Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

[veteran]

"OK, readers, here is the question: you need open-heart surgery to save your life. One doctor who has done a hundred of these surgeries wants to do yours, and charge you $100,000.

Another doctor has never done even ONE open-heart surgery, but tells you he has read the books and is confident he can do it right - he tells you he will do it for $50,000.

So, WHICH doctor would you choose?

I have been praying in the Spirit since 1966. I know from experience that tongues are UNKNOWN to the hearer and to the speaker, for it is the Holy Spirit that gives the utterance. HE creates the words and the mouth speaks the words out, bypassing the brain or mind entirely. OF COURSE if someone has never received this baptism with the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues, they will not understand this. Veteran has used his human understanding, and it this case it has fallen short, as it usually does."


Doesn't matter how long... you think... you've been praying "in the Spirit", i.e., a gibberish that no one can understand. It's not the TRUE cloven tongue of Pentecost UNLESS it manifests JUST LIKE ON PENTECOST! You can find just HOW it manifested by studying the Acts 2 chapter, LINE UPON LINE.

Using our mind God gave us and reasoning WITH Him in His Word like He said... for us to do in Isaiah, will never... agree with that other spirit that you have received that's not of Him.

Isa 1:16-20
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
(KJV)



"Paul knew EXACTLY what he was talking about here: he that "speakes in a tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

Veteran missed this part, NO MAN, anywhere on the planet understands, because it is NOT an earthly language: it is the Holy Spirit that creates it. He is speaking "mysteries" for that same reason, it is a HEAVENLY, GODLY language."

This is where another spirit has trapped you into its way of thinking, for it's the occultists that claim the existence of some mysterious heavenly language. Some occultists that came to Christ Jesus have even commented on how the gibberish speech you're talking about included words of incantations they... had been taught!!! That evidence also exists with babel speech that's been documented of calling on the names of ancient pagan gods like Shiva and Ba.

The fact that even YOU can't understand what you're saying with that speech proves all the more that you don't recognize how another spirit has taken hold of you.

The authentic cloven tongue of Pentecost is the one tongue which ALL NATIONS SPOKE ORIGINALLY BEFORE THE TOWER OF BABEL EVENT. And God said He was going to return all peoples back to a "pure language" so ALL could call upon Him with one accord (Zeph.3:9). THAT... is what the true cloven tongue was about on Pentecost, and still is today. It is UNDERSTOOD BY ALL PRESENT WHEN HEARD REGARDLESS OF ONE'S LANGUAGE OF BIRTH!




"God the Holy Spirit creates the utterance: "they...began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is speaking or praying IN THE SPIRIT: For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful."

Even with that very Scripture example you cannot even keep to what it says, because of another spirit that is in you. The "other tongues" Christ's Apostles spoke on Pentecost per Acts 2 went out... AS... LANGUAGES! That's what the word in the Greek there for "tongues" means in Acts 2!!!

But the another spirit in you has deceived you into thinking it is some babel gibberish unknown tongue that no one understands!




"Readers, understand, this is supernatural speech, not normal speech, for normal speech goes through the mind and thoughts are thought first and then spoken. For tongues or prophecy, the mind is bypassed and the utterance comes from the Holy Spirit to the human spirit to the mouth to be spoken out. It is entirely supernatural. No wonder Paul said the understanding is unfruitful: because it is a heavenly language and NO MAN (anywhere on the planet) understands. I will give an example. Once I was called up to lead the church in prayer for a certain thing. I started out with my mind and got maybe two or three words out with my understanding, when suddenly the Holy Spirit took over, and I prayed the rest of the prayer out (in English) WITHOUT my understanding. This utterance came straight from the Holy Spirit to my spirit to my mouth. I did not know what I was going to say until I heard the words that I spoke. It was a prophecy prayer; in my own language but supernatural."


In EVERY SINGLE BIBLE CASE of God speaking to His servants in The Bible, it was ALWAYS with words of understanding, and NOT... some occult babel speech by a familiar spirit!




"Paul knew exactly what He was talking about, for he prayed in tongues (praying mysteries in the Spirit) more than all the rest.
A prayer in the spirit is "unfruitful" to the mind because it DOES NOT ORIGINATE in the mind, but in the Spirit by the Holy Spirit."


Paul's Message in 1 Cor.14 was NOT... about praying in some unknown babel gibberish. He said he would pray with the spirit AND with the UNDERSTANDING! That means BOTH TOGETHER at the same time! Your familiar spirit has TWISTED what Paul said.



