Why is homosexuality a sin?

[aspen]

Correction: Solomon didn't say that without a God we should do that. He said that was what God intended for us! To enjoy what we are given.

Ecc 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

You have serious issues. God did NOT create homosexuals. Homosexuals have corroded the original plan of God. The same as it wasn't the original plan of God for us to sleep around. God made us, now it's up to us how we are going to use what he gave us. There is no such thing as the 'gay' gene.

Excuse me it was Paul Corinthians 15:32 - If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

I have serious issues? Because I wrote something that you don't like?
I was writing from the perspective of a homosexual - with your lack of empathy skills, I should have realized the difficulty you would have with perspective taking.

 

[Groundzero]

Excuse me it was Paul Corinthians 15:32 - If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

I have serious issues? Because I wrote something that you don't like?
I was writing from the perspective of a homosexual - with your lack of empathy skills, I should have realized the difficulty you would have with perspective taking.

No. I assume from the way you are writing that you are sympathetic to homosexuals. And then you claim to be a Christian.
And no, I don't have perspective issues. I have had homosexuals much closer to my doorstep then most of you would ever have had.

 

[aspen]

Really? I was raised in SF and went to the University of Oregon.

I am empathetic towards homosexuals.

I am certainly a Christian.

We are known by our love.....even towards homosexuals.

 

[Groundzero]

Really? I was raised in SF and went to the University of Oregon.

I am empathetic towards homosexuals.

I am certainly a Christian.

We are known by our love.....even towards homosexuals.

Right. You definitely make that known with your quip about Bush having a silver foot in his mouth. I love people who are homosexual, but I hate what they do because that is what my God hates, and nothing anybody says will change it. Love is not about accepting anything and everything.

 

[Lively Stone]

Yeah, you might want to work on that empathy thing.....

What I am saying is - why should a homosexual accept a God who created him as an abomination and then despises him for it?

God has never created an abomination. Just the suggestion that He does reveals a real disconnect in one's mind about who God really is. Satan is all about abomination, though. He influences people away from righteousness and from knowing God. Can't you see that?

Shouldn't he or she take advantage of the time they have here on Earth before they are sent to Hell? Even Solomon said with out a God we should 'eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die'

Wow. Shouldn't we who know Jesus spend our time witnessing to the love of Jesus Christ to these people so they will turn their lives over to God and not go to hell? Where your loving concern or empathy?

There are far too many so-called believers today who do not know what true love is and the result is that they end up loving people right into hell. These poor, lost people will not thank them for it in the end, but those who are pulled from the fire will be forever grateful to those Christians who really know about the love of Jesus that saves us from sin's degradation.

 

[Foreigner]

Yeah, you might want to work on that empathy thing.....

What I am saying is - why should a homosexual accept a God who created him as an abomination and then despises him for it? Shouldn't he or she take advantage of the time they have here on Earth before they are sent to Hell? Even Solomon said with out a God we should 'eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die'

-- Aspen, sometimes you say things that show you truly are lost on the subject.
God did not create (the homosexual) "as an abomination and then despise him for it."
That is dishonest propoganda....unless you really believe that. Then it is a matter of you not understanding who God really is.


Homosexuality is the result or original sin and a fallen world.
And God does not "despise him." He loves him.
He loves him enough to die on the cross to pay for his sins.
Enough to want him to know that if he doesn't turn away from homosexual behavior, he will suffer eternal damnation.

Instead of wanting to ensure homosexuals have that message of love and urgency - that there IS a future for them, one of love and peace - you want to give a blanket criticism to anyone who won't sanction their lifestyle. A lifestyle that God Himself - GOD HIMSELF - calls an abonination.

You claim that any efforts to share the Gospel with them - something God calls us to do for EVERYONE who doesn't know him - is based on criticism, hostility and even hate. How wrong you are. And how unfair.

You are more concerned with homosexuals "eating, drinking, and being merry" than you are ensuring that they know eternal peace and happiness with the God that created them, avoiding eternal damnation.

