Why the fall had to occur

[7angels]

i am curious if everything God creates is good and perfect then why would we need fall away? wouldn't that mean God made an inferior man and had to remake him again by Christ dying? if this is true then God cannot know all things if He could not see and fix thing which was wrong from the beginning.

this belief saying the fall had to occur leads to many insights on how God is not a perfect God. for example if God is all knowing and created us to fall away from Him then God created an imperfect being(isn't God perfect?). an imperfect being cannot be perfect(so scripture lies).
another example, you say that adam and eve, lucifer, and ect were all pure beings were meant to fall because sin will be found in them somewhere(your video about 3:54)even though they were created perfect and sinless. since God is a pure spirit being then God should also eventually fall too according to your reasoning.

your study was well thought out but you need to take into account God's character and personality. knowing how a person will act and react in any situations will greatly increase your knowledge about that person. the only mistake i see in you main argument was that it was your view of why God did something without considering it from if you were God with all His attributes and character how would you do it.

God bless

 

[Dcopymope]

i am curious if everything God creates is good and perfect then why would we need fall away? wouldn't that mean God made an inferior man and had to remake him again by Christ dying? if this is true then God cannot know all things if He could not see and fix thing which was wrong from the beginning.

this belief saying the fall had to occur leads to many insights on how God is not a perfect God. for example if God is all knowing and created us to fall away from Him then God created an imperfect being(isn't God perfect?). an imperfect being cannot be perfect(so scripture lies).

another example, you say that adam and eve, lucifer, and ect were all pure beings were meant to fall because sin will be found in them somewhere(your video about 3:54)even though they were created perfect and sinless.

since God is a pure spirit being then God should also eventually fall too according to your reasoning.

Its not that we needed to fall, its just that God saw that the fall was coming. When it says Satan was made perfect, it says he was made perfect in HIS ways, but not perfect like God. Being a pure spirit being doesn't make you pure like God. When God saw all he had made in six days and said it was "very good", he didn't mean very good like himself as if Adam and Eve wouldn't fall into temptation. God isn't just a pure spirit being, God is much more than that. God is light, and in him there is no darkness. Therefore it isn't possible for God to fall by reason of his very nature. If it was possible, then you wouldn't have scripture stating that Jesus never knew sin to begin with, yet he took sin upon himself as atonement.

your study was well thought out but you need to take into account God's character and personality. knowing how a person will act and react in any situations will greatly increase your knowledge about that person. the only mistake i see in you main argument was that it was your view of why God did something without considering it from if youcomingGod with all His attributes and character how would you do it.

God bless

If I was God, how would I do it? I would do it exactly like God did it because it is the only way. Why is it the only way? Simple, it's because it was the only way that sin as a tangible threat or as a disease would ever be eliminated. You are not perfect and sinless like God because you were made perfect, nor will this be the case when we optain our glorified bodies.

We are made sinless and perfect in Gods eyes because of Jesus Christ who destroyed sin now and forever. Just think of Jesus Christ as the immune system for your soul, as a defense against sin. Thats why God allowed the fall to occur, and why things must occur as they have and will. You need to realize this and just trust that God knew exactly what he was doing. God didn't make a mistake when he made us.

 

[Helen]

The problem is that the real clear cut answer is never pointed out. It rubs me the wrong way, because it is by this misunderstanding of end times events that God is made out to be some inept despotic douche bag in the eyes of the world. It is why I cannot stand hell fire preaching, it needs to be flushed down the damn toilet where it belongs. The gentile nations are healed by the tree of life, while the saints are healed by the blood of Jesus, which disproves the generally held belief that only the bride gets into the new heaven and earth.

Good one...I like that

 

[bbyrd009]

Now what is the second death bbyrd009?

what? is not even the right question there, wadr, i don't question the what. the right question is when? imo

and bam believe what you like, but if you find yourself at odds with any other Scripture, i would pause and reflect at least
and i guess i could give you ten here

 

[Dcopymope]

what? is not even the right question there, wadr, i don't question the what. the right question is when? imo

and bam believe what you like, but if you find yourself at odds with any other Scripture, i would pause and reflect at least
and i guess i could give you ten here

You are questioning "the what" since "in your opinion" there isn't a literal place of fire where the wicked will be sent. If all you have is your opinion, and you can't back it up with scripture, then its best you keep your opinions to yourself and not make the faith look like foolishnesses, especially around unbeliever's God forbid. This is called the 'apologetics' forum for a reason.