"We should understand, ANY prayer in the Spirit is a perfect prayer for that time and place, because it comes from God the Holy Spirit that understands us more than we do, and knows EXACTLY what to pray. So He created the sounds, and attaches MEANING to the sounds as it is passed to the mouth to be spoken. God the Father (and Jesus) is the ONLY OTHER that understands what was prayed, for HE CREATED it. God the Father then answers these prayers just as He answers any other prayer.

This is a gift for ALL BELIEVERS. It is free and comes when one receives the mighty baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is not to be scoffed at or made fun of, for it is the Holy Spirit. It is not nice to make fun of the Holy Spirit! It is dangerous!

Lamad."

All you're doing is latching onto signs and wonders that my Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles WARNED about for the last days to not be deceived into! When the world hears the TRUE cloven tongue that manifested on Pentecost again, EVERYONE in ALL nations will UNDERSTAND it in their OWN languages of birth, even the very DIALECTS of the languages where they were born and raised! THAT... is the TRUE CLOVEN TONGUE of Pentecost. What you're speaking is not.

Amen JB, as the Word says, we are to pray and sing in the spirit, but are also to pray and sing with the understanding.

These are the 2 types of praying and singing, so we are not to do the one exclusively to the exclusion of the other.

Ask for the gift and it shall be given.

Mat 21:22 "And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."

God bless.

No DECEIVER, that's NOT what Paul was saying. Paul's meaning is to pray with BOTH at the SAME time! sing with BOTH at the same time!

NOT separately like that other spirit is telling you.
Those speaking an unknown babel gibberish tongue CANNOT HEED the Acts 2 Scripture as written. Acts 2 is VERY CLEAR that ALL peoples present on Pentecost heard THEIR OWN LANGUAGES BEING SPOKEN.

So that is HOW one can know those speaking a babel unknown tongue have received another spirit, not The Holy Spirit.

Another way is how their familiar spirits pushes the false idea that one doesn't have evidence of The Holy Spirit UNLESS you speak the same unknown gibberish babel tongue they speak! Apostle Paul NEVER made that a required evidence of having The Holy Spirit! So that's another way how you can KNOW a false spirit is speaking through those.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

1Co 14:21-22 In the law(Isaiah 28:11) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

No DECEIVER, that's NOT what Paul was saying. Paul's meaning is to pray with BOTH at the SAME time! sing with BOTH at the same time!

NOT separately like that other spirit is telling you.

Those speaking an unknown babel gibberish tongue CANNOT HEED the Acts 2 Scripture as written. Acts 2 is VERY CLEAR that ALL peoples present on Pentecost heard THEIR OWN LANGUAGES BEING SPOKEN.

So that is HOW one can know those speaking a babel unknown tongue have received another spirit, not The Holy Spirit.

Another way is how their familiar spirits pushes the false idea that one doesn't have evidence of The Holy Spirit UNLESS you speak the same unknown gibberish babel tongue they speak! Apostle Paul NEVER made that a required evidence of having The Holy Spirit! So that's another way how you can KNOW a false spirit is speaking through those.

Agree!

 

[Trumpeter]

1Co 14:21-22 In the law(Isaiah 28:11) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.


Agree!

Greetings all,

As I've said before, I've seen this gift in operation at a small Bible study and the person that interpreted was my wife's best friend .

This women's only language was English and she told us after, that she heard him speak in English, while no one else knew what he was saying.

She's a very upright born again believer and we know her well enough to know that she wasn't lieing about what she heard him say.

It was a very powerful word from the Lord and she was as shocked as we were that The Lord gave her the interpretation.

God bless.

 

[veteran]

Greetings all,

As I've said before, I've seen this gift in operation at a small Bible study and the person that interpreted was my wife's best friend .

This women's only language was English and she told us after, that she heard him speak in English, while no one else knew what he was saying.

She's a very upright born again believer and we know her well enough to know that she wasn't lieing about what she heard him say.

It was a very powerful word from the Lord and she was as shocked as we were that The Lord gave her the interpretation.

God bless.

Yeah, and my wife went to one of those churches where a girl came up to her speaking the babel tongue and interpreted it for her too; she said God told her to tell me to quit my job.

Thing is, my Heavenly Father and His Son DID NOT tell ME to quit my job. If I had my whole family would have been in dire straights and broken up, which is what the devil likes to do, break up the family. So it's like Apostle John said, believe not every spirit , but try the spirits whether they are of God... (1 John 4:1).

