Why water into wine?

[BreadOfLife]

Actually I could have sworn that this 'gentleman' was saying the other day that all the history on the catholic church was all lies, and now he wants you to study history?????

Your lies are out of control pia.
Show me the post where I claimed that ALL history on the Catholic Church is ALL lies.

If you can't do that - then admit that you lied and be done with it..

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well you are right @BreadOfLife ..I did not know that.
But, do you know when the early Christians were first called Catholics? And by whom?
Thanks.

Actually - the first time we see the title of "The Catholic Church" is at the beginning of the 2nd century - while the Apostle John was still alive.

On the way to his martyrdom in Rome, Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch wrote 7 letters to 7 churches.
In his Letter to the Smyrnaeans, he wrote the following:
Ignatius of Antioch
Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).


Notice that he speaks of obedience to the Bishop, respect for the clergy and the celebration of the Eucharist.
In fact - her is his position on the Eucharist - which is the SAME Catholic position today:

Ignatius of Antioch
Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2-7:1 [A.D. 110]).

 

[Helen]

wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church

Thank you for taking time for your answer.
Catholic at that mention , meaning universal right?
I still, though maybe foolishly believe God will work a work that brings ALL His people together as ONE. I pray to that end.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thank you for taking time for your answer.
Catholic at that mention , meaning universal right?
I still, though maybe foolishly believe God will work a work that brings ALL His people together as ONE. I pray to that end.

Actually, no.
"Catholic" in this Letter is being used as a title - not a mere description.

We see this in another 2nd century document called, The Martyrdom of Polycarp:
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ass, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 [A.D. 110]).

If "Catholic" is not being used as a title in this verse - it would make absolutely NO sense in Greek because it would literallt translate as:
"The whole throughout according to the whole Church throughout the world."

"Catholic" is a title in this sentence - NOT a description.

 

[mjrhealth]

And ALL of your whining aside - the historical fact still remains that the New Testament Canon of Scripture that YOU follow was compiled and declared by the Catholic Church.

No the KJ was intepreted and written by KJ who was church of england, beside the NT is from Jesus not from your religion. You really need to stop shouting so much I had to put in ear plugs.

 

[mjrhealth]

There was NO aggressivechristianity.net.

You really should stop visiting that sight the truth makes you angry.

 

[bbyrd009]

Thank you for taking time for your answer.
Catholic at that mention , meaning universal right?
I still, though maybe foolishly believe God will work a work that brings ALL His people together as ONE. I pray to that end.

"It is God's will that none should perish" right, and you either believe God's will gets accomplished in the end or you do not.

 

[Marymog]

Ill make it very simple, so even a child can understand"

I belong to Jesus. You know what that means. He owns me..

This bit

1Co_7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Is that so hard to understand. And I certainly am not teh only one, there are even some here on this forum.

Dear Sir,

Did you miss all the references to The Church in scripture?

If you belong to Jesus then why wouldn't you follow what he says to do in Matthew 18:17?

Which Church was Jesus speaking of?

What does 1 Peter 5:5 mean when it says be subject to the elders? Are you not living up to scripture and being subject to your elders?


Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Curious I do doubt that, you cl;aim to hear from the Holy Spirit and you dont know??

Dear Sir,

I feel you are calling me a liar?

Do you, mjrhealth, not claim to hear from the Holy Spirit also?

Curious Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

You really should stop visiting that sight the truth makes you angry.

Actually - it's a great source for keeping my finger on the pule of the moronic wackos who pervert the Scriptures.
As I read your posts - it's really no wonder why YOU glean your answers from them . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

No the KJ was intepreted and written by KJ who was church of england, beside the NT is from Jesus not from your religion. You really need to stop shouting so much I had to put in ear plugs.

And King James was around in the 4th century when the Canon was declared by the Catholic Church???
You can't be this dense.

The New Testament YOU and ALL Protestants adhere to was declared by what YOU consider to be the "evil" and "apostate" Catholic Church. So, I ask you yet AGAIN:
WHY do you adhere to a canon of Scripture that was officially declared by an "evil" force??

 

[Marymog]

Thank you for taking time for your answer.
Catholic at that mention , meaning universal right?
I still, though maybe foolishly believe God will work a work that brings ALL His people together as ONE. I pray to that end.

Dear ByGrace,

The best I can find thru my research was that the word "Catholic" was capitalized in that letter he wrote. That would make it a title not a general term.

I understand what you mean when you say that you "believe God will work a work that brings ALL His people together as ONE".

And you are 'praying for that end'.

What if in the year 2025 a new Pope is elected that is so dynamic and respected that 90% of Christians in the world become Catholic. Would you feel your prayer has been answered?

