WHY IS THE CHURCH GOING OUT BACKWARD?

[Truther]

This is a very interesting conversation... From what I can read... there seems to be an issue of semantics... (stressing too much emphasis on one word=Shepherd)... If you notice the picture on my avatar... you will see that my favorite analogy is that of the sheep and Shepherd.

I come also from a 5-fold ministry... of which the TEACHER was the pastor... but would not accept the role of Shepherd... He was gifted as a teacher... and he even wrote books... The problem was that after people would congregate to listen to him speak... that was it... The sheep would go back home and resume their lives with no sense of belonging or community... It was no different than going to the library to check out a book.

The church that does NOT have a Shepherd is NOT HEALTHY... and the wolves are free to roam and devour the flock... at will.

Sheep need to be nurtured... feed... cared for. Jesus calls Pastors to be those shepherds and they are ACCOUNTABLE for their flock. You are taking the word Shepherd and placing it on the level of using the word GOD. This is not a correct observation of the role of a pastor.

No, Jesus is the only one Shepherd as he said in John 10.

He speaks to His sheep and they only hear Him and not the voice of strangers.

Added shepherds steal sheep.

Instead of folks in need saying "pastor, pastor", they must learn to say "Jesus, Jesus".

 

[Truther]

Correct.
A shepherd doesn't necessarily OWN the sheep he tends. MANY shepherds word FOR the one who owns them.

Your argument is as stupid as saying that a waiter can't work in a restaurant unless he owns it.
Complete nonsense . . .

Who's arguing?

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[Chris1964]

Only those called and I can guarantee there are few of them around.

Joh 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

Ans so on it goes blind following the blind into a ditch.

Not sure what youre saying. Sounds like you agree with me, but maybe not. Yes, not many should be called to be a pastor but those that are are shepherds of the local flock.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Who's arguing?

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Uh-huh.
Now explain John 21:15-19.

I'll wait right here . . .

 

[Truther]

Uh-huh.
Now explain John 21:15-19.

I'll wait right here . . .

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Yep.

Peter fed the one(lone)shepherd's sheep.

And all this time you thought Jesus reneged on John 10....

 

[BreadOfLife]

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Just as I thought.
I asked you to explain John 21:15-19 - and you failed yet again.

Good job . . .

 

[Truther]

Just as I thought.
I asked you to explain John 21:15-19 - and you failed yet again.

Good job . . .

Well, you simply are in the sheep thief business.

Of course you fellas will poach Jesus' sheep, because that gives you power over them.

They follow you instead of Jesus, thinking you are Jesus' representative, just as you dupe them into thinking Jesus' mother is his representative.

Just remember, on earth you may pull it off, but NEVER in eternity.

Jesus called sheep thieves, thieves and robbers.

Take heed......

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

My request to you is simple....Please say "one Shepherd"....thanks.

 

[marksman]

No one said he was Jesus. But a pastor is a shepherd. Or does your pastor not feed, lead or protect your local flock?

But he is not the leader of the church. The NTC was always cared for by a plurality of Elders.

 

[marksman]

I have around me a 5 fold ministry, but none of them are shepherds of Christ's sheep.

I am involved in the 5 fold ministry(Teacher/Evangelist), but see no Biblical reference that a pastor is above my calling.

Fact is, I am an elder, which is the Biblical definition of a pastor.

Therefore I will not try to replace the great Shepherd's voice with mine.

I, as all elders, am mistake prone, which disqualifies us as a shepherd and makes our voice the voice of a stranger.

God's will is to speak directly to the believer, not through a pastor to a believer.

Jesus said "my sheep hear my voice".

The pastor teaches, "Jesus sheep hears their voice".

Which is subjecting Jesus' voice to another man.

I teach souls to learn to hear their Shepherds voice directly, then you will get perfect direction from the unseen hand of God.

An Elder is not a biblical definition of a pastor. A shepherd (pastor in Latin) is one of the five ministry gifts of Ephesians 4:11. No mention of Elder in that list.

 

[Truther]

An Elder is not a biblical definition of a pastor. A shepherd (pastor in Latin) is one of the five ministry gifts of Ephesians 4:11. No mention of Elder in that list.

Which definition you adhere to debunks Jesus in John 10.....


16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


...say "one".

Now agree with the verse.

Now realize someone is duping you with a redefinition, and notice the KJV NEVER calls N.T. men "shepherd".

 

[marksman]

Which definition you adhere to debunks Jesus in John 10.....


16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


...say "one".

Now agree with the verse.

Now realize someone is duping you with a redefinition, and notice the KJV NEVER calls N.T. men "shepherd".

I am sorry but what you have said makes no sense to me.

 

[Truther]

I am sorry but what you have said makes no sense to me.

ONE Shepherd makes no sense to you?(John 10)

Why?

 

[marksman]

ONE Shepherd makes no sense to you?(John 10)

Why?

I am not trying to be contentious but in Ephesians 4:11 we are told that the risen Christ has given us the ministries of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher and Shepherd. That being the case, I expect to see the ministry of shepherds alive and well in the church if it is doing its job properly.

 

[marksman]

Which definition you adhere to debunks Jesus in John 10.....


16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


...say "one".

Now agree with the verse.

Now realize someone is duping you with a redefinition, and notice the KJV NEVER calls N.T. men "shepherd".

One.

 

[marksman]

Not sure what youre saying. Sounds like you agree with me, but maybe not. Yes, not many should be called to be a pastor but those that are are shepherds of the local flock.

Actually it says not many should be called teachers.

 

[marksman]

Teachers, per the 5 fold ministry, are shepherds too?

No indication that they are.

 

[marksman]

Interesting. I did some looking up of this '5 fold ministry'. Seems to be a group thinking that the 5 gifts of Eph 4 should be in use today. Correct me if i'm wrong. So do you think that apostles is a current ministry in the structure of the church? And i found this interesting as well;

https://www.fivefoldministrychurches.com/scriptural-church-government

Without getting into a catholic/christian debate, i see the 5 fold ministry thinks catholicism is part of christianity? This shows a great lack of discernment on the part of this movement.

What movement is that?

 

[marksman]

No scripture hands Jesus' shepherdship or fold to any man.

The one Shepherd is perfect and pure, unlike the thieves and robbers that want His flock for themselves(as Jesus said in John 10).

The RCC and protestants are stealing Jesus' flocks, as the flocks hear the wrong voices weekly.

These thieves have muzzled Jesus' voice, insisting they are the voice of Jesus, and the masses are not allowed to hear His voice for themselves.

These thieves have propped themselves up as the mediator between the mediator between God and man.

If that is the case, why did he appoint the ministry of shepherd to the church?

 

[marksman]

Feed MY(Jesus') sheep....not feed OUR sheep.

LOL

Why do they need to feed his sheep if he is the only shepherd?

 

[marksman]

The church that does NOT have a Shepherd is NOT HEALTHY... and the wolves are free to roam and devour the flock... at will.

From my observations, most churches have a "pastor" but very few have the other four ministries and as a result, are not healthy for the simple reason that if Christ gave five ministries it was for a reason which we have chosen to ignore. So the churches that are not healthy are those without the fivefold ministry. In other words, just a pastor.