Why the fall had to occur

[bbyrd009]

so I flush it down the toilet where it belongs and give real clear cut answers.

nice. imo it doesn't hurt to admit that the answer is not known by anyone, either

 

[bbyrd009]

Again, who cares what the atheist thinks. He doesn't believe anything you say anyway.

they believe everything i tell them, Stranger, wadr i don't know what you are even talking about now. i just know better than to say certain things that amount to unsubstantiated personal beliefs, and are not salvational anyway

 

[Stranger]

they believe everything i tell them, Stranger, wadr i don't know what you are even talking about now. i just know better than to say certain things that amount to unsubstantiated personal beliefs, and are not salvational anyway

Well, they are not only atheists...but fools. jfgw

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, they are not only atheists...but fools. jfgw

Stranger

ah ok, nevermind all that "judge not" jazz huh

 

[Stranger]

ah ok, nevermind all that "judge not" jazz huh

Thats right. kfhj krhb

Stranger

 

[Dcopymope]

nice. imo it doesn't hurt to admit that the answer is not known by anyone, either

I know that God being the author of logic wouldn't want me giving logically inconsistent explanations for the faith to unbelievers, especially for those asking certain questions because some of them are looking for a reason NOT to believe, and the answers given for these questions tend to be half-baked at best, and more or less circular in its reasoning. Maybe I should have put this thread in the apologetic's forum, because while what I have said isn't clearly stated in scripture, it does provide the perfect answer for the toughest questions in defense of the faith. I guess the moderators can do this.

 

[n2thelight]

So why did the temptation of Adam and Eve have to happen? I have been asked this question plenty of times before by both unbelievers and believers alike, and was never able to give an answer for it. But it wasn't until Aspen asked the same type of questions in the link below that it suddenly clicked in me, just hit me like a ton of bricks.

Link: Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer

Link: Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer

The question often varies from one person to another. Some may ask why God put the tree in the garden if he didn't want them eating from it in the first place. Others may ask why God allows suffering to occur if he is such a gentle spirit, and if the suffering of this current world will pass away and not even cross our mind as Isaiah stated, then what was the point in God sending us through the tribulations of this current world in the first place?



I answer these questions in a way that I have yet to see being answered anywhere else, and made a six minute YouTube video about it just for the hell of it. They are the types of questions most Christians have a hard time answering. I've given the same answer to unbelievers and they seem to be receiving it pretty well, more or less, so the way I see it, this is the only way you can answer it.

The fall happened before Adam and Eve

 

[Dcopymope]

The fall happened before Adam and Eve

If you are referring to the fall of Satan, then of course, yes. I use his fall as a major part of my argument.

 

[mjrhealth]

The reason why mankind had to fall, is simple...Love. Try explain love to an angel, try explain love to one who has never being forgiven,

Love is why we where created, love is why we are here, love is why Jesus went to the cross, love is why the earth was created, everything about God is Love.

 

[bbyrd009]

because some of them are looking for a reason NOT to believe

ok, well all that will get you all the way to "God's nonsense" i guess, but imo logic and "hate your life" are pretty hard to reconcile

 

[Dcopymope]

The reason why mankind had to fall, is simple...Love. Try explain love to an angel, try explain love to one who has never being forgiven,

Love is why we where created, love is why we are here, love is why Jesus went to the cross, love is why the earth was created, everything about God is Love.

I wanted you to fall because I love you.....

......Sounds more like something you would hear out of the mouth of an abusive spouse than out of a God you all often claim to love his creation 'unconditionally'. I slap you around because I love you is what this is akin to. Yes, love is the reason why we exist, love is why Jesus went to the cross, but is his "love" the reason why many will get tossed into the lake of fire regardless? It's another logically inconsistent argument that will not fly with certain unbelievers with their thinking caps set to full power.

 

[mjrhealth]

I wanted you to fall because I love you.....

......Sounds more like something you would hear out of the mouth of an abusive spouse than out of a God you all often claim to love his creation 'unconditionally'. I slap you around because I love you is what this is akin to. Yes, love is the reason why we exist, love is why Jesus went to the cross, but is his "love" the reason why many will get tossed into the lake of fire regardless? It's another logically inconsistent argument that will not fly with certain unbelievers with their thinking caps set to full power.

Completely missed it, havnt you.???
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
Now do you understand. People going to the lake of fire is the choice of men, not Gods, I
Offer you life or death, choose life, is it so hard

 

[101G]

So why did the temptation of Adam and Eve have to happen? I have been asked this question plenty of times before by both unbelievers and believers alike, and was never able to give an answer for it. But it wasn't until Aspen asked the same type of questions in the link below that it suddenly clicked in me, just hit me like a ton of bricks.

Link: Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer

Link: Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer

The question often varies from one person to another. Some may ask why God put the tree in the garden if he didn't want them eating from it in the first place. Others may ask why God allows suffering to occur if he is such a gentle spirit, and if the suffering of this current world will pass away and not even cross our mind as Isaiah stated, then what was the point in God sending us through the tribulations of this current world in the first place?



