Why the cross actually saves

[justbyfaith]

He saves them in real-time from their rejection of him and their unbelief.

You forgot to make it clear what you said is per Calvinism.

Hebrews 12:2

The Bible said it first.

How does Hebrews 12:2 substantiate the first quote given here? Forgive me if I'm being lazy, just wanted to make your points more clear and applicable.

 

[Mjh29]

How does Hebrews 12:2 substantiate the first quote given here? Forgive me if I'm being lazy, just wanted to make your points more clear and applicable.

Jesus saves us real time from our rejection and unbelief or lack of faith. It was claimed that this was an invention of Calvinism, when it clearly states in Hebrews 12:2 that Christ is indeed the Author and Finisher of our faith.

 

[CoreIssue]

Hebrews 12:2

The Bible said it first.

Calvin said it.

 

[CoreIssue]

How does Hebrews 12:2 substantiate the first quote given here? Forgive me if I'm being lazy, just wanted to make your points more clear and applicable.

It does not substantiate Calvinism.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus saves us real time from our rejection and unbelief or lack of faith. It was claimed that this was an invention of Calvinism, when it clearly states in Hebrews 12:2 that Christ is indeed the Author and Finisher of our faith.

The reality is that if someone continues in unbelief or rejection of Christ, they will not be saved; for the entrance into salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.

But it appears that Calvinism, in a roundabout way, seeks to undermine the entering into salvation by teaching that the way in is not by faith but that a man enters in and then receives faith...thus teaching us that faith is not necessary for salvation but that it is the sure result of salvation. It sounds plausible but is not biblical; for the biblical view is that salvation is by grace through faith; that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life; that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. It is shown as cause and effect: the cause: that a man believes and calls on the name of the Lord: the effect: he shall be saved by grace unto everlasting life. This is also from the perspective of foreknowledge; in that God chose us before we chose Him knowing that we would choose Him when given the opportunity, if all of the circumstances presented themselves in such a way that we might respond to the gospel message, He knew that we would choose Him and not reject Him and planned things out accordingly.

 

[Dave L]

Which means...what?

It seems to me to be an irrelevant statement as concerning what we are discussing.

Here's how the cross actually saves. Here's a simple analogy. God tested the human race in Adam under perfect conditions with no distractions. Adam flunked the test showing us to be a corrupt species. (Romans 5 paraphrased). God in his mercy arbitrarily scooped up a handful of rejects in his love and redeemed them, completely paying for their sins himself. Becoming incarnate in a perfect human body and soul. Based on this, he regards the redeemed as no longer liable to punishment for their sins. You cannot be punished twice for the same sins which included all of them. So they do not live in sin and go to heaven, he then gives them a new birth of the Spirit that loves him and longs after righteousness. Upon hearing the gospel, these believe and repent, living a life of holiness. You know you are among these if you believe in Jesus as defined by scripture.

 

[Mjh29]

The reality is that if someone continues in unbelief or rejection of Christ, they will not be saved; for the entrance into salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.

But it appears that Calvinism, in a roundabout way, seeks to undermine the entering into salvation by teaching that the way in is not by faith but that a man enters in and then receives faith...thus teaching us that faith is not necessary for salvation but that it is the sure result of salvation. It sounds plausible but is not biblical; for the biblical view is that salvation is by grace through faith; that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life; that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. It is shown as cause and effect: the cause: that a man believes and calls on the name of the Lord: the effect: he shall be saved by grace unto everlasting life. This is also from the perspective of foreknowledge; in that God chose us before we chose Him knowing that we would choose Him when given the opportunity, if all of the circumstances presented themselves in such a way that we might respond to the gospel message, He knew that we would choose Him and not reject Him and planned things out accordingly.

