1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Why The Seventy Weeks Are 490 Days - To Be Interpreted As Years

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Phoneman777, May 4, 2019.

  1. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,398
    Likes Received:
    3,616
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    For Daniel those 2300 days were indeed in the distant future. But they are just a few months short of seven years (6 yrs, 4 months, 21 days), which is equal to the 70th week of Daniel, which is still in the future. And those 2300 days are connected to the Abomination of Desolation, which is connected to the temple at Jerusalem, which is connected to the Antichrist (not the pope). And there is absolutely no valid exegetical reason to convert 2300 days (evenings/mornings) into 2300 years, other than a desire to paint the papacy as the Antichrist.

    Daniel's prophecy has nothing to say about the Church Age, which intervenes between the time Messiah was cut off but not for Himself (the crucifixion) and when the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition (the Antichrist hijacks the temple at Jerusalem in the future.
     
  2. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,398
    Likes Received:
    3,616
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    When we take Revelation 13 into account, a ruler drawing political power from ten countries, but actually having a worldwide empire such as no pope has ever had. This Little Horn is an Arch-Blasphemer also (in both Daniel and Revelation).

    REVELATION 13
    And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months [3 1/2 YEARS].
    6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

    7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. [WORLDWIDE DOMINANCE]

    "Little horn" may be an allusion to this man's false humility, since as a matter of fact he is "the king of fierce countenance" and does everything "according to his own will".
     
  3. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    734
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Careful, you may be reading some atheist literature I found on the internet to cause doubt in the Bible.

    The last King of Babylon was Belshazzar, captured by Darius the Mede, under orders by Cyrus the Greek, king of Medo-Persia, but it was a different Darius, Darius III, that was ruling Medo-Persia at the time that they were overthrown by Alexander the Great. Darius III was the last king of Medo-Persia, not Babylon. But he was a coward and ran twice from Alexander the Great, so one of his own men killed him.
     
  4. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    975
    Likes Received:
    779
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    I apologise for the above statement. I'm embarrassed, I made this in error.
     
  5. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    975
    Likes Received:
    779
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Enoch, there is a valid reason, its the day for a year principle of prophecy used in scripture. Tell me why you dismiss this principle?
    What is it that you see as significant in the context of the angels explanation to Daniel by which you justify 6 odd years
     
  6. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Active Member

    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No CLAY. Of course there's a residue of Iron in the CLAY, but it's CLAY:

    Dan. 2:45 ... the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold ...

    Now one might wonder why there's a residue of Iron in the Empire of CLAY, which is easily resolved when you consider both Ancient History (~625AD) and Modern History.


    But what good is THINKING when it's such an infrequent occurrence? :)
    Bobby Jo
     
  7. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    975
    Likes Received:
    779
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    this is funny Bobby Jo. I would not have thought you would admit to this. :)
     
  8. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Active Member

    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    No Problem! It happens to the best of us! :)

    But what's even more disturbing is all the FALSE DOCTRINES which are repeated as though there were ANY MERIT. For example consider the 2,300 which has been referenced, -- YOU CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE! To start off with, the angel (12:4 & 9) declares these prophecies as END TIME. Secondly, there WAS NEVER a Dual Monarchy under Cyrus. So the Kings (plural) of Media and Persia NEVER EXISTED under the purported Medo/Persian Empire of Cyrus the Great. Additionally, Alexander's Empire was divided between FIVE Generals, -- which lasted some 40 years until Lysimachus took Antipater's Macedonia and Greece:

    Antipater taking Macedonia and Greece, Lysimachus Thrace, Antigonus Asia Minor, Selecucs Babylonea, and Ptolemy Egypt.”[1]

    [1] Durant, Will, Story of Civilization: Part I, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1954, pp. 557-558

    So all the bantering about the 2,300 is so much wasted time. However, there IS a fulfillment for Daniel's prophecies, but you need to look at Modern History for the solution. But it's apparently IMPOSSIBLE for people to discard the LIES which they have accepted, and believe the TRUTH of Scripture and History.


    Too bad,
    Bobby Jo
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,398
    Likes Received:
    3,616
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    It is right there in that passage:

    Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days [עֶ֣רֶב(e·rev)בֹּ֔קֶר (bo·ker)
    evenings and mornings]
    ; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. (Dan 8:13,14)

    The "transgression of desolation" is none other that "the abomination of desolation": And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. (Dan 11:31)

    When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains... (Mt 24:15,16)

    Now all this ties into Daniel's 70th week [a seven or a heptad in Hebrew (shabua)],which is a period of just 7 years. And it is in the midst of this period (3 1/2 years after it begins) that the abomination of desolation is made to stand in the Holy Place.

    And he [THE PRINCE THAT SHALL COME = THE ANTICHRIST] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [SEVEN YEARS]: and in the midst of the week [3 1/2 YRS] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Dan 9:27)
     
  10. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Active Member

    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    What?!? Did you think I was unaware that Rome was never conquered, but that it simply dissolved in disparate kingdoms, fifedoms, communities, and villages? And being that there was no new governmental structure to replace the old, that they would have retained the Roman Republic Senatus Populusque Romanus, “Senate and the Roman People”, exactly as most nations in the world assert they still follow? Last I checked we have a Senate and House of Representatives, and the Senators were appointed by the States (not elected) until the 17th Amendment after which they were elected.

    So yeah, I think we still have two branches of Congress (a REPUBLIC / residue of IRON) in our "DIVIDED KINGDOM" of CLAY, -- but please correct me if I'm wrong! :)


    Bobby Jo
     
  11. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    734
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Remember Daniel is still in Babylon when he gets this vision. They haven't even been captured by the Medes and Persians yet, let alone Greece. So for him it was far in the future, outside his lifetime.