I answer these questions in a way that I have yet to see being answered anywhere else, and made a six minute YouTube video about it just for the hell of it. They are the types of questions most Christians have a hard time answering. I've given the same answer to unbelievers and they seem to be receiving it pretty well, more or less, so the way I see it, this is the only way you can answer it.

Addressing the OP. not saying that any are right or wrong, but consider this. scripture, Romans 8:19 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God".

PCY

 

[Dcopymope]

Completely missed it, havnt you.???
43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
Now do you understand. People going to the lake of fire is the choice of men, not Gods, I
Offer you life or death, choose life, is it so hard

(Luke 7:43) "Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged."

I don't see what this has to do with a man's "choice" to get tossed in the fire, looks like you just adding onto the scripture that was never there. Actually it is 100% the choice of God who goes and who doesn't, he is the one who will judge each soul according to their WORKS, not according to what they believed, because that's what makes God a true God of justice. Read carefully, in case you should miss the entire point of the throne judgement......again.

(Revelation 20:12) "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

 

[Dcopymope]

Addressing the OP. not saying that any are right or wrong, but consider this. scripture, Romans 8:19 "For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God".

PCY

Exactly, the scripture doesn't show me to be right or wrong. Unbelievers have had a field day with verses like this. For the sake of argument in defense of God himself, this scripture can just as easily bolster my argument. On the surface, God making man to be subject unto vanity would contradict what was stated in the very first chapter stating the six day creation to be "very good" in his eyes. On the surface, one could not reconcile the creation being made unto vanity with something "good" or "perfect in thy ways", until you realize that what was "very good" was destined to fall into vanity to begin with, no matter what. It didn't matter how "perfect" or "good" God made Satan or Adam and Eve, sin is an ever present disease and God knew that it was rearing its ugly head sooner or later in heaven and earth. His antidote, his ever lasting cure for this disease is Jesus Christ.

 

[mjrhealth]

I don't see what this has to do with a man's "choice" to get tossed in the fire, looks like you just adding onto the scripture that was never there. Actually it is 100% the choice of God who goes and who doesn't, he is the one who will judge each soul according to their WORKS, not according to what they believed, because that's what makes God a true God of justice. Read carefully, in case you should miss the entire point of the throne judgement......again.

What dont you understand, who do you think God is. We all have choice, to believe God and trust in Him, or do our own thing, that, "choose life". Dont put your hand in the fire you wil get burnt, no listening, not listening, mummy, mummy i burnt myself. Choice, we all have it.

 

[Dcopymope]

What dont you understand, who do you think God is. We all have choice, to believe God and trust in Him, or do our own thing, that, "choose life". Dont put your hand in the fire you wil get burnt, no listening, not listening, mummy, mummy i burnt myself. Choice, we all have it.

I know full well what you are saying. It doesn't apply to the throne judgement, so its irrelevant, because there will be plenty of souls to the tune of billions who never had a chance to "choose life" in God. That's why it says nothing about the judgement being about their beliefs. You will either "choose life" and become the bride of Christ, or you won't, and be judged according to your works instead, its as simple as that, no matter how much you want to believe the contrary.

 

[pia]

Actually it is 100% the choice of God who goes and who doesn't

So what happened to :" It is not Gods will that any man perish" ?

 

[Dcopymope]

So what happened to :" It is not Gods will that any man perish" ?

You left out the part "but that all may come to repentance". The throne judgement will not be a time for repentance, it will be too late for that. At that point, you're just going to stand there and shut your pie hole so that God can get to work. The lake of fire was never meant for humanity, but as a place prepared for the devil and his angel gang. So those that do get thrown in have well and truly earned it. Revelation spells out for us who gets tossed in, unbelievers being chief among them.

(Revelation 21:8) "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

On the surface, this may seem to be referring to every single soul that are not of the bride of Christ, since they aren't believers, but when you look deeper, its really not as black and white or as simple as many Christians have made it out to be, as there are still gentile nations even in the new earth.

(Revelation 21:24-27) "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. {25} And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. {26} And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. {27} And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

This is who the tree of life is for, for the "healing of the nations", not for the bride of Christ of Jerusalem.

(Revelation 22:2) "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

So these unbelievers cannot be referring to all that are not of his bride, but specifically to those who heard the gospel yet rejected it, otherwise there wouldn't be any 'nations' left to begin with. It is made clear throughout scripture that it will be those specific 'unbelievers' that God will not at all be too pleased with when the time comes.

(Matthew 10:5-15) "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: {6} But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. {7} And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. {8} Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. {9} Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, {10} Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. {11} And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. {12} And when ye come into an house, salute it. {13} And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. {14} And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. {15} Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

Jesus Christ is quite clear on this, it will be more tolerable for unbelieving sinners who never heard the gospel in the day of judgement than it will be for those who have heard it and rejected it.

 

[bbyrd009]

those who have heard it and rejected it.

"Nehushtan worshippers."