You are doing them no favors.

the sin of homosexuality is over emphasized. Re-marrying after a divorce is also a sin, but it is hardly mentioned in our society or the church, because it can happen to anyone. The church has traditionally condemned sins that are minority sins like homosexuality and witchcraft to a greater degree than common sins.

-- An honest man would acknowledge that the increased "emphasis" on the dangers of homosexuality have mirrored the increased push by homosexuals to receive favored status, the rise of AIDS within the United States due to homosexual behavior, and the increased criticism by those - some, like you within the Christian community itself - who criticize Christians for doing exactly what God calls them to do.

As far as divorce being a sin and "hardly mentioned in our society".....is this a surprise? Society is "the world."
Society says there is no such thing as a sin - except the sin of intolerance for anything "the world" has deemed to be wonderful and acceptable.
Why would you expect anything different?

As far as the Church and divorce, a couple of points:
First, the Bible says that divorce is acceptable in the event of infidelity.....which just so happens to be one of the very top reason for divorce today
Second, if someone divorces - gets on with their lives - one or both of the spouses falls in love again and remarries....and then comes to Christ, what do you suggest they do? Divorce their new spouse and remarry their old one to make it right?
It will come down to seeking God's mercy and forgiveness.

You once started a thread on this board stating that any person in church and especially on the pulpit that is overweight is guilty of gluttony, a sin, and that makes them both a sinner and a hypocrite. That is the degree to which you will go to defend the homosexual lifestyle against anyone who - like God - opposes it. Amazing.

Your passion to let homosexuals live a life in sin, even if that means Christians are to keep silent, keep out of their way, and vote to sanction it (because if they don't they are - in your own words - are violating civil rights) exceeds your passion (and God's call to us) to help them understand that God loves them, will deliver them, and give them an eternity is heaven if they but turn to Him.

You want to ensure a lifetime of the ability to submit themselves to a lifestyle and practice that God calls an abomination, rather than help them to understand that they are loved, God died for them, and there is an eternity of happiness waiting for them if they accept him.

Your priorities are - at best - out of whack, and at worst hindering God's message to them when they need it the most.

Your stance could literally be costing souls.

 

[aspen]

Right. You definitely make that known with your quip about Bush having a silver foot in his mouth. I love people who are homosexual, but I hate what they do because that is what my God hates, and nothing anybody says will change it. Love is not about accepting anything and everything.

Allowing people to make their own decisions and live their own lives is hardly acceptance. God allows them to live their own lives, why should we act any differently? Love is meeting people where they're at - Christ taught us this.

God has never created an abomination. Just the suggestion that He does reveals a real disconnect in one's mind about who God really is. Satan is all about abomination, though. He influences people away from righteousness and from knowing God. Can't you see that?




Wow. Shouldn't we who know Jesus spend our time witnessing to the love of Jesus Christ to these people so they will turn their lives over to God and not go to hell? Where your loving concern or empathy?

Of course we should be witnessing to people - all people. But we should walk with them when we witness, not hand them a tract or tell them to repent and then when they do not meet our standards of repentance, push them aside. Arguing doctrine is not love. Serving others, despite their current behavior is love. Finally, God has given people the right to choose Hell. We are still called to love them. We do not send people to Hell.

There are far too many so-called believers today who do not know what true love is and the result is that they end up loving people right into hell. These poor, lost people will not thank them for it in the end, but those who are pulled from the fire will be forever grateful to those Christians who really know about the love of Jesus that saves us from sin's degradation.

I am a Christian. We cannot love people into Hell - God is in charge and He is placing people in the best opportunity to receive Him. You are confusing tolerance with acceptance.

 

[aspen]

-- Aspen, sometimes you say things that show you truly are lost on the subject.
God did not create (the homosexual) "as an abomination and then despise him for it."
That is dishonest propoganda....unless you really believe that. Then it is a matter of you not understanding who God really is.

I was speaking from the homosexuals point of view.

Homosexuality is the result or original sin and a fallen world.
And God does not "despise him." He loves him.
He loves him enough to die on the cross to pay for his sins.
Enough to want him to know that if he doesn't turn away from homosexual behavior, he will suffer eternal damnation.