You said it yourself. By grace, not by faith. You say that it is not Biblical, and then quote one of many Scriptures that proves that it is not only plausible but Biblical. If a man does not have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, it is because it has not been given to him by the Spirit. I did not say that faith is not essential, I said that it is not the determining factor in your salvation. As far as I have seen, you may say that your problem is that we don't believe faith is necessary, but from your posts your actual problem is that faith is not what does the saving. Faith is a gift of God; no man can have faith apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:8-9
Philippians 1:29
2 Timothy 2:25-26

Faith is given by the Spirit; it is a gift of the Lord. Faith given to a regenerated heart and the application of the Blood of Christ by the Spirit is what saves.

Romans 8:14
1 Corinthians 2:10-13
1 Corinthians 6:11
1 Corinthians 12:3
2 Corinthians 3:6
1 Peter 1:1-2
John 5:21
Ephesians 2:1
Ephesians 2:5
Colossians 2:13

Faith is necessary for salvation, yes. But it does not come from man. You make it out that we believe that faith is totally useless, but in reality I think that you know as much as I do that your real problem with this doctrine is not faith; it is where it comes from. You believe it comes solely from the hearts of wicked men, giving them a stake in their salvation; we believe that it comes solely from God and is a gift from Him. No one denied the need for faith. We denied that his faith is a product of the heart of fallen man.

 

[Mjh29]

Calvin said it.

I was not aware that Calvin wrote Hebrews 12:2

 

[Mjh29]

It does not substantiate Calvinism.

I gave you a plethora of verses that do substantiate the claims when I went through Romans 8 verse by verse. Have yet to get a response though.

That's fine though.

 

[justbyfaith]

I did not say that faith is not essential, I said that it is not the determining factor in your salvation.

If faith is essential, how is it not a determining factor in our salvation?

 

[Mjh29]

If faith is essential, how is it not a determining factor in our salvation?

Air, water, and food are all essential. Which is the determining factor for life?

We need Faith, but it is not the determining factor. The determining factor for Spiritual life is Grace, without which we could have no faith.

Again, the problem you seem to have and display in your posts and replies is not that we believe faith is necessary, but rather:

1.) That this faith does not come from us and us alone. We attribute our faith to God, while you say it is man's gift to God.
2.) That this faith is not actually what does the saving, The Holy Spirit applying this gift of faith to our hearts is. Again, we believe God gives the faith, while you believe man conjures it up.

The problem seems to be quite simple; you are claiming we believe faith is not important because we refuse to say it comes all from us, not because we deny faith.

If we were denying the thing called faith, or saying it is inconsequential, you may have had a valid point. But that is not what we are saying at all. We are saying it is essential to being a Christian, but is not the thing that actually saves the Christian. It is the tool used by the one who actually does the saving, which is God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Again, we believe God gives the faith, while you believe man conjures it up.

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I believe that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17.

If we were denying the thing called faith, or saying it is inconsequential, you may have had a valid point. But that is not what we are saying at all.

It is what you are implying. In saying that grace comes first, you are saying that faith isn't necessary as a catalyst for entering into grace.

 

[Dave L]

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I believe that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17.



It is what you are implying. In saying that grace comes first, you are saying that faith isn't necessary as a catalyst for entering into grace.

“through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.” (Romans 5:2)

Faith is the gateway into grace. It is not grace we are entering if it comes from us. It would be the gateway into works instead.

 

[Mjh29]

Now you are putting words in my mouth. I believe that "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17.



It is what you are implying. In saying that grace comes first, you are saying that faith isn't necessary as a catalyst for entering into grace.

Ok, so you believe that the ability to hear comes from God, making His operation [the operation of the Holy spirit] the catalyst, not your faith. Luke 8:10 states that the ability to hear the word comes from God. It is easy to have correct theology when you simply use Scriptures. And yet, your very next quote shows that you believe the opposite of the verse you quoted. Faith is necessary, but it is not the catalyst. Christ is.

Hebrews 12:2

He is the author [creator, originator] and finisher of our faith. You say we are the authors and finishers. Christ is the true catalyst. The work of the holy spirit is what changes the hearts to have faith.

