Why the Mass, Eucharist, & "Holy" Communion Is Evil

[Christ4Me]

Christ4Me imagines that knowledge of Greek is irrelevant to exegetical understanding and thus pontificates without bothering to consult academic book commentaries on the Fourth Gospel. So he doesn't realize that Jesus bread of life discourse (6:25-42) interprets the "sign" of the Feeding of the 5,000 (6:1-15) and that this provides a nice segway to the discussion of Holy Communion in 6:53-58.

I do not agree with everything CARM says but I agree with this video in regards to why water baptism is not a requirement for salvation. The point about adding a ritual to obtaining salvation also applies to how you are including "holy" communion for.

(1) The only sense in which biblical theology interprets the image of drinking Jesus' blood is drinking the Communion cup which symbolizes Jesus' shed blood. He is unable to point to any text that offers a different interpretation. Thus, he violates the standard principle that biblical imagery should be interpreted by biblical precedent.

You agreed that Jesus was talking about how believing in Him is how we are saved when the Jews had asked Him to give them this bread of life that gives life to the world but you seem to think He had stopped talking about that Good News when it comes to John 6:53-58 even though in verse 58, He had said this receiving was not like how their fathers had done in eating manna in the desert, thus deferring from actually eating. And then you seem to think He switched back to the earlier topic when speaking directly to His disciples afterwards. He did not. Jesus was still speaking in regards to the gospel that whole time, including John 6:53-58 as verse 58 proves that it is not about eating.

(2) His ignorance of Greek forces him to bypass in icy silence the Greek word "trogo" used to refer to eating Jesus' flesh. "Trogo" means "munch on" as in munching on Communion bread, making any other interpretation pointless.

Yet you refer John 6:53-58 as imagery but fail to recognize that his munching is done by believing in Him & not by actual eating; hence imagery.

Did not Jesus address that same topic afterwards to His disciples that were having a hard time hearing Him? Then He switched from His crucifixion to His ascension and that it is His words that brings life, what words are they? The words about how to receive this bread of life by believing in Him is how they receive eternal life.

(3) He understandably ducks the point that 6:53-58 is the reason why John is shockingly the only Gospel to omit Jesus' words on the meaning of Holy Communion in its Last Supper discourse (John 13). The obvious explanation is that John has already treated Communion symbolism in 6:53-58. On Christ4Me's reckoning, John seems anti-sacramental!

John is not referring to communion in John 6th chapter at all because Jesus was not referring to it.

(4) He ducks the offense that causes Jesus Communion language to drive many of His disciples away (6:66). If this language were merely theological and symbolic, He would have explained that instead of insisting, "My flesh is real food and my blood is real drink (6:55)" in the sense that regular participants in the Eucharist come to "abide in Me, and I in them (6:66)."

Again you say John 6:53-58 is imagery but instead of applying it towards not actually eating but believing in Him, you applied it to communion.

(5) Finally, his modern Fundamentalist imposition on the text ignores how this teaching was originally understood in the NT church. Both the term "Christian" and the term "Catholic" originate in the first-century Church of Antioch that was the center of the Gentile mission for Paul, Barnabas, Silas, etc. Ignatius, a first century Bishop of the Church at Antioch, calls the Communion elements "the medicine of immortality" in keeping with the teaching of John 6:53-56.

Ignatius is wrong for making communion more than it is by calling it the medicine of immortality.

He is wrong for condemning Christian false teachers because of 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 for why we are to treat them as brothers still even though we are commanded to withdraw from them per 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 in the hopes it will lead them to repentance before the Bridegroom comes.

The Fate of False Teachers.

Indeed, any one breaking even the least of His commandments & teach others so are called least in the kingdom of Heaven but still in that kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That is why there are two kinds of eternal inheritance in His House and those who go astray for building iniquity on that foundation that defiles themselves shall be left behind when the Bridegroom comes to die a physical death, but their spirits are saved and with the Lord in Heaven to wait for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, the least in the kingdom of Heaven.