I agree.

Instead of wanting to ensure homosexuals have that message of love and urgency - that there IS a future for them, one of love and peace - you want to give a blanket criticism to anyone who won't sanction their lifestyle. A lifestyle that God Himself - GOD HIMSELF - calls an abonination.

I am called to love the homosexual who accepts God's correction and those who do not. Doctrine is a great starting point, but we must spend our lives proving that doctrine is meaningful and life changing through our actions.

You claim that any efforts to share the Gospel with them - something God calls us to do for EVERYONE who doesn't know him - is based on criticism, hostility and even hate. How wrong you are. And how unfair.

No, Apparently I have miscommunicated. I have no problem sharing the hard line doctrinal teaching on homosexuality to any homosexual who has not heard it. I have never met a homosexual who has not heard it. Now, I believe it is my job to show them what God's plan is for complete love and how they can be apart of it through repentance and an embrace of the fullness of life that God has in store for them.

You are more concerned with homosexuals "eating, drinking, and being merry" than you are ensuring that they know eternal peace and happiness with the God that created them, avoiding eternal damnation.

There are some homosexuals who reject God. I do not plan to abandon them - I plan to continue to witness through my actions, but I also understand their perspective. If this truly is their heaven - I am not going to stand in the way of their hedonism - neither is God.

You are doing them no favors.

It is not my job to hand out favors.

-- An honest man would acknowledge that the increased "emphasis" on the dangers of homosexuality have mirrored the increased push by homosexuals to receive favored status, the rise of AIDS within the United States due to homosexual behavior, and the increased criticism by those - some, like you within the Christian community itself - who criticize Christians for doing exactly what God calls them to do.

Just because we disagree does not make me a liar. AIDS is spread through all forms of sexual contact. Homosexuals started organizing for political rights in the late seventies - as I remember, the religious community responded to their marches and organizations. As I have said continuously, homosexuality is a sin / homosexuals know that Christians believe this / our message presented solely as doctrine has become ineffective and offensive (due to repetition, anger, and disdain for homosexual activism, by the Christian witness) / we need to move on from only preaching doctrine and start the hard part of walking with the homosexual and witnessing our lives.

As far as divorce being a sin and "hardly mentioned in our society".....is this a surprise? Society is "the world."
Society says there is no such thing as a sin - except the sin of intolerance for anything "the world" has deemed to be wonderful and acceptable.
Why would you expect anything different?

Nope. So why are Christians tolerant of it? We are angry about homosexual rights being allowed in society - I think it is hypocritical that we overlook divorce in society.

As far as the Church and divorce, a couple of points:
First, the Bible says that divorce is acceptable in the event of infidelity.....which just so happens to be one of the very top reason for divorce today
Second, if someone divorces - gets on with their lives - one or both of the spouses falls in love again and remarries....and then comes to Christ, what do you suggest they do? Divorce their new spouse and remarry their old one to make it right?
It will come down to seeking God's mercy and forgiveness.

I suggest we allow homosexuals in society the same freedoms that we allow people who fall into the painful and complicated trial of divorce.

You once started a thread on this board stating that any person in church and especially on the pulpit that is overweight is guilty of gluttony, a sin, and that makes them both a sinner and a hypocrite. That is the degree to which you will go to defend the homosexual lifestyle against anyone who - like God - opposes it. Amazing.

That is the length I will go to show that homosexuality is a sin that is just as bad as any other sin.

Your passion to let homosexuals live a life in sin, even if that means Christians are to keep silent, keep out of their way, and vote to sanction it (because if they don't they are - in your own words - are violating civil rights) exceeds your passion (and God's call to us) to help them understand that God loves them, will deliver them, and give them an eternity is heaven if they but turn to Him.

No at all. I simply believe that the hardest part of witnessing is sharing your justified and sanctifying life with sinners, rather than presenting them scripture they have heard a thousand times. I think it is sad that you seem to believe the only hope for homosexuals is a constant barrage of the same old scriptures and peer pressure through rejection. Love, not rejection is the way to speak to homosexuals and all sinners. In my eyes, your method of witnessing is akin to repeating the word 'hello!' over and over again, while expecting to engage in a long term, intimate relationship with someone. The worst part is that you seem to be angry that others may want to move beyond a simple greeting - as if, the relationship would end if we stopped saying 'Hello!'.

