Why "LAW" =/= "OLD COVENANT"

[amadeus]

I'm not a gnostic.
But YOU are always posting scripture,,,so you must know.
If witnessing, should you know? So many questions to answer.

But, to answer,,,,faith is more important.

First some background on what I see:

What I believe is that a real Christian [one who follows or strives to follow] Christ is usually, [always?], a mixture of belief and knowledge with regard to God and the things of God. The problem is that for many or even all of these things we don't know the difference between those things we really know and those we only believe. As we grow toward God, assuming that we are, the balance should be moving in favor of knowledge over belief. This should be the process of little by little , step by step, precept upon precept. It goes along with the words of John the Baptist here:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

And the end result hopefully is understood here:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; ..." Heb 12:2
He is the finisher of our faith. When He finished working on and through that faith, then only knowledge would remain.

But now to your question:

So then what to say to someone who is listening to hear from God through me? What was it that Jesus did?

"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10

What we need to do is continuously eat the flesh [partake of scripture?] so that when the time is on us to speak, the Spirit in us will quicken [bring to Life] the what we have consumed so that it is the Living Word that comes out of our mouth in witness...

Of course, we should know that our witness to people is not found only in the words spoken with our mouths. Our whole appearance to everyone who is watching should be our witness to them even if we never have a one to one conversation. How do we get to the point where we will always being doing exactly what Jesus would be doing if He were in our place?

 

[Phoneman777]

"And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know." I Cor 8:2

Thanks. All the more reason to never stop seeking knowledge from God's Word. But, I think this verse is more a warning to not be puffed up by knowledge rather than a means to dash our hopes for ever obtaining it. For instance, we know that we shouldn't murder, period, so does that verse mean since we know full well murder is wrong, we really don't know for sure it's wrong? Or, does it mean we should be more concerned about application of such knowledge in the heart rather than being limited to just a mental assent to it?

 

[GodsGrace]

First some background on what I see:

What I believe is that a real Christian [one who follows or strives to follow] Christ is usually, [always?], a mixture of belief and knowledge with regard to God and the things of God. The problem is that for many or even all of these things we don't know the difference between those things we really know and those we only believe. As we grow toward God, assuming that we are, the balance should be moving in favor of knowledge over belief. This should be the process of little by little , step by step, precept upon precept. It goes along with the words of John the Baptist here:

"He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

And the end result hopefully is understood here:

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; ..." Heb 12:2
He is the finisher of our faith. When He finished working on and through that faith, then only knowledge would remain.

But now to your question:

So then what to say to someone who is listening to hear from God through me? What was it that Jesus did?

"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." John 14:10

What we need to do is continuously eat the flesh [partake of scripture?] so that when the time is on us to speak, the Spirit in us will quicken [bring to Life] the what we have consumed so that it is the Living Word that comes out of our mouth in witness...

Of course, we should know that our witness to people is not found only in the words spoken with our mouths. Our whole appearance to everyone who is watching should be our witness to them even if we never have a one to one conversation. How do we get to the point where we will always being doing exactly what Jesus would be doing if He were in our place?

Actually, I agree with all of the above. I've often said that we should witness always, and when absolutely necessary, use words. Perhaps our example might be even more important than our words.

But we need the words of Christianity too. This comes from reading the N.T. and studying some theology so that when questions are asked we can know the answer.

We won't ever be doing exactly as Jesus would do in each and every case all of the time. Sometimes we will fail...getting upset at a store clerk who is acting like an idiot and your patience runs out, getting upset with hubby for dumb reasons,,,not getting back to a friend looking for you because of being too busy --- we're human and these things will happen. What I DO find, is that they are held to a minimum and that we are AWARE of them...being aware of what we do is half the battle in my opinion.

I do believe our faith becomes easier to live as time goes by but it will never be perfected in our actions. We sin all the time, and sin is sin. Some will take this statement as unvictorious....I believe it's just reality.

As to eating the flesh of Jesus...if He meant what He taught, that's what He would have said. I believe that He DID mean, in some way, that we are to consume Him and fill ourselves up with Him. Perhaps the host DOES turn into His body and blood...I'm never sure about this but it definitely means more than mere bread and wine.

 

[bbyrd009]

Is that Biblical? If so, I'm interested to know the text.

ah sorry, i forget it doesn't occur to most ppl to highlight/search yet. i have a blind spot there, prolly due to my tribe, as soon as i learn something i assume everyone else already knew it lol.

 

[bbyrd009]

If witnessing, should you know? So many questions to answer.

fwiw i would contemplate diff questions, imo we mostly do not even know what questions to ask, our questions are loaded with assumptions and premises that tend to moot the Q, etc, usually via bad definitions i think, or at least assuming everyone shares definitions, something like that.

