Why "LAW" =/= "OLD COVENANT"

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ScottA

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Christians can't "establish" the Old Covenant because it has "vanished away" and has been replaced by the New Covenant. What Christians establish is the LAW - when by the indwelling power of Jesus they keep it.
If the old covenant and the law where both fulfilled by Christ (which they were), then if we are in Him, both were and are established regardless of their passing. If we are in Christ, and He in us, it is finished in us. To live is Christ.
 
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BobRyan

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If the old covenant and the law where both fulfilled by Christ (which they were), then if we are in Him, both were and are established regardless of their passing. If we are in Christ, and He in us, it is finished in us. To live is Christ.

Covenants are "Agreements". Christ does not "agree for us"

Under the Old Covenant in its first sense the agreement is "obey and live... or sin and die" -- Adam and Eve eventually chose sin-and-die. Thus all mankind was under the sin-and-die clause for "all sinned". All have a sinful nature.

Romans 3 says that to this very day - the Law still condemns all mankind as sinners under that Old Covenant standard. So that "all" need salvation.. all need a Savior.

=====================

The NEW Covenant in the Old Testament says that the new agreement is that we live as new creations with the Law of God written on the heart, with sins forgiven, and being in the family of God - taught by God. See Jeremiah 31:31-33.

Both of those covenants are fully in place today.

Under one - all mankind is lost
Under the other - those who choose it - are saved from their lost condition.

And as Christ reminds us in Matthew 7 - the "many" are on the road to eternal death. The few have chosen the New Covenant
 
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brakelite

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When Adam sinned, God still sought him out. (Gen. 3:9) Love was the motivating factor behind God’s promise (Genesis 3:15; Nahum 1:9) that the damage to the relationship caused by sin (Isa 59:2) would ultimately be undone ; that the power of Satan over our lives (John 8:34; Romans 6:16,20; 2 Peter 2:19) would be reversed and the power of death(Ezek. 18:4,20; Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23) would be overcome . How was God to accomplish all this while at the same time honouring justice, love and mercy? Through Jesus Christ.

The plan of redemtpion was not an afterthought, an emergency crisis plan developed after the fall of Adam. It was a “revelation of the mystery kept secret through times eternal” (Romans 16:25 RV) and the book of Revelation says…KJV Revelation 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

KJV 1 Peter 1
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you…



Forseeing the apostasy of Satan and his deception of Adam and Eve causing their fall, God had already prepared to meet the crisis. So great was His love for man that He covenanted to give “His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

This covenant was to be shown in types and symbols. They were a “lesson book” for the people of Israel (Gal. 3:24,25) and beginning from the very first sacrifice slain by God Himself to clothe Adam and Eve (Gen 3:21) the people of Israel were to learn (or should have learned) three vital lessons.
1. That sin results in death. It is inevitable, a natural progression, not an arbitrary judgement, but a sure result of rebellion against the only source of life.(Hebrews 10:1-4, Hebrews 9:22)
2. That the constant shedding of innocent blood was to teach man an abhorrence and hatred for sin and thus encourage the people to repent and turn away from it (Isa 1:11-20; Ezek. 18:21-23)
3. The symbols, sacrifices, and services of the sanctuary were a prophetic picture of a coming saviour; they were a depiction of the gospel of grace. (Gen. 22:8; Isa 53:6,7)

And how were these promises, this covenant, to be appropriated by the individual personally? By faith. (Hebrews 11:6) Was Israel at any time justifiied or saved by works of the law? No. Not at all. A big error they did make however was to attempt to do just that. Making a promise that was
…a. Impossible
…b. Not required of them…Nowhere in all of scripture doors God require anything of man other than faith, for it is faith in God promises only that brings about the obedience essential to our ultimate salvation
Exodus 19
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD….

Israel began to rely on their obedience and in their participation in these services and sacrifices etc rather than in the grace and mercy of God. This is very similar to the Catholics reliance on sacraments and ritual. (Rom. 10:3-8; Heb. 2:4). This is what the apostle Paul’s letter to the Galatians was all about.