You want to ensure a lifetime of the ability to submit themselves to a lifestyle and practice that God calls an abomination, rather than help them to understand that they are loved, God died for them, and there is an eternity of happiness waiting for them if they accept him.

Nope. I just want to walk with them, instead of condemning their actions every time we meet together (just so they know for sure that I hate their behavior), or presenting them the same old verses they have heard a thousand times, or reminding them that Hell awaits them at the end of their lives. This kind of behavior on the part of the Christian stunts intimacy and communicates a lack of respect for the homosexual who is trying to make the right decisions in their lives (from their POV),

Your priorities are - at best - out of whack, and at worst hindering God's message to them when they need it the most.

I am sorry we disagree.

Your stance could literally be costing souls.

God is in charge of the destiny of souls - I trust His sovereignty.

 

[Lively Stone]

Of course we should be witnessing to people - all people. But we should walk with them when we witness, not hand them a tract or tell them to repent and then when they do not meet our standards of repentance, push them aside. Arguing doctrine is not love. Serving others, despite their current behavior is love. Finally, God has given people the right to choose Hell. We are still called to love them. We do not send people to Hell.

Who is doing that? Seems to me you are arguing the doctrine of sin and its consequences and how harmful it is to everyone.

Preaching the truth in love is what we are called to do. Loving sinners is not tolerating their sin, but showing them a better way through Christ. Jesus didn't tolerate sin, but He loved the sinner. You can do no less, and by coddling the sinner, you are ushering him right to the gates of hellfire...(in love, mind you!)

I am a Christian. We cannot love people into Hell - God is in charge and He is placing people in the best opportunity to receive Him. You are confusing tolerance with acceptance.

Yes, many nominal Christians are doing just that today, by their message of carnality lived and spoken. I believe you have suggested tolerance here (you know---eat drink and be merry, etc), rather than accepting all people as loved by God and in desperate need of a Saviour.

 

[aspen]

Who is doing that? Seems to me you are arguing the doctrine of sin and its consequences and how harmful it is to everyone.

I am not totally sure what you are trying to say here. I witness through discussion (perhaps a theological discussion, to see where people are at) and then I witness through service and as an example of the result of my strength and hope. I witness to my strengths, believing that God is using me to compliment the wooing of the Holy Spirit.

Preaching the truth in love is what we are called to do. Loving sinners is not tolerating their sin, but showing them a better way through Christ. Jesus didn't tolerate sin, but He loved the sinner. You can do no less, and by coddling the sinner, you are ushering him right to the gates of hellfire...(in love, mind you!)

I disagree. You can tolerate sin and love a person and witness to them. Have you ever had a long term relationship with a sinner? If you have, you have tolerated their sinful condition. Tolerating is not aiding them in their sin, it is allowing them to live their lives without riding them like a pious moralist. Also, I think you might be confusing our role as witnesses - we are called to loved our neighbors as ourselves and support the work of the Holy Spirit. It is solely the work of the Holy Spirit working in the heart of a sinner that leads him to Christ - we have nothing to do with the actual conversion. Finally, do you think Christ spent the dinners He ate with sinners telling them to repent? He tolerated the fact that they were sinners and used His own life to model righteousness. Becoming a Christian is not supposed to be a downer or a slog - it is freedom from the slavery of sin. Pious preaching and overidentification with sin and repentance is not the focus of the Christian life - it is just the beginning.

Yes, many nominal Christians are doing just that today, by their message of carnality lived and spoken.

I would be careful suggesting that I am a nominal Christian simply for disagreeing with you - you do not know me or how I interact with others.

I believe you have suggested tolerance here (you know---eat drink and be merry, etc), rather than accepting all people as loved by God and in desperate need of a Saviour.