    This is only on the 2300 day (evening and morning) prophecy.

    First Phoneman has pointed out some times in the Old Testament where a day is to be interpreted as a year. That's fine. But they you'all want to go ahead and do that to the 2300 mornings and evenings. They are merely 24 hour days.

    Genesis 1:
    5...So the evening and the morning were the first day.
    8...So the evening and the morning were the second day.
    13.. So the evening and the morning were the third day.
    etc.

    Daniel 8:
    14 He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”

    There is a difference in the prophetic significance in the writing of the words "70 weeks," and the "2300 evenings and mornings." They don't both refer to day/year. You are correct on the 490 years of Daniel 9. But the adding of the "evenings and mornings" signifies those are actual days, not prophetic years.

    The 2300 days are actually 6.39 years, a time during his 11 year reign that Antiochus Epiphanes IV, the little horn of Daniel 8, ruled and desecrated the temple. It was Maccabees that cleansed the temple.

    Daniel 8:
    In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar (last king of Babylon) a vision appeared to me—to me, Daniel—after the one that appeared to me the first time. 2 I saw in the vision, and it so happened while I was looking, that I was in Shushan, the citadel, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in the vision that I was by the River Ulai. 3 Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and there, standing beside the river, was a ram which had two horns, (Medo-Persia) and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other (Persia), and the higher one came up last. 4 I saw the ram pushing westward, northward, and southward, so that no animal could withstand him; nor was there any that could deliver from his hand, but he did according to his will and became great.

    5 And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat (Greece) came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.(Alexander the Great of Greece) 6 Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. 7 And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand. (the end of Medo-Persia).
    8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken (the death of Alexander the Great), and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven (the four generals of Alexander the Great divided the land between the four of them). 9 And out of one of the four came a little horn (Antiochus Ephiphanes IV) which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. (Jerusalem)10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.(they slaughtered many Jews) 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. (Antiochus Epiphanes IV slaughtered a pig on the altar and made the Jews watch)12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered. (Read Maccabees if you can stomach it for the history of this madman.)

    13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?” (Antiochus Ephiphes IV rule over Jerusalem was from 175 BC to 164 BC; but the Jewish revolt started in 167 BC to 160 BC when they ceremoniously cleansed the second temple, called Herod's Temple which was where Jesus went. The Temple itself was from 516 BC to 70 AD.

    14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.” (6 1/3 years - 2300 days - from 167 to 160 BC)
    From Daniel's point of view it would be far away but would still be fulfilled before the 70 weeks prophecy by close to two hundred years, but what was coming to an end was the First Covenant they were in.

    The 2300 days are actually 6.39 years, a time during his 11 year reign that Antiochus Epiphanes IV, the little horn of Daniel 8, ruled and desecrated the temple. It was Maccabees that cleansed the temple.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
  12. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    734
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The iron and the clay for the feet and toes represent 10 nations, some strong as iron, some weak as clay. In fact the Antichrist destroys three of them (most likely the weak clay nations).

    (On a personal note, I'm Linda and am 71 years old. How old are you if you care to tell me)
     
  13. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    734
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Did you know that all the constellations in order starting with Virgo to Leo depict the life of Jesus? The Maggi probably read it in the stars as they were star-gazers. Did you also know the Zodiac was of God before it was corrupted by Satan? When they camped each of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel all had banners depicting their camp with one of the twelve Zodiac signs on the banner.
     
  14. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Active Member

    Messages:
    906
    Likes Received:
    171
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yeah, I'm right behind ya, and have not only studied the Book of Daniel for some 40+ years, but have done all the Scriptural Text research and Historical research with citations, and compiled everything in a draft manuscript. In fact, I was saved alone in my apartment with a Bible I had earned as a child through attendance and memorization (but was NEVER A CHRISTIAN) when GOD revealed HIS TRUTH to me through the Book of Daniel. So of course I can cite all the commentator LIES, the "translator" agendas (and lies), and can speak with authority on virtually every prophetic aspect. Furthermore even the contemporary events in Daniel's day are FALSELY represented. -- But then again, what else is new?!?


    Most people are content with their present "understanding" (FALSE as it is), and are not interested in the TRUTH, so I will not attempt to change your incorrect expectation regarding the Fifth "divided kingdom" and the ten toes.

    Bobby Jo
     
  15. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    734
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I've studied Daniel and Revelation since I was around 7 years old. But when I grew up I found all the errors and worked it all out for myself. Those that say the 2300 day prophecy is 2300 years have never heard of Antiochus Epiphanes IV nor of the Maccabeean revolt that cleansed the temple (Herod's)
     
  16. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    734
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    All the the visions would be long past Daniels lifetime. But the fulfillments are not all for the second coming.

    The 2300 evening and morning was fulfilled in 167 to 160 BC.

    The 70 week prophecy was in three parts:
    When Jesus would be revealed
    When Jesus would die
    When the Temple would be destroyed

    The time of the Antichrist for 7 years.
     
  17. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    734
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You are confusing me. I thought you understood that the 2300 day prophecy was 6 1/3 years. Are you now saying it wont be fulfilled until the last week of years of the 70 week prophecy????

    Wrong. Daniel 8 shows WHO the little horn is and he died in 164 BC.
     
  18. 1stCenturyLady

    1stCenturyLady Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    734
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    This is the little horn of Daniel 7, not the little horn of Daniel 8. Don't get confused.
     
  19. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    975
    Likes Received:
    779
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Th
    This doesn't fit in with the Hebrew understanding of the temple being cleansed. The cleansing was done by the appointed high priest annually with the whole congregation of Israel involved to rid it of the sins that were symbolically brought in via the blood sacrifice through the year.
     
  20. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    975
    Likes Received:
    779
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    is there any mention of that in the scriptures?
     
Loading...