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Why Woul a Loving God Create Such a Hateful Place?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Fire-7, Mar 21, 2011.

  1. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Joshua,

    I can see the issue is the understanding of how a man is tempted.

    Jame1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

    Meaning God will not enter a person to tempt them, He would not do this Himself ,nor would he allow anything elsee for that matter. What follows is very important...

    [sup]14[/sup] but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. [sup]15[/sup] Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

    So lets break this down like this...

    Jesus is tempted when he is dragged away by his own evil desire and enticed. After desire has conceived (Jesus never allowed his carnal mind to conceive his innate evil thoughts). Remember he was tempted in all points as you and I BUT found without sin. The Temptation of Jesus Must be in his mind, because that is where the battle was fought and won. His thoughts to do wrong never conceived, or gave birth, therefore sin did not eventuate in him therefore the grave could not hold him because he didn’t earn the wages of sin which is death.

    Whatever the adversary was???? Whether an external person provoking him to imagine such things, or in his mind. The temptation had to be important to him and relative to his personal situation. A temptation cannot be a temptation if the desire is not in the person!!!!

    Remember he was in the wilderness 40 days without food just having rec the Holy Spirit and His Father required His son to be tempted in all points like as we are. Jesus needed to go through the exact same process of temptation as we do.

    So lets take this a step further.

    [sup]Matt 15:11[/sup]it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but it is what comes out of the mouth (mind) that defiles.’

    Jesus goes onto explain the source of sin and the process of temptation.

    [sup]18[/sup]But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart (or mind), and this is what defiles. [sup]19[/sup]For out of the heart (mind) come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. [sup]20[/sup]These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile.’

    Notice Jesus is speaking about thoughts BUT when he goes to list the workings of the fleshly (carnal mind) he JUMPS to actions. MURDER, ADULTERY, FORNICATION, THEFT etc.

    The question is WHY? the answer is Jesus understood that sin begin with what? ____________

    Yes you got it? A THOUGHT!!! It only take one evil thought to produce MURDER, ADULTERY, TURNING STONE INTO BREAD and so on!

    Whether we agree of disagree on the Supernatural being he has no bearing on temptation, at all, WHY? because out of the heart, in the heart, the heart, the carnal mind, the fleshly mind, the animal serpent mind is the devil, false accuser and the sole manifestation of evil in the Bible.

    It has never been attributed to an external source!!! AND I MEAN NEVER

    understand these above teachings and then you can set a more positive course to find in each of your quotes the true adversary / false accuser.

    Here another example:

    John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. [sup]43[/sup] Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.

    Why could the Pharisees not hear ( BECUASE SNAKES DONT HAVE EARS!!!) watch what happens next.

    [sup]44[/sup] You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.

    Ah so your father is not earthly Abraham who listen to God and understood his will, no your father was a liar from the beginning.

    What lied from the beginning = Serpent who had a carnal mind and could speak. So they are doing exactly what their father (in mind) is was doing back then.

    He was a murdered from the begging? How? Well what was the first sin after they lef the garden? Cain slew (murdered) his brother Able (How) [sup]19[/sup]For out of the heart (mind) come evil intentions, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.

    He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language (why because he hasn’t got the mind of Christ/God dwelling in him), for he (serpent) is a liar and the father of lies. [sup]45[/sup] Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! [sup]46[/sup] Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? [sup]47[/sup] Whoever belongs to God hears (words entering the mind) what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

    No they belong to the animal race and thier end will be everlasting death!

    How does Jesus in John 8 describe the Pharisees.

    Verse 14 - But you (devil, Satan, Serpent, False accusers, slanders) have no idea where I come from or where I am going. [sup]15[/sup] You judge (wrong mind) by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.

    They judge with fleshly thinking!!!

    “You are from below (meaning in the earth where their thinking is - corruptable thinking) ; I am from above (Heavenly mind). You are of this world; I am not of this world. [sup]24[/sup] I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

    The temptation of Jesus Christ regardless of how you twist the Scriptures will always be internal, will always be revealed and the great battle between flesh and spirit...not some make believe supernatual being!

    Sorry in advance for being so passionate.

    I am so convinced of this truth it hurts.

    Alethos




     
  2. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    I think you put this one to rest here Joshua David. Not to mention the demon possessed man story with Jesus casting "Legion" into the swine.
     
  3. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Hi Justaname,

    I dont believe we have spoken? Hello.

    It appears you have presented a number of scriptures which may imply you are overwhelmed a little?