As I stated above, 'eat,drink, and be merry' is the proper mindset of the damned. I was speaking from the perspective of the sinner who rejects Christ. No amount of scriptural argument is going to stop someone from living hedonistically. They have to be wooed by the Holy Spirit and patiently loved by the Christian

 

[Lively Stone]

I agree with you, Aspen!

 

[aspen]

I agree with you, Aspen!

Wow - really? That is awesome! I feel like I finally was about to communicate clearly enough to get my point across - thanks for your post!

 

[Lively Stone]

Wow - really? That is awesome! I feel like I finally was about to communicate clearly enough to get my point across - thanks for your post!

Perhaps what was happening, which is often the case in Christian forums, is that we were talking right past one another.

 

[aspen]

Perhaps what was happening, which is often the case in Christian forums, is that we were talking right past one another.

Yeah, it really happens a lot here.

 

[Lively Stone]

Yeah, it really happens a lot here.

LOL! Where?? I mean Christian forums in general, everywhere!

 

[Foreigner]

Foreigner, on 20 January 2012 - 12:21 PM, said: -- Aspen, sometimes you say things that show you truly are lost on the subject. God did not create (the homosexual) "as an abomination and then despise him for it." That is dishonest propoganda....unless you really believe that. Then it is a matter of you not understanding who God really is.

I was speaking from the homosexuals point of view.

-- You did not indicate that but rather presented it as your opinion. So, how do we change their point of view without actually speaking with them to give them the truth that God loves them and died for them? If all they see is that you don't tell them about Christ but just "live by example," and that example shows you advocating something God opposes, how can they possibly get the correct message? Answer: They won't


Homosexuality is the result or original sin and a fallen world. And God does not "despise him." He loves him. He loves him enough to die on the cross to pay for his sins. Enough to want him to know that if he doesn't turn away from homosexual behavior, he will suffer eternal damnation.

I agree.

-- Yet you don't support letting the homosexual know this. (And no, just 'living by example' dosn't tell them that.) What good is it to agree if nothing is done?


Instead of wanting to ensure homosexuals have that message of love and urgency - that there IS a future for them, one of love and peace - you want to give a blanket criticism to anyone who won't sanction their lifestyle. A lifestyle that God Himself - GOD HIMSELF - calls an abonination.

I am called to love the homosexual who accepts God's correction and those who do not. Doctrine is a great starting point, but we must spend our lives proving that doctrine is meaningful and life changing through our actions.

-- That doctrine does not include ensuring that the government sactions their sinful life, thus making it LESS likely they will realize that God does not support their lifestyle. The doctrine calls us to love them. And the best way to love them is to help ensure they don't spend eternity in damnation, not making sure their short time on earth living their sinful lifestyle is as pleasurable and fulfilling to them as possible.


You are more concerned with homosexuals "eating, drinking, and being merry" than you are ensuring that they know eternal peace and happiness with the God that created them, avoiding eternal damnation.

There are some homosexuals who reject God. I do not plan to abandon them - I plan to continue to witness through my actions, but I also understand their perspective.

-- You actions indicate you sanction what God considers an abominatin. Therefore, your 'witnessing through actions' is likely to increase the likelihood they will end up in hell, not reduce it.

If this truly is their heaven - I am not going to stand in the way of their hedonism - neither is God.

-- You are correct when you say God isn't going to stand in the way of their hedonism. He offers free will. However, God calls Christians to share with them the danger of chosing to devote their lives to the pleasures that will damn them for all eternity. You however, by your own admission, feel that isn't the case. You are not only "not going to stand in the way" but actively work to ensure they can indulge in it even further.


You are doing them no favors.

It is not my job to hand out favors.

-- But your job IS to do everything you can to help them avoid eternal damnation. But you are correct, advocating for something that God opposes in order for them to be happy on earth, but spend an eternity in hell truly isn't handing out any favors.


You once started a thread on this board stating that any person in church and especially on the pulpit that is overweight is guilty of gluttony, a sin, and that makes them both a sinner and a hypocrite. That is the degree to which you will go to defend the homosexual lifestyle against anyone who - like God - opposes it. Amazing.