What then, does all this mean for us living as we know in the “New Testament” times? What is this New Testament, or covenant? God’s love has not changed, nor His purpose in undoing all the works of Satan. (1 John 3:8) Therefore the new covenant must involve a new method by which He is to be able to fulfil His promises. Why? Because the old covenant was based on faulty promises. Were God’s promises faulty? Surely not, no, but rather the peoples' promises. (Heb. 8:6,7) The people had misjudged the part they were to play in the covenant. In Exod. 19:5,6 God promised (again) that He would make of them a mighty nation and a holy people, and their response was in the form of a faulty promise. They answered, “all that the Lord hath spoken we will do”. (Exod. 19:8) Unfortunately they had little idea of what they promised. God said that He would perform and establish His covenant; but rather than thanking Him and surrendering themselves in faith and acceptance to His promise, they said they would perform His promise. Just like Abram and Sarai when introducing Hagar into the transaction between God and Abram. In a sense they were introducing a mediator, much as has Rome done which is the spirit of Antichrist. This was not Abraham’s covenant to alter or ammend. This was God’s covenant, and like all covenants or testaments, once blood is spilt that testament can never be changed. History reveals of course the abject failure of Israel’s promise, failure to such an extent that Israel didn’t even recognise the very God of the covenant when He visited…we are all well aware of what they did to their own Messiah.

Therefore God had to make a new covenant with the house of Israel, based on better promises (Heb. 8:9,10) Today, God’s promises remain. He still would bring us power and victory over Satan and sin, but the method by which He would accomplish this has changed. The just however must still live by faith.

The old covenant, the old method by which God was to save His people and establish righteousness and obedience to His commandments was through the Mosaic law. Circumcision, sacrifices and burnt offerings, the annual sabbaths and feast days and the accompanying services of the sanctuary etc (Hebrews 9:1-7), comprised God’s method to teach His people, the nation of Israel, the ways of righteousness. They were His lesson book. Israel was to look upon these as the gospel of mercy and in faith look ahead to their Saviour, their Messiah. The new covenant is still by faith, not in a coming Saviour, but in a risen Saviour, Who writes His holy moral law in our hearts and minds. (2 Cor. 3:3) Thus, through Jesus, Satan is conquered, and his power over us is broken. Justice is satisfied, and God looks upon us as if we had never sinned. God gives us the new birth experience and the power to overcome sin. (1 John 3:9; 2 Peter 1:3,4). He dies in our place, and we, by faith die with Him. (Romans 6:1-7) And the result is what Adam and Eve had before the fall: a loving personal relationship with our Creator. Only today, by God’s grace and mercy, we are closer to Him than Adam and Eve could have ever wished for, for we have His Spirit abiding within. (Coll. 1:27)

Therefore God shows that His love is unconditional. He died while we were yet sinners. But His promises are not unconditional, nor have they ever been. Adam and Eve found that out.

Obedience is a prerequsite to our ultimate salvation. While Christ is “made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification and redemption (1 Cor 1:30) yet the only ones who are perfected or sanctified are those who fully accept His grace. True, He is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them” (Heb 7:25) yet those who would be saved must come unto God and “lay hold upon eternal life”. (1 Tim. 6:19) When we accept Him, we are justified; His righteousness is imputed to us and we stand before God just as if we had never sinned. But only those who follow on and experience Him as an indwelling power, and who continually appropriate His grace for victory over their sinful natures, are sanctified or perfected.
 
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brakelite

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Arthur W. Pink says:
Justification and sanctification are never separated; where God imputes the righteousness of Christ, He also imparts a principle of holiness, the latter being the fruit or consequence of the former; both being necessary before we can be admitted into heaven. Because the blood of Christ has met every claim of God upon and against His people, its virtues and purifying effects are applied to them by His Spirit…..for the blood of Christ is not merely, so to speak, the key unlocking the Holy of Holies to Him as our High Priest and Redeemer, it is not merely our ransom by which we are delivered out of bondage, and freed from the curse, and are brought nigh unto God; but it also separates us from death and sin. It is incorruptable, always cleansing and vivifying; through this blood we are separated from the evil world, and we may then overcome; by this blood we keep our garments white. (John 6:53; Rev 7:14)

C S Lewis in his book Screwtape Letters, described the demon’s modus operandi as to how he attacks God’s people with the following;

