WHY IS THE CHURCH GOING OUT BACKWARD?

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Truther

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Hebrews 13:7 doesn't make that claim. It says "obey your leaders". Which "leaders" is Paul talking about? The reformers made void this verse with their revolt. So you reply with a derailed.
So you are forced to re-write early church history to make it compatible with your man made system, and ignore the writings of Christians of the first 3 centuries.
You have no concept of development of doctrine.
C. S. Lewis, the famous Anglican writer, once wrote:

The very possibility of progress demands that there should be an unchanging element . . . the positive historical statements made by Christianity have the power . . . of receiving, without intrinsic change, the increasing complexity of meaning which increasing knowledge puts into them.
The Catholic Church, in agreement with Lewis, defines doctrinal development as a growth of depth and clarity in the understanding of the truths of divine revelation. It is important to understand that the substantial or essential truths at the core of each doctrine remain unchanged. Only the subjective grasp of men increases. This increase is the result of the prayerful reflection of the Church, theological study and research (often occasioned by heretical challenges), practical experience, and the collective wisdom of the Church’s bishops and popes, especially when joined in Ecumenical Councils. (which you despise)

Like many Christian doctrines, the idea of doctrinal development is based on much implicit or indirect scriptural evidence. The best indications are perhaps Mt. 5:17, 13:31-2, Jn. 14:26, 16:13, 1 Cor. 2:9-16, Gal. 4:4, Eph. 1:10, 4:12-15. Furthermore, doctrine clearly develops within Scripture (“progressive revelation”). Examples: doctrines of the afterlife, the Trinity, the Messiah (eventually revealed as God the Son), the Holy Spirit (Divine Person in the New Testament), the equality of Jews and Gentiles, bodily resurrection, sacrifice of lambs evolving into the sacrifice of Christ, etc. Not a single doctrine emerges in the Bible complete with no further need of development.

In general, whenever Scripture refers to the increasing knowledge and maturity of Christians and the Church, an idea very similar to doctrinal development is present. Holy Scripture, then, is in no way hostile to development. It is only Protestant presuppositions – not always so “biblical” – which preclude development for fear of “excess.”

The Canon of Scripture itself is an example of developing doctrine. The New Testament never informs us which books comprise itself, and its Canon (final list of books) took about 360 years to reach its final form (at the Council of Carthage in 397). For instance, the books of Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were not widely accepted by the Church until 350 A.D.!

One simply needs to become familiar with Catholic biblical apologetic arguments. The idea of doctrinal development is a key, in any case, for understanding why the Catholic Church often appears on the surface as fundamentally different than the early Church. Thoughtful Protestants owe it to themselves and intellectual honesty to ponder this indispensable notion before lashing out at the allegedly “unbiblical excesses” of Catholicism.
Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?

Your Acts skipping parallels post # 347 which you ignored.
If anything must be described, then, as a corruption of primitive, pure Christianity, it is Protestantism, not Catholicism, since it introduced a radically new mode of Christian authority which was a 180-degree departure from the established Christian Tradition: that of subjective, private judgment, tied in with the unbiblical, unhistorical, and unreasonable notion of “Scripture Alone.” Protestantism is much more of a corruption, if that word is defined as an essential change of direction or philosophy of an institution or a set of beliefs (in this case theological and spiritual).

One might say that an automobile was “corrupt” if the owner decided that it ran better with no muffler, no shocks, no air or fuel filters, half of its spark plugs, watered-down gas, no rear brakes, one headlight, no heat, three quarts low on oil, with half of its radiator coolant, etc. Corruption can consist of “subtraction” as well as “addition.” Protestantism’s charges against Catholicism, closely scrutinized, only come back to incriminate itself.
A Biblical "leader" is not the will-nilly leader with a PHD you see today, but a person that strictly adheres to the original Apostles doctrine and experience found in Acts.

They, and only they can be trusted if they are doctrinally perfect.