That is the length I will go to show that homosexuality is a sin that is just as bad as any other sin.

-- By launching blanket unsubstantiated accusations of sin.... And you somehow think........this is a good thing


Your passion to let homosexuals live a life in sin, even if that means Christians are to keep silent, keep out of their way, and vote to sanction it (because if they don't they are - in your own words - are violating civil rights) exceeds your passion (and God's call to us) to help them understand that God loves them, will deliver them, and give them an eternity is heaven if they but turn to Him.

No at all. I simply believe that the hardest part of witnessing is sharing your justified and sanctifying life with sinners, rather than presenting them scripture they have heard a thousand times.

-- That unjustly assumes that that is the only way homosexuals are witnessed to. Again, that shows you really aren't privy to how most Christians witness. That is unfortunate.

I think it is sad that you seem to believe the only hope for homosexuals is a constant barrage of the same old scriptures and peer pressure through rejection.

-- Again, it is patently clear that you really have no insight as to how most homosexuals are witnessed to.

Love, not rejection is the way to speak to homosexuals and all sinners. In my eyes, your method of witnessing is akin to repeating the word 'hello!' over and over again, while expecting to engage in a long term, intimate relationship with someone. The worst part is that you seem to be angry that others may want to move beyond a simple greeting - as if, the relationship would end if we stopped saying 'Hello!'.

-- This is where the word "obtuse" truly does apply. I have shared with your REPEATEDLY on this board how Christians, myself included, witness to homosexuals. It has been posted - in detail - in a number of threads you have participated in. You have even commented on it. I have also let you know - again REPEATEDLY - that the majority of conversations with homosexuals were begun by the homosexuals themselves. Remedial Witnessing 101: - Stress to them that all men and women, including that person are loved by God. - Let them know that all men and women, including that person are sinners. - Share that God sees all sin the same, be it lying, stealing, lusting, infidelity, hatred, etc. etc. etc. - Let them know that you fit into that group of sinners and you were going to hell until you turned to Christ. When they ask what sins I have committed, I am very honest and open and they are often surprised. - Tell them that Jesus loved all of us enough to be tortured and die for our sins and all we have to do is turn Him, ask His forgiveness, and seek His guidance and we can know happiness and eternal salvation. The scripture shared confirmed the sin of all man, God's love of all man, Christ's sacrifice for all men, and the future for those who turn to Christ, as well as for those who don't. If they THEN ask why homosexuality is a sin, THEN you share the scripture specifically about homosexuality. But normally the scriptures about ALL MEN being lost without Christ, combined with this willingness to die for them is enough. Some will admit Christ into their heart then and there. You walk them through the process, then give them your name, number and a Bible. Give them the names of people at specific churches (not just yours) that they can call if they have further questions. You then invite them to church and offer to give them a ride. You then follow up with a call in a day or two. This have led to relationships that have lasted for years. Those that are receptive but have no interest at that time or are outright hostile, you offer them your name and number and let them know that if they change their mind you are always available to talk. I would appreciate it if you would choose to remember this this time. It may come in handy the next time you want to make yet another incorrect accusation about how I witness.


You want to ensure a lifetime of the ability to submit themselves to a lifestyle and practice that God calls an abomination, rather than help them to understand that they are loved, God died for them, and there is an eternity of happiness waiting for them if they accept him.

Nope. I just want to walk with them, instead of condemning their actions every time we meet together (just so they know for sure that I hate their behavior), or presenting them the same old verses they have heard a thousand times, or reminding them that Hell awaits them at the end of their lives. This kind of behavior on the part of the Christian stunts intimacy and communicates a lack of respect for the homosexual who is trying to make the right decisions in their lives (from their POV),

-- That 'neutral' walk leads them right off a cliff. I am fascinated that you don't see that. But you also leave out the part that by advocating for something God opposes, you give the strong impression that God sanctions it. If the person doesn't make that assumption, they will ask how you can advocate for something that God says is wrong. You will then point out that you are CHOOSING to support something that God opposes. And you do not see how much giving the impression that will give can do to your witness or the false impression of acceptance that will leave for them.