  1. “’running about with fire extinguishers whenever there is a flood. Get people to crowd to the side of the boat that is already nearly under. When people are lukewarm and apathetic, get them stirred up about the dangers of enthusiasm and emotion. If they are lazy, talk to them about the hypocrisy of the working community. If they are cruel, warn them against the evils of sentimentality…” In other words, let them hear loudly and repeatedly the warnings they don’t need.
    We Christians, and in particular we Adventists are not immune to this kind of tactic…we have literally dozens of authors, preachers, teachers and numerous others both inside and outside of ministry, railing against and warning about legalism and extremism in “keeping God’s commandments”…for example railing against “sinless perfectionism” when the reality is Jesus’s church that He is currently betrothed to is supposed to be like this…KJV Ephesians 5
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Thus obedience to God in all things is essential to our ultimate salvation. The method by which this is accomplished has been changed. Former adherence to rites and services and sacrifices has been done away with, nailed to the cross. Faith in a coming Saviour is fulfilled by His arrival, and we by faith now trust in His Spirit abiding in us to create in us the image of Christ that first resided in Adam before the fall. This work that makes us one with Christ and the Father is a work of a lifetime. It is only by our daily surrender and submission to the Holy Spirit that this is appropriated in our lives. Thus our obedience to God’s laws are not a means to justification, but the fruit of our sanctification.

And for those who would believe that the law of God written upon stone is completely done away with I would remind you that in every agreement I know of there are two copies, one given to each participant in the agreement. Our copy was written upon tables of stone, placed inside the ark, which in turn was placed inside the Holy of Holies where the very presence of God abode in the sanctuary. The holiest place on the planet. And just as the earthly sanctuary was a copy of the heavenly, we would expect also that God had an ark in heaven, and we could also presume that inside that ark was His copy of the covenant, after all, it is called the ark of the covenant, and that presumption would be correct for we read:
Revel. 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

This vision my friends is a new testament vision. The laws of God as contained in the tables of stone still abide in the throne room of God, the holiest place in heaven. They are still the laws of the kingdom.
 

GodsGrace

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When Adam sinned, God still sought him out. (Gen. 3:9) Love was the motivating factor behind God’s promise (Genesis 3:15; Nahum 1:9) that the damage to the relationship caused by sin (Isa 59:2) would ultimately be undone ; that the power of Satan over our lives (John 8:34; Romans 6:16,20; 2 Peter 2:19) would be reversed and the power of death(Ezek. 18:4,20; Romans 5:12; Romans 6:23) would be overcome . How was God to accomplish all this while at the same time honouring justice, love and mercy? Through Jesus Christ.

The plan of redemtpion was not an afterthought, an emergency crisis plan developed after the fall of Adam. It was a “revelation of the mystery kept secret through times eternal” (Romans 16:25 RV) and the book of Revelation says…KJV Revelation 13
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

KJV 1 Peter 1
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you…



Forseeing the apostasy of Satan and his deception of Adam and Eve causing their fall, God had already prepared to meet the crisis. So great was His love for man that He covenanted to give “His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

This covenant was to be shown in types and symbols. They were a “lesson book” for the people of Israel (Gal. 3:24,25) and beginning from the very first sacrifice slain by God Himself to clothe Adam and Eve (Gen 3:21) the people of Israel were to learn (or should have learned) three vital lessons.
1. That sin results in death. It is inevitable, a natural progression, not an arbitrary judgement, but a sure result of rebellion against the only source of life.(Hebrews 10:1-4, Hebrews 9:22)
2. That the constant shedding of innocent blood was to teach man an abhorrence and hatred for sin and thus encourage the people to repent and turn away from it (Isa 1:11-20; Ezek. 18:21-23)
3. The symbols, sacrifices, and services of the sanctuary were a prophetic picture of a coming saviour; they were a depiction of the gospel of grace. (Gen. 22:8; Isa 53:6,7)

And how were these promises, this covenant, to be appropriated by the individual personally? By faith. (Hebrews 11:6) Was Israel at any time justifiied or saved by works of the law? No. Not at all. A big error they did make however was to attempt to do just that. Making a promise that was
…a. Impossible
…b. Not required of them…Nowhere in all of scripture doors God require anything of man other than faith, for it is faith in God promises only that brings about the obedience essential to our ultimate salvation
Exodus 19
8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD….

Israel began to rely on their obedience and in their participation in these services and sacrifices etc rather than in the grace and mercy of God. This is very similar to the Catholics reliance on sacraments and ritual. (Rom. 10:3-8; Heb. 2:4). This is what the apostle Paul’s letter to the Galatians was all about.