 

[bbyrd009]

Apostle Paul so succinctly wrote this Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.[1 Corinthians 15:1-4]

We can see the gospel clearly expressed in these four vss. We can see the cross in this passage as Paul wrote that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. It was even prophesied what type of death He would have when it was written Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.” And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.[Numbers 21:8-9] We can read of the "Suffering Servant" in Isaiah and know that His death was not any run-of-the-mill death, but a most gruesome death. We can also read And one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will say, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’[Zechariah 13:6] He was even betrayed by one He called 'friend'.[Matthew 26:50]

The reason why we speak of the cross is because the cross is where the payment for His sheep's sins were paid. Without an empty tomb, the cross is null and void. But without the cross, there is no empty tomb, either. We have to get the gospel right, because if we fail to get that right, the rest of our theology is off. That is why we need to see a Trinity in view in the scriptures. It took God to become a man to redeem us. If man could have redeemed us, the Christ wasted His time dying. If the Christ was this good moral man who later became the Messiah, then His sacrifice is useless as well. God could have done that with the likes of Aaron, Moses, David, Solomon, Samson, Eleazer, if that were the case. It took God to become a man to live a sinless, perfect life, live a life that fulfilled every requirement the Law demanded be lived. No created being could do this. It took God to come in the flesh.

Now focusing in on the cross. The cross was where our sin debt was paid in full. There is nothing we can add to this cross. It was God the Son being imputed His sheep's sins,[2 Corinthians 5:21] standing before His Father as our Sinbearer, taking God's wrath, dying our death, atoning for our sins, and raising from the tomb for our justification.[Romans 4:25]. This is a Triune God at work in man's redemption. The only thing His sheep brought to this was their sins that had been laid upon Him. God the Son took God the Father's wrath, so that God the Holy Spirit could now fully come unto the elect. If the cross was for everybody, and everybody was not saved, then the cross, in and of itself, did not save them. That is why we, the Calvinists, can proclaim a cross that has a 100% success rate. The cross was for His sheep, His life He lived and gave, was for His sheep, His resurrection was for His sheep, His intercession is for His sheep, and His second advent is for His sheep.

More steps on that ladder, ok. Good start though imo
Paul and Succinctly do not really go together, I don't think
Peter doesn't think, either, I guess.

No Son of Man may die for...
Ah, I guess you've heard all this already, declined to hear it I mean...
So, um, keep looking up!
I guess

 

[justbyfaith]

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

 

[justbyfaith]

Ok, so you believe that the ability to hear comes from God, making His operation [the operation of the Holy spirit] the catalyst, not your faith. Luke 8:10 states that the ability to hear the word comes from God. It is easy to have correct theology when you simply use Scriptures. And yet, your very next quote shows that you believe the opposite of the verse you quoted. Faith is necessary, but it is not the catalyst. Christ is.

Hebrews 12:2

He is the author [creator, originator] and finisher of our faith. You say we are the authors and finishers. Christ is the true catalyst. The work of the holy spirit is what changes the hearts to have faith.

Without faith there can be no salvation.

 

[Dave L]

Without faith there can be no salvation.

Infants and imbeciles die and got to heaven without faith. Those in comas and some beyond the reach of the gospel also.

 

[farouk]

Jesus completely paid for our sins. In the sense we cannot be held liable. It is as though God executed us for them in Christ and we cannot be tried for the same crime twice. This includes the sin of unbelief and rejecting him. So unless you limit the atonement to the elect, which the bible does, all will be saved.

"Payment God will not twice demand,
First at my bleeding Surety's hand,
And then again at mine..."

 

[justbyfaith]

Infants and imbeciles die and got to heaven without faith. Those in comas and some beyond the reach of the gospel also.

Their judgment, when they stand before the Lord, will be based on their reaction to the Person and Presence of Jesus Christ.