They must point all disciples of Jesus back to the Bible and protect the Lord's Sheep from wolves(commentary).

This is their mission statement.
 

Truther

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Like I have ALWAYS admonished you, my ignorant friend – when in doubt, ALWAYS go back to the original Greek.

The NT wasn’t written in English, Einstein – it was written in 1st century Koine Greek. The word that Paul uses for “Pastor” (shepherd) is the EXACT SAME work Jesus uses in John 10 as He describes Himself as the Good “Shepherd”.

YOU keep dancing around this issue because you LOST this argument pages ago . . .
....as the Catholic denies Jesus as the ONE Shepherd he declares himself as per John 10.

Greek redefinitions will never debunk Jesus' words, so don't try it.
 

Timtofly

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But your "body of Christ" on earth has no head, no prime minister on earth subject to the King, so you do scriptural contortions of Daniel 2 in a feeble attempt to claim division and theological chaos is God's will.
Show me a verse that claims this rock is an actual kingdom led by actual humans.
 

BreadOfLife

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....as the Catholic denies Jesus as the ONE Shepherd he declares himself as per John 10.

Greek redefinitions will never debunk Jesus' words, so don't try it.
It's not a Greek "Re-definition". It's the PRIMARY definition of the word, "Shepherd".

Your failure to exegete John 21:15-19 is as good as chiseling your igorance into granite.

Pathetic denial and nothing more . . .
 
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Truther

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It's not a Greek "Re-definition". It's the PRIMARY definition of the word, "Shepherd".

Your failure to exegete John 21:15-19 is as good as chiseling your igorance into granite.

Pathetic denial and nothing more . . .
No, if was not a redefinition, the Bible would have said this....


16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and THOUSANDS OF shepherdS...

And this...

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, SHEPHERDS and teachers


But, to your dismay, it does not.

You only wish you could steal Jesus' sheep.
 

BreadOfLife

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No, if was not a redefinition, the Bible would have said this....

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and THOUSANDS OF shepherdS...

And this...

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, SHEPHERDS and teachers

But, to your dismay, it does not.

You only wish you could steal Jesus' sheep.
And yet, in the depths of your ignorance, you can't exegete John 21:15-19 OR Eph. 4:11.

YOU
still think the NT was written in English. What complete and utter clulessness . . .
 

Truther

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And yet, in the depths of your ignorance, you can't exegete John 21:15-19 OR Eph. 4:11.

YOU
still think the NT was written in English. What complete and utter clulessness . . .
The N.T. has been officially translated in English per the KJV.

This is how God preserved His pure word for a last days witness.

It needs not further redefining by RCC or Protestant ideology.

It is complete, so get used to it and stop tinkering.
 

BreadOfLife

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The N.T. has been officially translated in English per the KJV.
This is how God preserved His pure word for a last days witness.
It needs not further redefining by RCC or Protestant ideology.
It is complete, so get used to it and stop tinkering.
And the fact that you actually believe that the KJV - or any other translation of Scripture is "infallible" goes to show just ho deep your ignorance is.

The KJV includes a verse of Scripture that was NEVER there to begin with - but taken from the first century document, The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles). Jesus never uttered the concluding doxology, "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

This was a FOOTNOTE written by a CATHOLIC scribe who was copying the Scriptures and happened to make a note on the side of a page referencing The Didache. It was included in the KJV.

There - nw that we've debunked the myth of KJV "infallibility" - you STILL haven't been able to exegete John 21:15-19 - OR - Eph. 4:11 because your abject ignorance and refusal to learn from the original languages of Scripture.

Game.
SET.
MATCH.
 

Truther

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And the fact that you actually believe that the KJV - or any other translation of Scripture is "infallible" goes to show just ho deep your ignorance is.