Your stance could literally be costing souls.

God is in charge of the destiny of souls - I trust His sovereignty.

-- If you truly trusted and respected His sovereignty, you certainly would not advocate for something you know He opposes.

.

 

[aspen]

-- You did not indicate that but rather presented it as your opinion. So, how do we change their point of view without actually speaking with them to give them the truth that God loves them and died for them? If all they see is that you don't tell them about Christ but just "live by example," and that example shows you advocating something God opposes, how can they possibly get the correct message? Answer: They won't.

Witnessing is a team effort; I am not the only Christian in the lives of my homosexual friends. Also, I am not arrogant enough to believe I am the only Christian called to prepare the soil / sow the seed / water it / nurture the sprout / care for the plant / harvest the fruit in the lives of every homosexual I meet. I witness to my strength.

I have been married to the same women for 20 years in March, how is this 'life example' advocating something God opposes / homosexuality? The correct message is the Love of God for sinners, which is exactly what I am witnessing. Once again, if you know of a homosexual that doesn't know that Christians believe God opposes homosexuality, send them to me, I have never met one.

-- Yet you don't support letting the homosexual know this. (And no, just 'living by example' dosn't tell them that.) What good is it to agree if nothing is done?

This seems to have become a broken record in our conversation; how can I help you move past it? I have never met a homosexual who does not already have this information, I do not believe believe beating a dead horse is an effective witness.

-- That doctrine does not include ensuring that the government sactions their sinful life, thus making it LESS likely they will realize that God does not support their lifestyle.The doctrine calls us to love them. And the best way to love them is to help ensure they don't spend eternity in damnation, not making sure their short time on earth living their sinful lifestyle is as pleasurable and fulfilling to them as possible.

Is America a country for just Christians or for all citizens? I would be angry if homosexuals decided to pass laws that prohibit the free expression of religion (free expression that did not lead to violence) and I can understand their anger at Christians who have decided to pass laws that prohibit their pursuit of happiness.

-- But your job IS to do everything you can to help them avoid eternal damnation.But you are correct, advocating for something that God opposes in order for them to be happy on earth, but spend an eternity in hell truly isn't handing out any favors.

Do you have the impression that I am advocating for homosexual behavior? I am not. I am advocating for the civil rights and God given rights of American citizens. Has God done everything possible to help sinners avoid damnation? He has sent His Son who died on the Cross for our sins; He offers His justification and sanctification for our redemption and salvation; and He has sent His representatives into the world to preach His love; however, it is still up to the sinner to respond to the wooing of the Holy Spirit. God does not force His will on anyone. I attempt to provide sinners what they have not heard or experienced from Christians - often, a long term relationship with an emphasis on love.

-- By launching blanket unsubstantiated accusations of sin....And you somehow think........this is a good thing

Yeah, it really did amaze me how stubborn you were during that whole conversation - you seemed to kick and scream against any admission that obesity could be caused by the sin of gluttony - it was glandular / genetic / not their fault!!!!! and that I was being cruel and judgmental and outrageous and 'obtuse' - lol. Of course, finding blame had nothing to do with bringing up obesity in the church - I did so to bring up a larger and obvious point. But, instead of just admitting that Christians ignore chronic gluttony and condemn homosexuality, you chose to fain ignorance of the larger point and crusade for the rights of obese Christians everywhere!. My analogy may not have been perfect in every case, but the greater point is simple to comprehend and true.

-- That unjustly assumes that that is the only way homosexuals are witnessed to. Again, that shows you really aren't privy to how most Christians witness. That is unfortunate.