 

[bbyrd009]

i am curious if everything God creates is good and perfect then why would we need fall away? wouldn't that mean God made an inferior man and had to remake him again by Christ dying? if this is true then God cannot know all things if He could not see and fix thing which was wrong from the beginning.

this belief saying the fall had to occur leads to many insights on how God is not a perfect God. for example if God is all knowing and created us to fall away from Him then God created an imperfect being(isn't God perfect?). an imperfect being cannot be perfect(so scripture lies).
another example, you say that adam and eve, lucifer, and ect were all pure beings were meant to fall because sin will be found in them somewhere(your video about 3:54)even though they were created perfect and sinless. since God is a pure spirit being then God should also eventually fall too according to your reasoning.

your study was well thought out but you need to take into account God's character and personality. knowing how a person will act and react in any situations will greatly increase your knowledge about that person. the only mistake i see in you main argument was that it was your view of why God did something without considering it from if you were God with all His attributes and character how would you do it.

God bless

nice. The perspective of "Fall" is written from the same perspective as "the bed is too narrow, the blanket is too short," and no Fall can actually be demonstrated anywhere else.

but of course if you dig a pit for someone else, you end up in it yourself
is generally understood to require a literal shovel, too, i guess
arg

 

[bbyrd009]

You are questioning the what since "in your opinion" there isn't a literal place of fire where the wicked will be sent.

ah, well, i didn't say that exactly, but meant that my understanding does not clash with other Scripture that we are not even considering right now, and yours does wadr.

If all you have is your opinion, and you can't back it up with scripture, then its best you keep your opinions to yourself and not make the faith look like foolishnesses, especially around unbeliever's God forbid. This is called the 'apologetics' forum for a reason.

funny, i was trying to warn you of the same thing lol
ah, well, you picked this thread to unravel, instead of

and i guess i could give you ten here

so i see where this is going already, and being your thread i'll just say bye then

 

[Dcopymope]

ah, well, i didn't say that exactly, but meant that my understanding does not clash with other Scripture that we are not even considering right now, and yours does wadr.
funny, i was trying to warn you of the same thing lol
ah, well, you picked this thread to unravel, instead of

so i see where this is going already, and being your thread i'll just say bye then

If what I said was clearly against anything stated in scripture, then I would have never bothered making a thread about it to begin with. I have yet to see anyone come up with anything in scripture clearly showing what I have said to be un-scriptural here or anywhere else, so your warnings are null and void.

 

[Dcopymope]

ya, most warnings are i guess

Well, then why even bother giving it to me? This is the word of God we are talking about. How about you go get "caught up in the spirit" like you often claim you do and actually get your warnings against what I am saying from God himself. Only than would your warnings actually have a foundation to stand on. Without God, your warnings are akin to nothing more than someone crying wolf.

 

[bbyrd009]

If what I said was clearly against anything stated in scripture, then I would have never bothered making a thread about it to begin with.

ha course not, you are doing God's will, right

I have yet to see anyone come up with anything in scripture clearly showing what I have said to be un-scriptural here or anywhere else, so your warnings are null and void.

ya, i guess most warnings are all right

note that i offered twice tho, k

 

[Dcopymope]

ha course not, you are doing God's will, right
ya, i guess most warnings are all right

note that i offered twice tho, k

Offered what? Empty words?

 

[mjrhealth]

You never bothered actually reading revelation at all have you? Its no wonder why many Christians have a hard telling you what it means to be saved, they can't even tell you what you are saved from, they can only repeat the typical buzz word "I'm saved by the blood of Jesus".

The book of revelation was Jesus revelation given to John, its not yours and it is not mine, you will never get understanding reading it, revelation comes from God alone, Why people think that studying teh bible can give then revelation and understanding I dont know, there is a whole thread elsewhere tearing apart all the incorrect translation of words in it.

Luk_10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

When a man thinks he is so smart, he should go stand before teh Lord, than he will soon realise how foolish he is and how little he knows.

 

[Dcopymope]

The book of revelation was Jesus revelation given to John, its not yours and it is not mine, you will never get understanding reading it, revelation comes from God alone, Why people think that studying teh bible can give then revelation and understanding I dont know, there is a whole thread elsewhere tearing apart all the incorrect translation of words in it.

Luk_10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

When a man thinks he is so smart, he should go stand before teh Lord, than he will soon realise how foolish he is and how little he knows.

First of all, I never claimed it to be MY revelation. I'm pointing out the plainly stated facts that, if you believe yourself to be led by the holy ghost, you should be able to see yourself. I'll tell you the same thing I've told everyone else. Go get "caught up in the spirit", talk to God yourself like you claim you did to see if I am wrong, otherwise you have nothing to say to me. Beyond this, I really could care less if you are led by the holy ghost. Anybody can claim they have the holy ghost.