 

[michaelvpardo]

[SIZE=9pt]iamlamad, on 11 Jul 2013 - 6:47 PM, said:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]It seems there is no end to the fabrication experts - the posttribbers! OF COURSE pretrib is explicitly taught! I would not believe it if it wasn't.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]It is quite clear from the context that Paul's apotasia is the depature of the one restaining or holding down the revealing. It is quite clear that Paul's rapture comes at a time of peace and safety, as the trigger for the signs as seen at the 6th seal.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]But the real mental 2 x 4 for posttrib is John seeing the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7 of Revelation, before he even started the 70th week of Daniel. Posttribbers therefore must try to rearrange John's God given order to make it fit their theory.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]By the way, HOW do you find it a time of peace and safety when the world's population has gone from 7 billion down to perhaps a few million? How do you do that? The vials have been poured out, and people are sitting in the dark, gnawing their tongues for pain, scared out of their wits wondering what God will do next. The ONLY thing they found they could enjoy was the death of the two witnesses, 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial. But now they wait, KNOWING God has said no one will know the day nor the hour. They KNOW He is coming, but they are scared. Is this your "peace and safety?" Perhaps you guess they are thinking, "God, is this the best you've got? We are still here and we are still alive! Now that you have given it your best shot, we can finally have peace and safety!"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]You might want to take a look at Daniel 9, and see WHO this 70th week is for. You may want to meditate on Luke 21 and see WHO might be found worthy to escape all these things.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Always know, Michael, it is difficult to teach a posttrib theory when God is very much pretrib. It is like forcing a square peg into a round hole. It won't fit, but the mentality is, if those teaching posttrib hit it enough times, just maybe it will fall through. What real scripture, taken in its context really teaches a posttrib rapture? You have Matt. 24, a gathering from heaven. Sorry, don't fit. Perhaps your very best scripture is John 6 "the last day." But the Day of the Lord IS the "last day," and it is an extended "day" that begins right where John says, "the day of His wrath has come." Oh, let's see, what does posttrib do with this verse? They IGNORE it! So not only does postrib have the rapture wrong, they also have the Day of the Lord wrong. It is like dominoes: if one starts to fall, all the others fall with it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]May I suggest you take off your preconceived glasses, and start again with Rev. 1. This time, tell God you will NOT form any doctrine until HE tells you what His intended meaning was when He caused John to write.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Lamad[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]My response:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] I don't have any preconceptions or problem seeing what the scripture plainly says. I actually did once believe in the pre-trib rapture, but the Lord began showing me the truth a few years ago during my devotional reading through of the scriptures. At first it was just a little doubt about the doctrine, but on one day, not very long ago, while reading through the book of the revelation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a verse that I'd read at least twenty times before nearly jumped off the page and the Spirit of prophecy confirmed His word and put aside my doubts:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]4 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]5 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]6 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I hope that you can see that these verses describe the saints, those who live and reign with Jesus Christ during the millenial reign, as also those who refused the mark of the beast and those who had been beheaded for their witness. If this is not the church, then the church doesn't live and reign with Christ during the millenium and isn't resurrected until the final resurrection and judgement. The pre-trib rapture and these verses both can't be true. The very notion is absurd and makes either the Apostle John out to be a liar or it makes God out to be a liar. I've heard John MacArthur, a scholar for whom I hold great respect, try to explain away these verses by making the first resurrection a resurrection of the just which occurs in multiple stages, but if that were true, then there are two separate groups of saints, the tribulation saints who live and reign with Christ, and the earlier Church saints who have mysteriously disappeared until after the millenium. This even contradicts the most prominent proof text for the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]13 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]17 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]18 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]The Apostle Paul wrote this to comfort those that were concerned that they wouldn't see their lost loved ones (deceased) until the final resurrection and that those dead had somehow not been recipients of the promises of God. Now the verse is not teaching a pre-trib rapture, but is assuring the church that the entire church will return with the Lord at His second coming, those that are still alive being changed, glorified, in an instant and meeting the Lord in the air, so that they will return with Him fulfilling what the old testament scripture promised of the Lord at His coming. The old testament teaches that the Lord will visit the earth in vengeance together with His Holy ones. The new testament teaches that He will return with His saints, consuming His adversaries with the breath of His mouth and that the first resurection is part of the event of His return. Now if the Lord would wisk away the entire church prior to the events of the rise of the anti-christ and the great tribulation, he would be unjust toward those saints who serve Him during the reign of the anti-christ, not having "delivered" them with the balance of His church and there is no injustice with the Lord. You could try to argue that the tribulation saints aren't raptured because they weren't believers at the time of the rapture, but that also would make God out to be a liar:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]28 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]29 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]30 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]All the saints are predestined to be saints, all are foreknown by God: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]3 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]4 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]5 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]6 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.Ephesians 1:3-6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Do you actually think that the Lord is going to tell the tribulation saints "Gee, I'm sorry that you guys had to be beheaded and witness the horrors of the great tribulation, because you didn't get in the boat with the rest of my saints." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Its so dumb it would be funny if there weren't so many out there decieved into believing such a thing. I wish that the Lord would keep me from being here during the events which are coming upon the earth. I don't have much of a stomach for observing others in pain, having known a great deal of pain in my own life. I'm sure that many of us will die during the wars, the plagues, the famines, the persecutions, and the other evil events to come and those happening now, and in that way will be kept from the temptation to deny the Lord, but I'm also reasonably sure that I've been called to be a witness of the judgement, which would be difficult if I'm not here. Some of us are already doing this, pointing out to an unbelieving world that the earth is in travail and that those things happening now are not just the result of producing too much CO2 and too many flourocarbons, etc. Do you see a lot of people falling on their knees as a result of the calamities now with us? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]20 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]21 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. Revelation 9:20-21[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Don't think that this couldn't include the church, as there are obviously a great deal of things which people within the context of the church need to repent of. We like to divorse ourselves from professing Christians guilty of "gross" sin, yet none of us is without sin and we measure by degree, starting with everyone who looks a little worse than we do. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]But we aren't destined for wrath (at least not eternal wrath): [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“For a mere moment I have forsaken you, But with great mercies I will gather you. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]8 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” Says the [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt], your Redeemer. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]9 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]“For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]For as I have sworn That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, So have I sworn That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. Isaiah 54:7-9[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Oh, I forgot, this only applies to Jews. Yeah, right.[/SIZE]