    I have already posted a section on Job. Its one of the most rewarding studies in scripture one I strongly recommend. You must approach Job with an open mind and be preapred to ask questions, lots of questions. God love us so much the more when we ask question of Him (James 1:3-5) . What ever you do do not approach His word with preconceived beliefs or ideas. Yours and my ears wont be fully opened to recieve His truth if we approach Hi mthis way.

    If you dont mind am I able to continue with Joshua for now, but please remind me later to deal with Gen 3, Gen 6 & Job if need be.

    I have asked a number of questions in Job which you may be able to answer.

    What's interesting about the study of Satan, devils etc & God.

    I could ask 40 questions about God and I trust you could answer them all.
    I could ask 40 question about Satan and to date I barely see one answered.

    For something which is so passionately believe in we know very little about him?

    Alethos
     
  4. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I don't really want to come charging into this thread brandishing saber, but this quote bugs me.

    Of course there is going to be more known about God - He is God. This sir/ma'am is what it's all about! The thing about understanding Satan is it's not two great Generals going at one another in equal strength. It's the General going up against a petulant Sergeant at best for Satan.

    It's not the first time I've heard the no Satan argument, but you really have to get creative with explaining away the various passages in the Bible. Vague phrases like "highly symbolic" just don't do it. Jesus repeatedly spoke in highly symbolic terms (parables) and those parables are what defines what we should be and do for Him. Doesn't make them any less real.
     
  5. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Joshua is the only one who has endeavoured to reason out the matter. Maybe its best you leave it in his capable hands.

    So I have you on record for saying Jesus' parable, all of them are actual real events?

    Alethos.








     
  6. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    You do twist unlike your username implies. What I said is already on record. Your fruit bears itself witness.
     
  7. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    HammerStone

    Try to discredit me?

    You said "Doesn't make them any less real"

    Are they real or not?

    You dont need to answer.

    Alethos
     
  8. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    What do we know about Angels?
    They are physical, personal beings who carry God's Name and are the channel through which God's Spirit works to execute His will, which is always in accordance with His character and purpose.

    Put very simply they manifest Him.

    "Angels, that excel in strength, that do His commandments, hearkening unto the voice of His word" (Ps.103:20)

    This would not be true if you believed angels have free will, in other words be able to choose evil.

    For instance we know the Angels performed the creation work Job 38:4-7.

    Man was created on that same sixth day. "God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Gen.1:26).

    Its important also to acknowledge the Angels bare Gods divine nature.

    God cannot sin (perfect) (Rom.9:14, Rom 6:23 compare Ps.90:2, Matt.5:48, James 1:13)

    Cannot die, He is immortal (1 Tim.6:16)

    Full of power and energy (Isaiah 40:28)

    This nature is exactly what God offers us “if” we are able to overcome our nature through faith. Lk 20:35-36 2 Pet.1:4 Is 40:28 compare Isaiah 40:31



    Human nature is...

    Tempted to sin (James 1:13-15) by a corrupt natural mind (Jer.17:9; Mark 7:21-23)


    Doomed to death, mortal (Rom.5:12-17 1 Cor 15:22)

    Of very limited strength, both physically (Isaiah 40:30) and mentally (Jer10:23).

    So the end of our nature as previously expressed is death and it was the same nature Jesus had during his mortal life Rom6:23. Heb.2:14-18 Rom.8:3 Jn 2:25 Mk.10:18

    Angels Do Not Sin
    Angels cannot sin because the law of God commands that the wages of sin is death, and Angels cannot die!

    But the word angels can be used of men and women like ourselves. John the baptist (Mt.11:10) and his messengers (Luke 7:24); the messengers of Jesus (Luke 9:52) and the men who spied out Jericho (James 2:25). It is, of course, possible that 'angels' in the sense of human messengers can sin.

    But Heavenly Angels cannot sin.

    "The Lord hath prepared His throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all ( i.e. there can be no rebellion against God in Heaven). Bless the Lord, ye His Angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of His word.

    Bless ye the Lord, all ye His hosts; ye ministers of His, that do his pleasure" (Ps.103:19-21).

    "Praise him, all his Angels...his hosts" (Ps.148:2)

    "The angels...are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them (the believers) who shall be heirs of salvation?" (Heb.1:13,14).

    Angels are never divided into groups the word “all” suggest that all do His commands.

    The reward does not make sense if angels can sin!

    "They which shall be accounted worthy...neither marry...neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the Angels" (Lk.20:35,36).