What then, does all this mean for us living as we know in the “New Testament” times? What is this New Testament, or covenant? God’s love has not changed, nor His purpose in undoing all the works of Satan. (1 John 3:8) Therefore the new covenant must involve a new method by which He is to be able to fulfil His promises. Why? Because the old covenant was based on faulty promises. Were God’s promises faulty? Surely not, no, but rather the peoples' promises. (Heb. 8:6,7) The people had misjudged the part they were to play in the covenant. In Exod. 19:5,6 God promised (again) that He would make of them a mighty nation and a holy people, and their response was in the form of a faulty promise. They answered, “all that the Lord hath spoken we will do”. (Exod. 19:8) Unfortunately they had little idea of what they promised. God said that He would perform and establish His covenant; but rather than thanking Him and surrendering themselves in faith and acceptance to His promise, they said they would perform His promise. Just like Abram and Sarai when introducing Hagar into the transaction between God and Abram. In a sense they were introducing a mediator, much as has Rome done which is the spirit of Antichrist. This was not Abraham’s covenant to alter or ammend. This was God’s covenant, and like all covenants or testaments, once blood is spilt that testament can never be changed. History reveals of course the abject failure of Israel’s promise, failure to such an extent that Israel didn’t even recognise the very God of the covenant when He visited…we are all well aware of what they did to their own Messiah.

Therefore God had to make a new covenant with the house of Israel, based on better promises (Heb. 8:9,10) Today, God’s promises remain. He still would bring us power and victory over Satan and sin, but the method by which He would accomplish this has changed. The just however must still live by faith.

The old covenant, the old method by which God was to save His people and establish righteousness and obedience to His commandments was through the Mosaic law. Circumcision, sacrifices and burnt offerings, the annual sabbaths and feast days and the accompanying services of the sanctuary etc (Hebrews 9:1-7), comprised God’s method to teach His people, the nation of Israel, the ways of righteousness. They were His lesson book. Israel was to look upon these as the gospel of mercy and in faith look ahead to their Saviour, their Messiah. The new covenant is still by faith, not in a coming Saviour, but in a risen Saviour, Who writes His holy moral law in our hearts and minds. (2 Cor. 3:3) Thus, through Jesus, Satan is conquered, and his power over us is broken. Justice is satisfied, and God looks upon us as if we had never sinned. God gives us the new birth experience and the power to overcome sin. (1 John 3:9; 2 Peter 1:3,4). He dies in our place, and we, by faith die with Him. (Romans 6:1-7) And the result is what Adam and Eve had before the fall: a loving personal relationship with our Creator. Only today, by God’s grace and mercy, we are closer to Him than Adam and Eve could have ever wished for, for we have His Spirit abiding within. (Coll. 1:27)

Therefore God shows that His love is unconditional. He died while we were yet sinners. But His promises are not unconditional, nor have they ever been. Adam and Eve found that out.

Obedience is a prerequsite to our ultimate salvation. While Christ is “made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification and redemption (1 Cor 1:30) yet the only ones who are perfected or sanctified are those who fully accept His grace. True, He is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them” (Heb 7:25) yet those who would be saved must come unto God and “lay hold upon eternal life”. (1 Tim. 6:19) When we accept Him, we are justified; His righteousness is imputed to us and we stand before God just as if we had never sinned. But only those who follow on and experience Him as an indwelling power, and who continually appropriate His grace for victory over their sinful natures, are sanctified or perfected.
Great post...very well explained.

No covenant ever abolished the previous one.
The Mosaic Covenant was conditional upon the obedience of Israel.
The New Covenant is Unconditional but based on being a part of it. You must be IN IT and be a part of it. This does not abolish the necessity of obedience as was the same in the Mosaic Covenant...

It's just that the obedience is now possible through the help of the Holy Spirit within our heart and through our love for Jesus. So, in this way, it is GOD who is within us to keep us.

The laws (10 commandments) are no longer written on stone but in our hearts
and it is now possible to follow the law.
Jeremiah 31:33
Ezekiel 36:26
 

ScottA

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Covenants are "Agreements". Christ does not "agree for us"

Under the Old Covenant in its first sense the agreement is "obey and live... or sin and die" -- Adam and Eve eventually chose sin-and-die. Thus all mankind was under the sin-and-die clause for "all sinned". All have a sinful nature.

Romans 3 says that to this very day - the Law still condemns all mankind as sinners under that Old Covenant standard. So that "all" need salvation.. all need a Savior.

=====================

The NEW Covenant in the Old Testament says that the new agreement is that we live as new creations with the Law of God written on the heart, with sins forgiven, and being in the family of God - taught by God. See Jeremiah 31:31-33.

Both of those covenants are fully in place today.