 

[iamlamad]

[SIZE=9pt]iamlamad, on 11 Jul 2013 - 6:47 PM, said:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]It seems there is no end to the fabrication experts - the posttribbers! OF COURSE pretrib is explicitly taught! I would not believe it if it wasn't.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]It is quite clear from the context that Paul's apotasia is the depature of the one restaining or holding down the revealing. It is quite clear that Paul's rapture comes at a time of peace and safety, as the trigger for the signs as seen at the 6th seal.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]But the real mental 2 x 4 for posttrib is John seeing the raptured church in heaven in chapter 7 of Revelation, before he even started the 70th week of Daniel. Posttribbers therefore must try to rearrange John's God given order to make it fit their theory.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]By the way, HOW do you find it a time of peace and safety when the world's population has gone from 7 billion down to perhaps a few million? How do you do that? The vials have been poured out, and people are sitting in the dark, gnawing their tongues for pain, scared out of their wits wondering what God will do next. The ONLY thing they found they could enjoy was the death of the two witnesses, 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial. But now they wait, KNOWING God has said no one will know the day nor the hour. They KNOW He is coming, but they are scared. Is this your "peace and safety?" Perhaps you guess they are thinking, "God, is this the best you've got? We are still here and we are still alive! Now that you have given it your best shot, we can finally have peace and safety!"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]You might want to take a look at Daniel 9, and see WHO this 70th week is for. You may want to meditate on Luke 21 and see WHO might be found worthy to escape all these things.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Always know, Michael, it is difficult to teach a posttrib theory when God is very much pretrib. It is like forcing a square peg into a round hole. It won't fit, but the mentality is, if those teaching posttrib hit it enough times, just maybe it will fall through. What real scripture, taken in its context really teaches a posttrib rapture? You have Matt. 24, a gathering from heaven. Sorry, don't fit. Perhaps your very best scripture is John 6 "the last day." But the Day of the Lord IS the "last day," and it is an extended "day" that begins right where John says, "the day of His wrath has come." Oh, let's see, what does posttrib do with this verse? They IGNORE it! So not only does postrib have the rapture wrong, they also have the Day of the Lord wrong. It is like dominoes: if one starts to fall, all the others fall with it.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]May I suggest you take off your preconceived glasses, and start again with Rev. 1. This time, tell God you will NOT form any doctrine until HE tells you what His intended meaning was when He caused John to write.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]Lamad[/SIZE]