Curious Mary

 

[Jun2u]

Whenever you quote the New Testament - you are quoting from the Canon that was declared by the Catholic Church.

WHO told you that the New Testament was Scripture??
Why didn't you agree with Martin Luther and Calvin that certain Books should be removed such as the Epistle of James, Revelation and Hebrews??
Why do you instead acknowledge that the Catholic Church, was guided by the Holy Spirit to declare the Canon that YOU and ALL of Protestantism adheres to.

Let us say you wrote a book and began with the first chapter and after completion you left it on the desk in the study room. Then you wrote the second chapter and left it in the kitchen table, and wrote the third and left it in the bedroom...etc, etc, etc.. Now it is time to compile the chapters into a book.

Will you allow someone to gather those written chapters together without that person knowing the sequence of the chapters? Of course not.

Likewise, here is the Almighty God, the All Knowing Who designated human authors to write a Book called the Bible. Would you honestly believe He would allow men who are sinners to collect and compile and decided which books to put together into one? Not on your life! It is God’s book and it is He who will put them together using the Holy Spirit to inspire them.

“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:21

Don’t be so arrogant and boastful as to think you know scriptures very well because you don’t, as proven by the scripture references you write throughout these forums.

Pride goeth before a fall.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Helen]

I understand what you mean when you say that you "believe God will work a work that brings ALL His people together as ONE".

And you are 'praying for that end'.

What if in the year 2025 a new Pope is elected that is so dynamic and respected that 90% of Christians in the world become Catholic. Would you feel your prayer has been answered?

Curious Mary

Thanks, that is a fun question :)

My problem is in seeing any ( whatever doctrine or creed) man at all, as the head of The Church ever. Nothing against a Pope, I wouldn't want to see any dynamic Protestant either!!
We all have only one Head, and the bible tells us that Christ is our head.
I would love to see any man close the gap, and help bring all of the Christian world closer together. But I see it more as a personal "inner" work of the Holy Spirit within us all.

So my question back to you would be...
WHY ' become Catholic'..why does anyone in the body of Christ have to "become' anything?
Not Protestants, not Catholics not anything...but a wonderful part of The Bride of Christ. Let the unsaved call us what they like...our corporate identity is IN the Lord, not in any "name' attached to who or what we will then be called by some.

My prayer is that we ALL...( ie, *those that believe that Father God sent His Son to die for us...) come to the place where we so desire to be what Christ died for...see nothing but the glory of the Son of God ( shown as The Lamb in Rev. Revelation 1:14 )...Not so much only the man Jesus who lived and walked...but Him, glorified! When we can see that vision I believe that all our petty differences will melt away...in the light of His glorious self.
Not expecting you to agree with me...but just saying.
Bless you....H

 

[tabletalk]

Dear Sir,

Did you miss all the references to The Church in scripture?

If you belong to Jesus then why wouldn't you follow what he says to do in Matthew 18:17?

Which Church was Jesus speaking of?

What does 1 Peter 5:5 mean when it says be subject to the elders? Are you not living up to scripture and being subject to your elders?


Curious Mary

So, are you subject to Elders?
In case you might ask me, yes I am.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Let us say you wrote a book and began with the first chapter and after completion you left it on the desk in the study room. Then you wrote the second chapter and left it in the kitchen table, and wrote the third and left it in the bedroom...etc, etc, etc.. Now it is time to compile the chapters into a book.

Will you allow someone to gather those written chapters together without that person knowing the sequence of the chapters? Of course not.

Likewise, here is the Almighty God, the All Knowing Who designated human authors to write a Book called the Bible. Would you honestly believe He would allow men who are sinners to collect and compile and decided which books to put together into one? Not on your life! It is God’s book and it is He who will put them together using the Holy Spirit to inspire them.

“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:21

Don’t be so arrogant and boastful as to think you know scriptures very well because you don’t, as proven by the scripture references you write throughout these forums.

Pride goeth before a fall.

To God Be The Glory

The fact that God is the Author of Scripture is a given - and nobody is disputing that.
However - the guidance of the Holy Spirit, along with supreme earthly Authority was given to His CHURCH.

It was His Church who was guided by the Holy Spirit to declare the canon of Scripture and no single individual. Had it been left to your Protestant Fathers - MANY Books would have been omitted, such as Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation. It was ONLY due to the fact that cooler heads like Philip Melanchton prevailed during the Revolt in the 16th century that YOU even have these Books in YOUR canon - so don't talk to me about arrogance.

The plain and simple fact of the matter is that the Canon was declared by the Catholic Church - and NO OTHER earthly Authority.