 

[mjrhealth]

First of all, I never claimed it to be MY revelation. I'm pointing out the plainly stated facts that, if you believe yourself to be led by the holy ghost, you should be able to see yourself. I'll tell you the same thing I've told everyone else. Go get "caught up in the spirit", talk to God yourself like you claim you did to see if I am wrong, otherwise you have nothing to say to me. Beyond this, I really could care less if you are led by the holy ghost. Anybody can claim they have the holy ghost.

And you can see those who dont. And by teh way I never said you did, , the more "learned" a man becomes the harder it is for God to teach him. Saul was a good example.. God is not interested in ",mens" opinions, there is truth and lie, and being led by teh HS does not make one perfect "yet". Its an adventure.

 

[Dcopymope]

And you can see those who dont. And by teh way I never said you did, , the more "learned" a man becomes the harder it is for God to teach him. Saul was a good example.. God is not interested in ",mens" opinions, there is truth and lie, and being led by teh HS does not make one perfect "yet". Its an adventure.

I'm not the one making this about the holy ghost. If you wish to keep bringing it up in the discussion, then actually make it mean something regarding the subject of this thread. Thus far I have been given nothing worth while.

 

[mjrhealth]

I'm not the one making this about the holy ghost. If you wish to keep bringing it up in the discussion, then actually make it mean something and regarding the subject of this thread. Thus far I have been given nothing worth while.

Was not me that brought it up as far as I am aware, who do you think God is, in the OT He is this SOD murdering people, babies, wiping out nation than Jesus comes along, wouldnt hurt a fly, showing us who God is. God set a p[lace for the devil, not His choosing, God gave us choice, what happens to us in the end, is our choosing. I offer you life and death choose life, can He help it that men would rather choose death, there are even some on these forums who already have. God made us a way, but men choose there own.

 

[Dcopymope]

Was not me that brought it up as far as I am aware, who do you think God is, in the OT He is this SOD murdering people, babies, wiping out nation than Jesus comes along, wouldnt hurt a fly, showing us who God is. God set a p[lace for the devil, not His choosing, God gave us choice, what happens to us in the end, is our choosing. I offer you life and death choose life, can He help it that men would rather choose death, there are even some on these forums who already have. God made us a way, but men choose there own.

Jesus would never hurt a fly? Well, I'm pretty sure that's a misnomer as well.

(John 2:13-17) "¶ And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, {14} And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: {15} And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; {16} And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise. {17} And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up."

Even Jesus Christ while on earth had a tipping point, the guy broke out a whip for Christs sake. Mind you, this was the only instance of him getting violent, not counting Revelation of course, when he really starts putting in work. What about the holy ghost?

(Acts 5:1-5) "But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, {2} And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. {3} But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? {4} Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. {5} And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

You see, even in the new testament, God wasn't screwing around. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. I take great comfort in knowing he hasn't grown soft just because we are in the age of grace.

 

[mjrhealth]

You see, even in the new testament, God wasn't screwing around. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. I take great comfort in knowing he hasn't grown soft just because we are in the age of grace.

You still keep blaming God, it was there "choosing" not Gods, this mess we live in is "our" choosing not Gods. where we go after is "our" choosing not Gods. He offered us a way, He will not "force" anyone to choose it, as for Jesus, he drove them out, didnt "beat" them to death. We have choice, thats why we fell, God desired to prove His love to9 us, there is no other way to do it. You could never explain Love to an angel, who was created for a purpose and never being forgiven.

 

[Dcopymope]

You still keep blaming God, it was there "choosing" not Gods, this mess we live in is "our" choosing not Gods. where we go after is "our" choosing not Gods. He offered us a way, He will not "force" anyone to choose it, as for Jesus, he drove them out, didnt "beat" them to death. We have choice, thats why we fell, God desired to prove His love to9 us, there is no other way to do it. You could never explain Love to an angel, who was created for a purpose and never being forgiven.

M'kay, and what does this have at all to do with God putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden to start with, the tree he told them not to eat from? Was the tree being there Gods doing, or was it "ours"? Do you really believe that your argument is going to fly with any unbeliever asking the same questions? And yes, he didn't beat them to death, but it was no idol threat either, he went in swinging, flipping over tables.

 

[mjrhealth]

M'kay, and what does this have at all to do with God putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden to start with, the tree he told them not to eat from? Was the tree being there Gods doing, or was it "ours"? Do you really believe that your argument is going to fly with any unbeliever asking the same questions? And yes, he didn't beat them to death, but it was no idol threat either, he went in swinging, flipping over tables.

Was it not Adams choice to Eat from the tree???, was that Gods doing ???? And what threat, HE told them that the house of God was for prayer and men turned it into a den of thieves, whats changed, its still the same. Mens churches filled with buyers and sellers, no different than it was.