[SIZE=9pt]My response:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt] I don't have any preconceptions or problem seeing what the scripture plainly says. I actually did once believe in the pre-trib rapture, but the Lord began showing me the truth a few years ago during my devotional reading through of the scriptures. At first it was just a little doubt about the doctrine, but on one day, not very long ago, while reading through the book of the revelation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, a verse that I'd read at least twenty times before nearly jumped off the page and the Spirit of prophecy confirmed His word and put aside my doubts:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]4 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]5 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]6 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]I hope that you can see that these verses describe the saints, those who live and reign with Jesus Christ during the millenial reign, as also those who refused the mark of the beast and those who had been beheaded for their witness. If this is not the church, then the church doesn't live and reign with Christ during the millenium and isn't resurrected until the final resurrection and judgement. The pre-trib rapture and these verses both can't be true. The very notion is absurd and makes either the Apostle John out to be a liar or it makes God out to be a liar. I've heard John MacArthur, a scholar for whom I hold great respect, try to explain away these verses by making the first resurrection a resurrection of the just which occurs in multiple stages, but if that were true, then there are two separate groups of saints, the tribulation saints who live and reign with Christ, and the earlier Church saints who have mysteriously disappeared until after the millenium. This even contradicts the most prominent proof text for the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]13 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]17 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]18 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Therefore comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]The Apostle Paul wrote this to comfort those that were concerned that they wouldn't see their lost loved ones (deceased) until the final resurrection and that those dead had somehow not been recipients of the promises of God. Now the verse is not teaching a pre-trib rapture, but is assuring the church that the entire church will return with the Lord at His second coming, those that are still alive being changed, glorified, in an instant and meeting the Lord in the air, so that they will return with Him fulfilling what the old testament scripture promised of the Lord at His coming. The old testament teaches that the Lord will visit the earth in vengeance together with His Holy ones. The new testament teaches that He will return with His saints, consuming His adversaries with the breath of His mouth and that the first resurection is part of the event of His return. Now if the Lord would wisk away the entire church prior to the events of the rise of the anti-christ and the great tribulation, he would be unjust toward those saints who serve Him during the reign of the anti-christ, not having "delivered" them with the balance of His church and there is no injustice with the Lord. You could try to argue that the tribulation saints aren't raptured because they weren't believers at the time of the rapture, but that also would make God out to be a liar:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]28 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]29 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]30 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Romans 8:28-30[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]All the saints are predestined to be saints, all are foreknown by God: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]3 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]4 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]5 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]6 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.Ephesians 1:3-6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Do you actually think that the Lord is going to tell the tribulation saints "Gee, I'm sorry that you guys had to be beheaded and witness the horrors of the great tribulation, because you didn't get in the boat with the rest of my saints." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Its so dumb it would be funny if there weren't so many out there decieved into believing such a thing. I wish that the Lord would keep me from being here during the events which are coming upon the earth. I don't have much of a stomach for observing others in pain, having known a great deal of pain in my own life. I'm sure that many of us will die during the wars, the plagues, the famines, the persecutions, and the other evil events to come and those happening now, and in that way will be kept from the temptation to deny the Lord, but I'm also reasonably sure that I've been called to be a witness of the judgement, which would be difficult if I'm not here. Some of us are already doing this, pointing out to an unbelieving world that the earth is in travail and that those things happening now are not just the result of producing too much CO2 and too many flourocarbons, etc. Do you see a lot of people falling on their knees as a result of the calamities now with us? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]20 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]21 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. Revelation 9:20-21[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Don't think that this couldn't include the church, as there are obviously a great deal of things which people within the context of the church need to repent of. We like to divorse ourselves from professing Christians guilty of "gross" sin, yet none of us is without sin and we measure by degree, starting with everyone who looks a little worse than we do. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]But we aren't destined for wrath (at least not eternal wrath): [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“For a mere moment I have forsaken you, But with great mercies I will gather you. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]8 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]But with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” Says the [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt], your Redeemer. [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]9 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]“For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]For as I have sworn That the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, So have I sworn That I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. Isaiah 54:7-9[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Oh, I forgot, this only applies to Jews. Yeah, right.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]4 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]and judgment was committed to them.[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]This is the raptured church. WHEN did they get into heaven? See Rev. 7.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]The pre-trib rapture and these verses both can't be true. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]If this is not the church, then the church doesn't live and reign with Christ during the millenium...[/SIZE]

Of course it is true: there are TWO groups of people here. You focused on the second group that got beheaded. The bride is the first group. The church is there and they DO reign with Christ. There is NO contradiction here with pretrib. God is pretrib, so there will be no contradictions.

[SIZE=10.5pt]I've heard John MacArthur, a scholar for whom I hold great respect, try to explain away these verses by making the first resurrection a resurrection of the just which occurs in multiple stages, but if that were true, then there are two separate groups of saints, the tribulation saints who live and reign with Christ, and the earlier Church saints who have mysteriously disappeared until after the millenium. This even contradicts the most prominent proof text for the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture:[/SIZE]

I don't see your problem! I read these verses and see a perfect fit with pretrib. Perhaps you can explain more what exactly you find is the problem? I agree with MacArthur. Jesus was the first stage of the first (primary, not first in counting) resurrection. The Old testament saints that rose with Him were the next stage. The resurrection of those dead in Christ will be the next phase, then the 144000 will be caught up as the next phase. Do you think all these resurrections must happen at the same moment in time? The early church saints are the ones on thrones.