Since when is it best to do what everyone is doing? Who are 'most Christians' anyway? Evangelical Christians? I am not evangelical. I am a Catholic Christian and if we are going to get into numbers, the Catholic Church is comprised of 1 billion members. The fact is, I have seen how evangelicals have been witnessing to homosexuals over the past 40 years and it is ineffective at best and emotionally devastating at worst. Instead of witnessing Christ's love, it communicates rejection and condemnation to the vast majority of homosexuals. Christians need to wake up and make some changes in their witnessing behavior. Witnessing love and acceptance of the sinner, is the most effective way to communicate compassion and ease open the minds of the sinner, while the Holy Spirit is wooing their hearts. Starting with condemning doctrine and hellfire scripture reinforces the defenses of sinners and makes it less likely for them to be open to the Holy Spirit and Christ's plan for their salvation. Now, if that is what you like to do, by all means keep it up and continue to make it harder for those who love sinners more than loving to be RIGHT.

-- Again, it is patently clear that you really have no insight as to how most homosexuals are witnessed to.

And it is clear to me that it is very important for you to believe this idea.

-- This is where the word "obtuse" truly does apply. I have shared with your REPEATEDLY on this board how Christians, myself included, witness to homosexuals.It has been posted - in detail - in a number of threads you have participated in. You have even commented on it.I have also let you know - again REPEATEDLY - that the majority of conversations with homosexuals were begun by the homosexuals themselves.Remedial Witnessing 101:- Stress to them that all men and women, including that person are loved by God.- Let them know that all men and women, including that person are sinners.- Share that God sees all sin the same, be it lying, stealing, lusting, infidelity, hatred, etc. etc. etc.- Let them know that you fit into that group of sinners and you were going to hell until you turned to Christ.When they ask what sins I have committed, I am very honest and open and they are often surprised. - Tell them that Jesus loved all of us enough to be tortured and die for our sins and all we have to do is turn Him, ask His forgiveness, and seek His guidance and we can know happiness and eternal salvation.The scripture shared confirmed the sin of all man, God's love of all man, Christ's sacrifice for all men, and the future for those who turn to Christ, as well as for those who don't.If they THEN ask why homosexuality is a sin, THEN you share the scripture specifically about homosexuality. But normally the scriptures about ALL MEN being lost without Christ, combined with this willingness to die for them is enough.Some will admit Christ into their heart then and there. You walk them through the process, then give them your name, number and a Bible. Give them the names of people at specific churches (not just yours) that they can call if they have further questions.You then invite them to church and offer to give them a ride.You then follow up with a call in a day or two.This have led to relationships that have lasted for years. Those that are receptive but have no interest at that time or are outright hostile, you offer them your name and number and let them know that if they change their mind you are always available to talk. I would appreciate it if you would choose to remember this this time. It may come in handy the next time you want to make yet another incorrect accusation about how I witness.

Do you notice what you are communicating in your post? You are speaking to me as if you are 'the long-suffering (yet frustrated at my willful ignorance) expert' on witnessing properly to the reprobate homosexual......'Lord, why can't I pound it into his thick skull so he will fall in line with the program?! Obviously there is a right way and a wrong way to witness!! Hmm...perhaps if I use more sarcasm, pomposity, and overall snarkiness??'

The words you use are not that far from my own, however, if the time-frame, tone and 'expertise' in your post are anything close to your witness of Christ to the lost, it is small wonder we who love homosexuals have our hands full repairing the damage.

-- That 'neutral' walk leads them right off a cliff. I am fascinated that you don't see that.But you also leave out the part that by advocating for something God opposes, you give the strong impression that God sanctions it.If the person doesn't make that assumption, they will ask how you can advocate for something that God says is wrong. You will then point out that you are CHOOSING to support something that God opposes.And you do not see how much giving the impression that will give can do to your witness or the false impression of acceptance that will leave for them.

Nothing neutral about witnessing God's love. Does doctrine save, Foreigner? Are Christians called to witness Christ through legislation, Foreigner? I must have missed those verses. Once again, here is a promise from me; if you find a homosexual that has not heard that some Christians believe that God opposes homosexuality, send them to me and I will be the first to tell them. I've never met one, myself.

-- If you truly trusted and respected His sovereignty, you certainly would not advocate for something you know He opposes.

Not one word of that sentence is truthful.

 

[lawrance]

I would have to say that my old mate foerigner is right and put God in his true position.
Today we see all around us that every thing has been or is being turned upside down with modern man being so full of him self and this points to the Bible's predictions of the end times.