Here are scripture to reprove how you & the Catholic Church applied John 6:53-58 for meaning.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The Christian brother in that video did touch on that reference in Romans 4:1-5 in sharing the truth in His works for why communion is not a ritual necessary for our salvation.

 

[Berserk]

Christ4Me: "baptism is not a requirement for salvation. The point about adding a ritual to obtaining salvation also applies to how you are including "holy" communion for."

Another example of how you, unlike informed Catholics, duck the plain meaning of Scripture. You fail to recognize the philosphical distinction between necessary and sufficient conditions. Baptism is not a sufficient condition for salvation, but Jesus and Peter both treat it as a necessary condition.

Jesus identifies both faith and baptism as necessary conditions for salvation: "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16)."
This teaching is consistent with His teaching, "No one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water [baptism] and the Spirit (John 3:5)." "Water" is never used as a term for amniotic fluid and in any case and in any case would in that sense apply to both the saved and unsalved alike! The status of baptism as a condition for salvation (so 16:16) established baptism as the referent of "born of water." Thus, Peter identifies repentance and baptism as conditions for receiving divine forgiveness: "Repent and be baptized..., so that your sins may be forgiven (Acts 2:38)."
Peter leaves no doubt about the essential redemptive role of baptism in 1 Peter 3:19: "Baptism...now saved you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as a pledge to God of a good conscience."


Christ4Me: "You agreed that Jesus was talking about how believing in Him is how we are saved when the Jews had asked Him to give them this bread of life that gives life to the world but you seem to think He had stopped talking about that Good News when it comes to John 6:53-58"

As Catholics recognize, Jesus treats baptism (see above), Holy Communion (see John 6:54), and faith as conditions for salvation. That is why first-century bishop Ignatius and the apostolic church of Antioch he represents rightly construe the teaching in 6:53-58 to imply that Holy Communion is "the medicine of immortality."

Christ4m3: "even though in verse 58, He had said this receiving was not like how their fathers had done in eating manna in the desert, thus deferring from actually eating."
You are eisegeting into the text! What Jesus means is that, unlike Communion bread, manna was never a vehicle by which believers come to "abide in Me, and I in them (so 6:56)."



Christ4Me: "Yet you refer John 6:53-58 as imagery but fail to recognize that his munching is done by believing in Him & not by actual eating; hence imagery."

Nope! The use of "trogo" implies literal "munching" in the sensing of munching on Communion bread. The imagery in no way repudiates Jesus claim that "my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink (6:55)." Jesus is telling us that His indwelling presence is reinforced through this sacramental an act and that fantastic claim is what drives many of His disciples away (6:66). readers will note that Christ4Me has repeatedly ducked my challenge to provide any biblical precedent for construing drinking Jesus' blood in any other way than the Communion cup.




Christ4Me: "John is not referring to communion in John 6th chapter at all because Jesus was not referring to it."

You must pontificate this claim without evidence because you have no answer for any of the 4 standard arguments offered for a Eucharistic interpretation of 6:53-56.



Again you say John 6:53-58 is imagery but instead of applying it towards not actually eating but believing in Him, you applied it to communion.



Ignatius is wrong for making communion more than it is by calling it the medicine of immortality.

He is wrong for condemning Christian false teachers because of 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 for why we are to treat them as brothers still even though we are commanded to withdraw from them per 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 in the hopes it will lead them to repentance before the Bridegroom comes.

The Fate of False Teachers.

Indeed, any one breaking even the least of His commandments & teach others so are called least in the kingdom of Heaven but still in that kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That is why there are two kinds of eternal inheritance in His House and those who go astray for building iniquity on that foundation that defiles themselves shall be left behind when the Bridegroom comes to die a physical death, but their spirits are saved and with the Lord in Heaven to wait for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, the least in the kingdom of Heaven.

Here are scripture to reprove how you & the Catholic Church applied John 6:53-58 for meaning.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The Christian brother in that video did touch on that reference in Romans 4:1-5 in sharing the truth in His works for why communion is not a ritual necessary for our salvation.[/QUOTE]