[SIZE=10.5pt]Now if the Lord would wisk away the entire church prior to the events of the rise of the anti-christ and the great tribulation, he would be unjust toward those saints who serve Him during the reign of the anti-christ, not having "delivered" them with the balance of His church[/SIZE]

WRONG! He has made a way of escape and wants ALL to take that way of escape. Whose fault is it if someone refuses? Whose falt is it if people are lukewarm? It is NOT His will that His people meet the antichrist.

[SIZE=10.5pt]All the saints are predestined to be saints, all are foreknown by God: [/SIZE]

Surely He knows everyone who will turn to Him during the 70th week. And they can still make it to heaven, IF they resist the mark and surrender their head.

[SIZE=10.5pt]Do you actually think that the Lord is going to tell the tribulation saints "Gee, I'm sorry that you guys had to be beheaded and witness the horrors of the great tribulation, because you didn't get in the boat with the rest of my saints." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Its so dumb it would be funny if there weren't so many out there decieved into believing such a thing.[/SIZE]

You will have to take this up with Him when you get to heaven. However, it is true, many will be left behind and it will be their OWN fault. Whose fault was it that Noah and his family were the ONLY people that got into the boat?

[SIZE=10.5pt]I'm sure that many of us will die during the wars, the plagues, the famines, the persecutions, and the other evil events to come and those happening now, and in that way will be kept from the temptation to deny the Lord, but I'm also reasonably sure that I've been called to be a witness of the judgement, which would be difficult if I'm not here. [/SIZE]

Yet, God has offered you a way of escape. Why would God offer a way of escape if His will was you be here? The ONLY people He has called to be here are the two witnesses. You can TAKE His escape plan. That is, if you can only believe it.

[SIZE=10.5pt]We like to divorse ourselves from professing Christians guilty of "gross" sin, yet none of us is without sin and we measure by degree, starting with everyone who looks a little worse than we do. [/SIZE]

It is not wise to compare ourselves with others. The ONLY thing we need to concern ourselves with is this: are we following His plan for our lives? Are we doing what He has called US to do?

[SIZE=10.5pt]But we aren't destined for wrath (at least not eternal wrath): WE are not destined for His wrath, that is certain![/SIZE]

Lamad

 

[veteran]

[SIZE=9pt]iamlamad, on 11 Jul 2013 - 6:47 PM, said:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=9pt]It seems there is no end to the fabrication experts - the posttribbers! OF COURSE pretrib is explicitly taught![/SIZE]

You've got that completely backwards!

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

You've got that completely backwards!

Yep. None so blind as those who cannot see.

 

[iamlamad]

No DECEIVER, that's NOT what Paul was saying. Paul's meaning is to pray with BOTH at the SAME time! sing with BOTH at the same time!

NOT separately like that other spirit is telling you.

Those speaking an unknown babel gibberish tongue CANNOT HEED the Acts 2 Scripture as written. Acts 2 is VERY CLEAR that ALL peoples present on Pentecost heard THEIR OWN LANGUAGES BEING SPOKEN.

So that is HOW one can know those speaking a babel unknown tongue have received another spirit, not The Holy Spirit.

Another way is how their familiar spirits pushes the false idea that one doesn't have evidence of The Holy Spirit UNLESS you speak the same unknown gibberish babel tongue they speak! Apostle Paul NEVER made that a required evidence of having The Holy Spirit! So that's another way how you can KNOW a false spirit is speaking through those.

How amazing! The more I pray in tongues, the more I praise and worship GOD! False spirits NEVER praise God! They hate Him.


Did you ever notice, it does NOT SAY they SPOKE in all these languages, it clearly says they HEARD. There is a big difference.

Readers, notice in Acts 1 it was NOT A SUGGESTION to be filled with His Spirit, it was a command.

Again, readers, which doctor would you choose: one who has done a hundred open heart surgeries or one that has just read the books on it, but thinks he can perform one?

Lamad

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

You've got that completely backwards!

Doesn't it amaze you the lengths pre-tribbers go to support their endless fabricated lie?
I'm all done dealing with their sinful blasphemous contradictions.
It takes volumes of books to cover every fabrication. Pretribulationism is nothing but lie upon lie, fabrication upon fabrication, and contradiction upon contradiction.