For instance what do you mean by "witnessing?" Not saying you have a bad def, maybe i do, but if it is diff than mine i will then give a reply based upon false premises, for instance i am occasionally called to witness, but this is just about as comfortable as being called to account imo, i suggest strenuously avoiding witnessing unless you are specifically called to witness, and as a witness what you "should" know becomes irrelevant as long as you are being as honest as you can, iow my answer is likely useless for your conception of "witness" right.

the point here being not to debate the def of "witness," but to explore other questions in an internal dialogue, maybe "should we be anxious to witness at all?" or "should we witness if we do not know?" which i guess you were already kind of asking huh

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe that He DID mean, in some way, that we are to consume Him and fill ourselves up with Him.

Word

Perhaps the host DOES turn into His body and blood...I'm never sure about this but it definitely means more than mere bread and wine.

does God care about oxen? Imo the point was not to practice vampirism and cannibalism in black masses and dead languages

 

[GodsGrace]

Word
does God care about oxen? Imo the point was not to practice vampirism and cannibalism in black masses and dead languages

The first Christians WERE called cannibals. Is this an indication of how John 6:54 was understood back then? It also seems as if the Early Church Fathers understood it in a literal sense.

I'm just not sure.
Will answer your other interesting post in a little while....must go.

 

[Taken]

Who preaches this nonsense?

Was wondering the same thing.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

Is this an indication of how John 6:54 was understood back then?

i guess by those who were not meant to understand, yes

It also seems as if the Early Church Fathers understood it in a literal sense.

I know the wolves will rush in as soon as I leave, not sparing the flock, so i expect that they did, yes. Once one is on tares intuitive questions like "well, how much of Jesus did the Apostles manage to consume then?" are not asked i guess

 

[amadeus]

But we need the words of Christianity too. This comes from reading the N.T. and studying some theology so that when questions are asked we can know the answer.

Nothing wrong with studying the scriptures so long as our intent and our Leadership is right. But when they are not then the words written by Solomon would apply:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

We won't ever be doing exactly as Jesus would do in each and every case all of the time. Sometimes we will fail...getting upset at a store clerk who is acting like an idiot and your patience runs out, getting upset with hubby for dumb reasons,,,not getting back to a friend looking for you because of being too busy --- we're human and these things will happen. What I DO find, is that they are held to a minimum and that we are AWARE of them...being aware of what we do is half the battle in my opinion.

To the extent we are able to be aware it is a good thing, but the other half [probably more than half] of the battle is more as I see it more important. That is the part that God does. God never loses battles. If we are always able to let Him lead, we will also never lose.

I do believe our faith becomes easier to live as time goes by but it will never be perfected in our actions. We sin all the time, and sin is sin. Some will take this statement as unvictorious....I believe it's just reality.

I always try hold back from saying that we all must always sin. This, as I see it, limits God. We cannot of ourselves stop sinning, but God in us can... if we let Him stop us. The problem, as I see it, is that we, when we do sin, if we do have the Holy Ghost in us, are quenching the Holy Spirit of God. We are limiting God:

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

"... According to your faith be it unto you." Matt 9:29

If we have faith that it cannot be done then surely it cannot... not even by God who requires our permission to working us. This is what our "free will" is, to do it ourselves or to surrender ourselves...without restrictions or limitations... to Him so He can work within us.

As to eating the flesh of Jesus...if He meant what He taught, that's what He would have said. I believe that He DID mean, in some way, that we are to consume Him and fill ourselves up with Him. Perhaps the host DOES turn into His body and blood...I'm never sure about this but it definitely means more than mere bread and wine.

I purposely did not open this can of worms here but... since you have... I have not eaten a wafer or crackers or bread made from grain along with grape juice or wine in what men describe as communion or the eucharist since I left the UPC more than 30 years ago.

For me the flesh is the raw dead word, like the dead flesh of a cow eaten as our main course. The dead meat when we consume it will be digested and passes through our red blood in the circulatory system and comes back to life as a part of our living body of flesh... the carnal body.

The dead flesh of the scriptures is Jesus without the quickening of the Holy Spirit. The scriptures say this:

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:14

When it says the Word [capitalized in most Bibles] it is speaking of Jesus, the Living Word. This is not Jesus hanging dead on the cross. On the cross Jesus for a while was like the slaughtered beef. It had not more blood and it had no more life. The dead carcass of Jesus resurrected, came back to Life.

All of us in the eyes of God were born dead from our mother's womb. Just consuming the dead flesh of the scriptures is meaningless to an sincere atheist who has no interest in obtaining real Life. When, however, you or I came to the Lord, seeing the Hope, we wanted to receive it... to become like Jesus with Life in us. We began to eat that dead flesh, but something else also began to happen. The Blood of Jesus, [the Holy Ghost as I see it], quickened [brought to Life] what we ate and we became a Living soul... something people had not been since Adam and Eve disobeyed God in Eden.

1Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

fwiw i would contemplate diff questions, imo we mostly do not even know what questions to ask, our questions are loaded with assumptions and premises that tend to moot the Q, etc, usually via bad definitions i think, or at least assuming everyone shares definitions, something like that.

For instance what do you mean by "witnessing?" Not saying you have a bad def, maybe i do, but if it is diff than mine i will then give a reply based upon false premises, for instance i am occasionally called to witness, but this is just about as comfortable as being called to account imo, i suggest strenuously avoiding witnessing unless you are specifically called to witness, and as a witness what you "should" know becomes irrelevant as long as you are being as honest as you can, iow my answer is likely useless for your conception of "witness" right.

the point here being not to debate the def of "witness," but to explore other questions in an internal dialogue, maybe "should we be anxious to witness at all?" or "should we witness if we do not know?" which i guess you were already kind of asking huh

Witnessing is not so easy in Italy. People here are mainly atheists and do not like to talk about God or church. They are especially disgusted with churches since they used to be part of the govt here and many still see them in that way instead of as messengers of God. I DO understand this. A couple of weeks ago, I was told by someone here that he doesn't care that I live in Italy because that doesn't make me understand this more...LOL.

Witnessing to me means telling someone about God. It could be someone who doesn't know God at all, or someone who does but has many questions. Listening is the key.
First, the opportunity has to come up. You don't just walk up to someone and ask if they know God like I see some do on YouTube. They'd take you for a maniac and stop listening immediately.

As far as being honest...right. I believe anyone could witness just by telling someone what God has done for them personally. Then if the person has really deep questions, they could always be referred to a church or pastor or priest someone may like.

If one is too anxious to witness, then maybe they shouldn't.

What do you believe witnessing means?

Oh. It also means that if we speak it we have to do it.

 

[Episkopos]

fwiw i would contemplate diff questions, imo we mostly do not even know what questions to ask, our questions are loaded with assumptions and premises that tend to moot the Q, etc, usually via bad definitions i think, or at least assuming everyone shares definitions, something like that.

For instance what do you mean by "witnessing?" Not saying you have a bad def, maybe i do, but if it is diff than mine i will then give a reply based upon false premises, for instance i am occasionally called to witness, but this is just about as comfortable as being called to account imo, i suggest strenuously avoiding witnessing unless you are specifically called to witness, and as a witness what you "should" know becomes irrelevant as long as you are being as honest as you can, iow my answer is likely useless for your conception of "witness" right.

the point here being not to debate the def of "witness," but to explore other questions in an internal dialogue, maybe "should we be anxious to witness at all?" or "should we witness if we do not know?" which i guess you were already kind of asking huh

If we look at the Hebrew word for witness..."ed" which is this in hebrew.. . עד ..we see the letters are the first 2 in the word for "eden" (as in the garden thereof)

The letters mean...to see...the door...ayin...dalet...

Jesus said "I am the door"....and if you see Me you have seen God. So then a witness is someone who has encountered Christ...who has been visited by Him. Such a person can now speak with understanding of who He is...without recourse to opinions and religious dogmatics. It is experiential.

 

[bbyrd009]

ha, that is awesome, sounds a lot like the Abarim guy

What do you believe witnessing means?

telling the truth of what has been witnessed under oath, something like that? But there are two kinds of witnesses in Scripture, that would only describe the true witness i guess

Oh. It also means that if we speak it we have to do it.

that would be a cousin concept to me at least also, ya.

 

[Phoneman777]

The first Christians WERE called cannibals. Is this an indication of how John 6:54 was understood back then? It also seems as if the Early Church Fathers understood it in a literal sense.

I'm just not sure.
Will answer your other interesting post in a little while....must go.

You're right. I remember hearing how one of the ways that pagan leaders poisoned the minds of their subjects against Christians was to falsely claim they were cannibals because of what they taught about "eating flesh" and "drinking blood".

 

[bbyrd009]

heck, Jesus did that, right? Fab lesson on literalism/determinism, imo.
Offer some wine and bread, and infer that it is your blood and body, and then sit back and watch humans reveal themselves lol

 

[Taken]

heck, Jesus did that, right? Fab lesson on literalism/determinism, imo.
Offer some wine and bread, and infer that it is your blood and body, and then sit back and watch humans reveal themselves lol

Blood IS the Life of the Body.
A man Eating the Body of Jesus and drinking the Blood of Jesus Is Spiritually Consuming the Word of God, which IS Jesus, IS Truth, Is everlasting Spiritual Life....Spiritual Understanding....and nothing to do with Carnal understanding of cannibalism.

God Bless,
Taken