to tell us that there are TWO Salvations just like you tried to pass off your rubbish about TWO Redemptions . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Pay attention. I said Jesus paid it all. That doesn't mean all are redeemed.

Jesus paid for it all, but He doesn't get all. Just like I said with the potatoes. You pay for 10 pounds but are only given 6 pounds. That means only 6 pounds are redeemed. Sort of 1st grade stuff.

Stranger

You have absolutely NO idea what "redeem" means.

 

[Stranger]

Hey - if the truth of Scripture bothers you - just say so.
And - NO, you never refuted these verses.

As for your question - it's about going to Heaven.
Read S*L*O*W*L*Y . . .

Psalm 37:39-40
39 The salvation of the righteous is from the Lord,
their refuge in a time of distress.
40 The Lord helps and delivers them;
He will deliver them from the wicked and WILL SAVE THEM
because they take refuge in Him.

Nobody is truly saved until they are in HEAVEN.

I suppose now you're going to tell us that there are TWO Salvations just like you tried to pass off your rubbish about TWO Redemptions . . .

The truth of Scripture doesn't bother me. Your twisting of it does.

Sorry, but I have answered these Scriptures several times.

I read it real slowly, slowly. And guess what? You still didn't answer the question. What salvation are these verses in (Psalm 37:39-40) speaking of?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

You have absolutely NO idea what "redeem" means.

Yes I do. As I said in post #69, to redeem means to come into possession of that which you purchase.

Stranger

 

[epostle1]

The Bible maintains that there is a sense in which Christ died for all men. John 4:42 describes Christ as "the Savior of the world," and 1 John 2:2 states that Christ "is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1 Timothy 4:10 describes God as "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." These passages, as well as the official teaching of the Church [20], require the Catholic to affirm that Christ died to atone for all men.

Aquinas stated, "Christ's passion was not only a sufficient but a superabundant atonement for the sins of the human race; according to 1 John 2:2, 'He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.'" [21]
This is not to say there is no sense in which limitation may be ascribed to the atonement. While the grace it provided is sufficient to pay for the sins of all men, this grace is not made efficacious (put into effect) in the case of everyone. One may say that although the sufficiency of the atonement is not limited, its efficiency is limited. This is something everyone who believes in hell must acknowledge because, if the atonement was made efficacious for everyone, then no one would end up in hell.

The difference between the atonement's sufficiency and its efficiency accounts for Paul's statement that God is "the Savior of all men, especially those who believe." [22] God is the Savior of all men because he arranged a sacrifice sufficient for all men. He is the Savior of those who believe in a special and superior sense because these have the sacrifice made efficacious for them. According to Aquinas, "[Christ] is the propitiation for our sins, efficaciously for some, but sufficiently for all, because the price of his blood is sufficient for the salvation of all; but it has its effect only in the elect." [23]

A Catholic also may say that, in going to the cross, Christ intended to make salvation possible for all men, but he did not intend to make salvation actual for all men--otherwise we would have to say that Christ went to the cross intending that all men would end up in heaven. This is clearly not the case.

[24] A Catholic therefore may say that the atonement is limited in efficacy, if not in sufficiency, and that God intended it to be this way. [25] While a Catholic could not say that the atonement was limited in that it was made only for the elect, he could say that the atonement was limited in that God only intended it to be efficacious for the elect (although he intended it to be sufficient for all). [26]

from Tiptoe Through the TULIP

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes I do. As I said in post #69, to redeem means to come into possession of that which you purchase.

Stranger

WRONG.
Let's see what Webster's Collegiate Dictionary has to say:

[SIZE=18.5pt]Definition of [/SIZE][SIZE=19.5pt]redeem[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]transitive verb[/SIZE]

1a :[SIZE=13.5pt] to buy back :[/SIZE] repurchase
[SIZE=13.5pt]b[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] :[/SIZE] to get or win back
[SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]2:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to free from what [/SIZE]distresses or harms: such as

[SIZE=13.5pt]a [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to free from captivity by payment of [/SIZE]ransom
[SIZE=13.5pt]b[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] :[/SIZE] to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental
[SIZE=13.5pt]c [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to release from blame or debt :[/SIZE] clear
[SIZE=13.5pt]d[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] :[/SIZE] to free from the consequences of sin
[SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]3:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to change for the better :[/SIZE] reform
[SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]4. Repar, Restore[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]5a [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to free from a [/SIZE]lien by payment of an amount secured thereby

[SIZE=13.5pt]b [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt](1)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to remove the obligation of by payment [/SIZE]the U.S. Treasury redeems savings bonds on demand (2) : to exchange for something of value redeem trading stamps
[SIZE=13.5pt]c[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] :[/SIZE] to make good : fulfill
[SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]6a [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to atone for :[/SIZE] expiate redeem an error
[SIZE=13.5pt]b[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt](1)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] :[/SIZE] to offset the bad effect of (2) : to make worthwhile : retrieve


[SIZE=13.5pt]The overwhelming number of definitions listed refer to PURCHASING and RELEASING.
Jesus PAID the price for sin and offered RELEASE from it for everybody . . .[/SIZE]

 

[BreadOfLife]

The truth of Scripture doesn't bother me. Your twisting of it does.
Sorry, but I have answered these Scriptures several times.
I read it real slowly, slowly. And guess what? You still didn't answer the question. What salvation are these verses in (Psalm 37:39-40) speaking of?

Stranger

I already answered that.
I'll educate you again:

Psalm 37:39-40
39 The salvation of the righteous is from the Lord,
their refuge in a time of distress.
40 The Lord helps and delivers them;
He will deliver them from the wicked and WILL SAVE THEM
because they take refuge in Him.


Pay CLOSE attention to the words in large BOLD CAPS.
This illustrates the ONLY salvation that the Bible speaks of: HEAVEN.

 

[Stranger]

WRONG.
Let's see what Webster's Collegiate Dictionary has to say:

[SIZE=18.5pt]Definition of redeem[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]transitive verb[/SIZE]

1a :[SIZE=13.5pt] to buy back : repurchase[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]b[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] :[/SIZE] to get or win back
[SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]2:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to free from what distresses or harms: such as[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]a [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to free from captivity by payment of ransom[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]b[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] :[/SIZE] to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental
[SIZE=13.5pt]c [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to release from blame or debt : clear[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]d[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] :[/SIZE] to free from the consequences of sin
[SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]3:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to change for the better : reform[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]4. Repar, Restore[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]5a [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to free from a lien by payment of an amount secured thereby[/SIZE]

[SIZE=13.5pt]b [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt](1)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to remove the obligation of by payment the U.S. Treasury redeems savings bonds on demand (2)[/SIZE] : to exchange for something of value redeem trading stamps
[SIZE=13.5pt]c[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] :[/SIZE] to make good : fulfill
[SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]6a [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt]:[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] to atone for : expiate redeem an error[/SIZE]
[SIZE=13.5pt]b[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] [/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt](1)[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt] :[/SIZE] to offset the bad effect of (2) : to make worthwhile : retrieve


[SIZE=13.5pt]The overwhelming number of definitions listed refer to PURCHASING and RELEASING.
Jesus PAID the price for sin and offered RELEASE from it for everybody . . .[/SIZE]

I never said Jesus didn't pay the full price. He did. He paid the price for sin. He not only paid the price, He is the price. At it is only in Him that redemption occurs. Unless one is in Him, then there is no redemption. Unless one comes to Christ in faith, there is no redemption.

Stranger