Why doesn't it surprise me that he (lamad) speaks in tongues!
I've found it to be a complete waste of time dealing with anything he has to say about anything!

 

[John S]

Lamad - You are truly amazing. God audibly speaks to you. You can speak in Tongues.

Why do you even bother with such lowly people? God has NEVER spoken audibly to me. I have NEVER spoken in Tongues.

...or MAYBE God has never audibly spoken to you and MAYBE you aren't capable of speaking in Tongues - and MAYBE you should admit that you have lied.
This IS a Christian site, in case you didn't realize that. I'm going to assume that lying is frowned upon.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad - You are truly amazing. God audibly speaks to you. You can speak in Tongues.

Why do you even bother with such lowly people? God has NEVER spoken audibly to me. I have NEVER spoken in Tongues.

...or MAYBE God has never audibly spoken to you and MAYBE you aren't capable of speaking in Tongues - and MAYBE you should admit that you have lied.
This IS a Christian site, in case you didn't realize that. I'm going to assume that lying is frowned upon.

John, why do you doubt? Have you not read?

Acts 8:29
Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”

Acts 9:4
Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

Acts 9:7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one

Acts 10:13
And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

Acts 10:15
And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.”




Acts 10:19
While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are seeking you.

Acts 11:7
And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise, Peter; kill and eat.’

Acts 11:9
But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’



Acts 11:12
Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man’s house.

Acts 16:7
After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them.

Acts 21:4
And finding disciples, we stayed there seven days. They told Paul through the Spirit not to go up to Jerusalem.

John, did it not enter your mind that praying in tongues (praying in the SPIRIT) might have something to do with HEARING from God? Think about it. It is not strange that I hear His voice: it is strange that ALL BELIEVERS DON'T hear His voice.

Lamad

Doesn't it amaze you the lengths pre-tribbers go to support their endless fabricated lie?
I'm all done dealing with their sinful blasphemous contradictions.
It takes volumes of books to cover every fabrication. Pretribulationism is nothing but lie upon lie, fabrication upon fabrication, and contradiction upon contradiction.

Why doesn't it surprise me that he (lamad) speaks in tongues!
I've found it to be a complete waste of time dealing with anything he has to say about anything!

Yet, I bring scripture and the intent of the Author for those scriptures. The problem is not with me nor with the scripture I bring; the problem is you have a problem with these scriptures. You have a problem BELIEVING them.

Luke 21
36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Black sheep, be honest now, do YOU follow this scripture? Do YOU pray to be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come? I doubt it much, for you don't BELIEVE this verse.

1 Thes. 5
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief.

WHY is it both the Day and the Lord come as a thief? It is because His coming for His bride STARTS the day. Now, WHERE did John write about the start of the Day? Oh yes, "The day of His wrath has come." And this is in chapter 6. Black Sheep, this is THIRTEEN CHAPTERS before Jesus comes on the white horse! And you expect your readers to believe this hokey?

You choose to believe that His coming for His bride will be at His coming in Rev. 19. Please take note, this is AFTER 7 trumpet judgements and AFTER 7 bowls of His wrath with associated plagues. It has been dark for days, and people are scared out of their minds. "they gnawed their tongues because of the pain."
"You have given them blood to drink."
"men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God "
"They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores"
"Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell."
"every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent."

You expect your readers to believe that they will be saying "peace and safety" after all of this? Wow!

For the readers, Paul tells us HIS rapture comes when people are saying "peace and safety." Does it seem more likely people will be saying "peace and safety" this your or next year or the next, or AFTER the earth has been destroyed and the sinners out of it? You choose.

Lamad

 

[John S]

Lamad - You are truly amazing. You have absolutely no qualms about lying to people on a Christian site.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad - You are truly amazing. You have absolutely no qualms about lying to people on a Christian site.

John, do you say these things to cover up the fact that YOU don't hear from God? We ALL should be hearing His voice.

 

[Trumpeter]

John, do you say these things to cover up the fact that YOU don't hear from God? We ALL should be hearing His voice.

Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

 

[John S]

Trumpeter - Are you claiming that God AUDIBLY speaks to you - because that is what Lamad is claiming?

Lamad - NO - God doesn't audibly speak to me and I don't go onto Christian websites telling lies that He does.
Shame on you.

 

[Trumpeter]

Trumpeter - Are you claiming that God AUDIBLY speaks to you - because that is what Lamad is claiming?

Greetings John,

This is how He speaks to me:



1Ki 19:12

and after the earthquake a fire, [but] the LORD [was] not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.