 

[Marymog]

Thanks, that is a fun question :)

My problem is in seeing any ( whatever doctrine or creed) man at all, as the head of The Church ever. Nothing against a Pope, I wouldn't want to see any dynamic Protestant either!!
We all have only one Head, and the bible tells us that Christ is our head.
I would love to see any man close the gap, and help bring all of the Christian world closer together. But I see it more as a personal "inner" work of the Holy Spirit within us all.

So my question back to you would be...
WHY ' become Catholic'..why does anyone in the body of Christ have to "become' anything?
Not Protestants, not Catholics not anything...but a wonderful part of The Bride of Christ. Let the unsaved call us what they like...our corporate identity is IN the Lord, not in any "name' attached to who or what we will then be called by some.

My prayer is that we ALL...( ie, *those that believe that Father God sent His Son to die for us...) come to the place where we so desire to be what Christ died for...see nothing but the glory of the Son of God ( shown as The Lamb in Rev. Revelation 1:14 )...Not so much only the man Jesus who lived and walked...but Him, glorified! When we can see that vision I believe that all our petty differences will melt away...in the light of His glorious self.
Not expecting you to agree with me...but just saying.
Bless you....H

I contemplated adding or suggesting ANY denomination in my example. I decided not to so the question/answer could be more narrowly defined.

So to answer your question, 'Why become anything?'

I think we agree that Scripture is clearly The Truth and the word of God. Since The Truth can have only one truth, not multiple truths, and scripture is clear that we are all to speak as one so that together we may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ then we have to become SOMETHING. Put whatever word you want on it, there is a word for "it". As of today we collectively call ourselves CHRISTIANS but we accuse each other of not being true Christians or knowing The Truth.

So less pretend that in the year 2025 that 90% of all Christians miraculously agree on every doctrine that is important for salvation and they call themselves the Christian Church. Nobody led them there, it just happened. Lest pretend that there are 20 doctrines the Christian Church agrees you have to adhere to be saved. If you disagree with any of those twenty doctrines the Christian Church tells you that you risk not going to heaven. How did we come up with those 20 doctrines without having meetings or councils? How did we get the 20 doctrines without discussion, debate and experts in the proper translation of Scripture? How did we get there without leadership from ANYONE?

The 10%, who call themselves a Christian Church also, that disagree with us only accept anywhere from 5-15 of those original 20 doctrines.

You say 'Let the unsaved call us what they like'. Who decides who the "unsaved" are? The 90% or the 10% Christian Church?

I ask you again. At 90% agreement, has your prayer been answered?

Which Church has the final say about those doctrines and who is saved? Which Church fulfills Matthew 18:17?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

So, are you subject to Elders?
In case you might ask me, yes I am.

Yes.

 

[Marymog]

This is absolutely false - and something that most Protestants have been spoonfed for most of their lives.
I don't blame you for learning this - but, as an adult - you really should do some research about these falsehoods you've been raised on.
Here's a little background on the canonization of Scripture.
Prior to the Canon being declared - MANY Books were considered Scripture and read before congregations for about 300 years.
Among these were apocryphal works like the Shepherd of Hermas, The Epistle of Barnabas, and the Letter of Clement, among others.
There was much debate over those first few centuries and many "canons" from different individuals. The problem was that no individual had the Authority to make this decision. Only the Church did.
During a period of 37 years at the end of the 4th and the turn of the 5th century, the Canon of Scripture was formally declared and confirmed FIVE times. It is the same canon of Scripture that was around during the Protestant Revolt and that is still in use today by the Catholic Church. It was during the so-called Reformation and subsequent periods that rebellious, prideful men had problems with the canon and decided that some of the books were uninspired. Luther wanted to remove several books including Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation. Calvin and Zwingli did not believe Revelation to be inspired and wanted to remove it as well.
The Synod of Rome (382) is where the canon was first formally identified. It was confirmed at the Synod of Hippo eleven years later (393). At the Council (or Synod) of Carthage (397), it was yet again confirmed. The bishops wrote at the end of their document, "But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon". There were 44 bishops, including St. Augustine who signed the document. 7 years later, in 405, in a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, he reiterated the canon. 14 years after that, at the 2nd Council (Synod) of Carthage (419) the canon was again formally confirmed.
The Canon of Scripture was officially closed at the Council of Trent in the 16th century because of the perversions happening within Protestantism and the random editing and deleting of books from the Canon.
You don't have to believe me. Just research it yourself and you'll see that everything I just said is historically accurate.

To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.

 

[Helen]

@Marymog ..I can see our difference now.

YOU are talking about " all agreeing"....I was speaking about being One in The Spirit.
Two very different things. One is through the mind , the other is through the Spirit.