The KJV includes a verse of Scripture that was NEVER there to begin with - but taken from the first century document, The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles). Jesus never uttered the concluding doxology, "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

This was a FOOTNOTE written by a CATHOLIC scribe who was copying the Scriptures and happened to make a note on the side of a page referencing The Didache. It was included in the KJV.

There - nw that we've debunked the myth of KJV "infallibility" - you STILL haven't been able to exegete John 21:15-19 - OR - Eph. 4:11 because your abject ignorance and refusal to learn from the original languages of Scripture.

Game.
SET.
MATCH.
Nothing more silly than a bloviating Catholic....LOL

Fact is, your mass distortion and attack on the KJV is the MO of the RCC.

They also teach their protestant daughters to use that method, this way, none of them need follow the Bible, but rather, commentary and opinion pieces.

Both of you go into Greek redefinition colleges designed to debunk the Bible every which way from Sunday.

The end result are hundreds of denominations, all touting the "same Bible", when in fact, everyone has their own "unique truth".

This is a dirty game, with eternal judgement at the end.

Obey Acts 2:38...verbatim, Roman Catholic.
 

Illuminator

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Show me a verse that claims this rock is an actual kingdom led by actual humans.
One verse? I already gave you Jeremiah 33:17, 2 Sam. 7:16; Psalm 89:3-4; 1 Chron.17:12,14 – God promises to establish the Davidic kingdom forever on earth. (post#326) And you ran from it. Jesus didn't change Simon bar Jonah's name to an unheard of name "ROCK" because it was cool. All the verses indicating ROCK (Peter) as spokesman for all the Apostles, AND leader of the Church give a combined total of over 70 verses, so I don't need to rely on one verse in Matthew 16. Cephas is Greek, translated from the Aramaic Kepha, the language Jesus spoke. Why would Paul use an Aramaic title 6 times to Greek speaking communities??? Why not Greek??? Because everyone knew who ROCK was.

I already gave you Isaiah 22:22, that foreshadows the structure of the Davidic kingdom into the NT, and now you want to bait me with just one verse indicating the primacy of ROCK?? Go ahead. Make my day. You will have a lot of running, denying and ignoring to do. That's what you must do to defend a false paradigm.
 
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marksman

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If it say Shepherd, it refers to Jesus.

If it says pastor(elder), it refers to ministry.
Where is the reference to Jesus in Ephesians 4:11 apart from being the giver of the gifts? I don't see why he would need to give the gift of shepherding to himself.
 

Illuminator

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Where is the reference to Jesus in Ephesians 4:11 apart from being the giver of the gifts? I don't see why he would need to give the gift of shepherding to himself.
That is not the point in Ephesians 4.
(2 Tim. 3:16–17).

This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency, which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church. Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ” (Eph. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.

TEXT without CONTEXT is a PRETEXT.
The BIBLE without the CHURCH is just an EXCUSE!
 

BreadOfLife

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Nothing more silly than a bloviating Catholic....LOL
Fact is, your mass distortion and attack on the KJV is the MO of the RCC.
They also teach their protestant daughters to use that method, this way, none of them need follow the Bible, but rather, commentary and opinion pieces.
Both of you go into Greek redefinition colleges designed to debunk the Bible every which way from Sunday.
The end result are hundreds of denominations, all touting the "same Bible", when in fact, everyone has their own "unique truth".
This is a dirty game, with eternal judgement at the end.
Obey Acts 2:38...verbatim, Roman Catholic.
Again - in your moronic ignorance, you actually believe that calling me "Roman Catholic" is an insult. It's actually very precise because that is the Liturgical rite I belong to.

As for the KJV - that little bit of information about the doxology at the end of Lord's Prayer (Matt. 6:13) is not a made up "Catholic" story. It is right out of the pages of the book, "Where We Got The Bible" by Rev. Henry Graham.
YOU have put ALL of your faith in the TRANSLATORS of the KJV instead of God. - hence, ALL of your perverted doctrines.

Let's see how that works out for ya on Judgement Day . . .