It's not audible like you hear someone beside you but I can hear Him inside my head if I ask Him a question.

I have to be calm and relaxed too, if there is too much going on around me, I get no reply.

God bless.

 

[michaelvpardo]

[SIZE=10pt]4 [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]and judgment was committed to them.[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]This is the raptured church. WHEN did they get into heaven? See Rev. 7.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]The pre-trib rapture and these verses both can't be true. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]If this is not the church, then the church doesn't live and reign with Christ during the millenium...[/SIZE]

Of course it is true: there are TWO groups of people here. You focused on the second group that got beheaded. The bride is the first group. The church is there and they DO reign with Christ. There is NO contradiction here with pretrib. God is pretrib, so there will be no contradictions.

[SIZE=10.5pt]I've heard John MacArthur, a scholar for whom I hold great respect, try to explain away these verses by making the first resurrection a resurrection of the just which occurs in multiple stages, but if that were true, then there are two separate groups of saints, the tribulation saints who live and reign with Christ, and the earlier Church saints who have mysteriously disappeared until after the millenium. This even contradicts the most prominent proof text for the false doctrine of a pre-trib rapture:[/SIZE]

I don't see your problem! I read these verses and see a perfect fit with pretrib. Perhaps you can explain more what exactly you find is the problem? I agree with MacArthur. Jesus was the first stage of the first (primary, not first in counting) resurrection. The Old testament saints that rose with Him were the next stage. The resurrection of those dead in Christ will be the next phase, then the 144000 will be caught up as the next phase. Do you think all these resurrections must happen at the same moment in time? The early church saints are the ones on thrones.

[SIZE=10.5pt]Now if the Lord would wisk away the entire church prior to the events of the rise of the anti-christ and the great tribulation, he would be unjust toward those saints who serve Him during the reign of the anti-christ, not having "delivered" them with the balance of His church[/SIZE]

WRONG! He has made a way of escape and wants ALL to take that way of escape. Whose fault is it if someone refuses? Whose falt is it if people are lukewarm? It is NOT His will that His people meet the antichrist.

[SIZE=10.5pt]All the saints are predestined to be saints, all are foreknown by God: [/SIZE]

Surely He knows everyone who will turn to Him during the 70th week. And they can still make it to heaven, IF they resist the mark and surrender their head.

[SIZE=10.5pt]Do you actually think that the Lord is going to tell the tribulation saints "Gee, I'm sorry that you guys had to be beheaded and witness the horrors of the great tribulation, because you didn't get in the boat with the rest of my saints." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Its so dumb it would be funny if there weren't so many out there decieved into believing such a thing.[/SIZE]

You will have to take this up with Him when you get to heaven. However, it is true, many will be left behind and it will be their OWN fault. Whose fault was it that Noah and his family were the ONLY people that got into the boat?

[SIZE=10.5pt]I'm sure that many of us will die during the wars, the plagues, the famines, the persecutions, and the other evil events to come and those happening now, and in that way will be kept from the temptation to deny the Lord, but I'm also reasonably sure that I've been called to be a witness of the judgement, which would be difficult if I'm not here. [/SIZE]

Yet, God has offered you a way of escape. Why would God offer a way of escape if His will was you be here? The ONLY people He has called to be here are the two witnesses. You can TAKE His escape plan. That is, if you can only believe it.

[SIZE=10.5pt]We like to divorse ourselves from professing Christians guilty of "gross" sin, yet none of us is without sin and we measure by degree, starting with everyone who looks a little worse than we do. [/SIZE]

It is not wise to compare ourselves with others. The ONLY thing we need to concern ourselves with is this: are we following His plan for our lives? Are we doing what He has called US to do?

[SIZE=10.5pt]But we aren't destined for wrath (at least not eternal wrath): WE are not destined for His wrath, that is certain![/SIZE]

Lamad

Thanks for your opinion Lamad, but I'll stick with scripture and trust in God's word.
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body[a] they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain. Isaiah 26:19-21

 

[iamlamad]

Thanks for your opinion Lamad, but I'll stick with scripture and trust in God's word.
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body[a] they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain. Isaiah 26:19-21

So what part of what I wrote did you disagree with? Isaiah is painting a very accurate picture of the pretrib rapture.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

That Isaiah 26 section is simply about God's protection upon His believers when He strikes down the wicked and Satan's host on the day of The LORD.

Isa 26:21
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.
(KJV)



But you Pre-Trib Rapture folks can't even keep to your same story (from men), because their Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine teaches a false rapture of the Church off the earth long... PRIOR to that event on the 'day of The LORD'!!!