Under one - all mankind is lost
Under the other - those who choose it - are saved from their lost condition.

And as Christ reminds us in Matthew 7 - the "many" are on the road to eternal death. The few have chosen the New Covenant
As the shades of time go...these things are true.

But by rightly dividing the world of truth in the light of "all truth" of which we have been promised, the above is only true in the world. In the presence of God and in the spirit, however, all the above "is" just as God is "I am", rather than "I was" or "I will be." So then, when Paul says "all have sinned" (past tense), he was referring to what "is" (already...and forever). And just as all "sinned", all "were" crucified and raised up with Christ (past tense), which things are therefore also retroactive. Thus...the times of the world simply tell the tale of what "is" by God.

Time is an illusion.
 
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Helen

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As the shades of time go...these things are true.

But by rightly dividing the world of truth in the light of "all truth" of which we have been promised, the above is only true in the world. In the presence of God and in the spirit, however, all the above "is" just as God is "I am", rather than "I was" or "I will be." So then, when Paul says "all have sinned" (past tense), he was referring to what "is" (already...and forever). And just as all "sinned", all "were" crucified and raised up with Christ (past tense), which things are therefore also retroactive. Thus...the times of the world simply tell the tale of what "is" by God.

Time is an illusion.

Good to see you...I had almost given up on you!!!
 
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ScottA

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ha so the Ten Commandments are no longer in effect i guess? Is that what you are trying to say?
No, not at all. The ten commandments are always in effect - they are of God, whom is eternal.

The point is, all that pertains to God, simply "is." The chronology of time is an illusion existing only in the world.

Therefore, we are instructed to walk in the spirit, that we should not be held under the ways of the [fallen] world.
 

ScottA

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Good to see you...I had almost given up on you!!!
I have been busy. Being busy, I have also noticed that I have become weary of debating what is not debatable with many who would rather defend error than truth, as if God's truth was a matter of opinion. I do love it, but then again, I hate it, and a break now and then is probably for the best.

Thanks for noticing - I have missed you too!
 
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bbyrd009

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God save us from those who insist they know the truth
when someone says this you know they are full of it, we even have Scripture to this effect
 

BobRyan

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The bottom line.

1. The NEW Covenant is in the OLD Testament - Jeremiah 31:31-33
2. It does not say what many have imagined it to say.
3. It is the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9
4. It remains "unchanged" in the NT - see Hebrews 8:6-10
 

bbyrd009

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The bottom line.
another determinist fantasy imo
1. The NEW Covenant is in the OLD Testament - Jeremiah 31:31-33
2. It does not say what many have imagined it to say.
3. It is the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9
4. It remains "unchanged" in the NT - see Hebrews 8:6-10
hard to argue with those i guess, god points imo
 
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BobRyan

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Those among us who preach "Christian freedom = Lawlessness" famously argue that "the Old Covenant was the Law and the New Covenant is Grace". If that's true, we should able to replace "law" with "old covenant" in Scripture, right?

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."
Romans 3:31 King James Version

Good point.

In fact if one were to take the time to actually "read" the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-33 would show up. And that says "this IS the Covenant.. I will write My LAW on their heart and mind".

So then as you point out - simply replacing "LAW" with "Old Covenant" would turn it into "I will make a NEW Covenant... this IS the Covenant.. I will write My Old Covenant on their heart and mind".
 
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Phoneman777

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Good point.

In fact if one were to take the time to actually "read" the New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-33 would show up. And that says "this IS the Covenant.. I will write My LAW on their heart and mind".

So then as you point out - simply replacing "LAW" with "Old Covenant" would turn it into "I will make a NEW Covenant... this IS the Covenant.. I will write My Old Covenant on their heart and mind".
You, sir, have just dropped a 50 kiloton nuclear truth bomb on the capital city of Churchianity. The collateral damage is staggering...
 
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ScottA

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God save us from those who insist they know the truth
when someone says this you know they are full of it, we even have Scripture to this effect
And if any agree with the scriptures having come into the knowledge of the truth, even then there are naysayers.
 

bbyrd009

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And if any agree with the scriptures having come into the knowledge of the truth, even then there are naysayers.
He who says he knows, does not
so i guess Scripture is one of the naysayers lol
this is also revealed imo when you (one) attempts to state any "truth" from Scripture, which imo cannot be done; or at least i've been looking for a couple years now. Scripture is not the Book of Truth iow, as Scripture even 'splains