    This is a vital point to grasp. Angels cannot die: "Death...does not lay hold of Angels" (Heb 2:16)

    If Angels could sin, then those who are found worthy of reward at Christ's return will also still be able to sin. And seeing that sin brings death (Rom 6:23), they will therefore not have eternal life; if we have a possibility of sinning, we have the capability of dying.

    Thus to say Angels can sin makes God's promise of eternal life meaningless, seeing that our reward is to share the nature of the Angels. The reference to "the Angels" (Luke 20:35-36)

    BUT what if angels could sin?

    God is left impotent to righteously act in our lives and the affairs of the world, seeing that He has declared that He works through His Angels (Ps.103:19-21).

    They are 'made Spirit' by God in the sense that He achieves all things by His spirit/power, acting through the Angels (Ps. 104:4).

    That they should be disobedient to Him is therefore an impossibility.

    The Christian should daily pray for God's Kingdom to come on earth, that His will should be done here as it is now done in heaven Mt. 6:10).

    If God's Angels compete with sinful Angels in heaven, then His will could not be fully executed there, and therefore the same situation would obtain in God's future Kingdom.


    To spend eternity in a world which would be a perpetual battlefield between sin and obedience is hardly an encouraging prospect, but that, of course, is not the case.

    • "The Angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them" (Ps. 34:7).
    • "...these little ones which believe in me (i.e. weak disciples - Zech. 13:7 cp. Mt. 26:31)...in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father" (Mt. 18:6,10).
    • Peter had a guardian Angel (Acts 12:14-15).
    • The people of Israel went through the Red Sea, and were led by an Angel through the wilderness towards the promised land. Our baptism in water (1 Cor. 10:1) so we must believe our angel is doing the same uninhibited by sin and death!
    If the Angels can be evil in the sense of being sinful, then such promises of Angelic control and influence in our lives become a curse instead of a blessing.



    Alethos
     
  9. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    To answer to your questions in Job. You may have to open two windows to read your questions as I did not take the time to rewrite them.


    Scripture is sufficient as to all we need to know.

    You are asking why God does what he does.

    What leads you to believe their conference is in Heaven? The Lord is not contained by the heavens and hence can meet anywhere he wants to.

    Deut 19 : 17 this is a law passed that both parties must stand before the Lord, unrelated.

    Again scripture never says they are in Heaven. Some confuse the heavens as being the same as Heaven.

    You are correct Cain was not in Heaven but Gen 3 : 8 "And they hear the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden..." God was present with Cain.

    Satan does not have access to Heaven and Luke 7:35 "... for he is kind to unthankful and to the evil."

    This rebel angel was cast down from Heaven to Earth. He no longer has access to heaven.

    The Lords prayer asks for God's will to be done on Earth (clearly it is not) as it is in Heaven (clearly it is)

    It was God's will to create free will. Satan believed himself to be wiser than God. Ezek 28 12 - 15 This is the mystery that was revealed to Paul. Jesus was not to set up Kingdom at that time like Peter and Satan thought but died (in the flesh) to open the gates of grace. Being without sin, like you know death had no sting, therefore killing the metaphorical Satan (as you fully understand) and loosing the physical cherub Satan's grip on the Earth and the heavens (notice the non capitol on heavens) until his final demise as it is written in revelation.

    Jesus Christ does have authority and control over the heavens, he lacks no control, and yes you can doubt God, many if not most do.

    Job is acknowledging God's sovereignty.


    Thank you for your concern but I am not overwhelmed. I greatly admire your knowledge of two mindedness and things of the like. Simply put you understand these well and God has anointed you. Unfortunately you do not understand all things as well, as the like with all of us. Giving no credence to a physical Satan leaves you vulnerable. Let us look at Mark 5. What did Jesus cast into the swine? As we see throughout all the gospels Jesus was casting out demons everywhere he went. Also it was mentioned many times these unclean spirits knew exactly who Jesus was.

     
  10. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Gen 3 : 22 -23 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know of good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."

    Man had the chance, even with the wage of sin, to be able to have life everlasting until he was taken from the garden.

    There are fallen angles. Gen 6 : 2 "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and the took them wives of all which they chose." These fallen angles took wives for themselves to defile the bloodlines of mankind.
    Then Gen 6 : 8 - 9 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." Noah's bloodline was still pure. God chose him to fulfill the promise given to the serpent (Satan) in the garden. Gen 3 : 15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shat bruise his heel."

    Jesus has fulfilled that scripture in the metaphorical sense and we await his return to complete the task in the physical. He opened the door for grace, but evil still abounds.

    Quoted from you:

    If God's Angels compete with sinful Angels in heaven, then His will could not be fully executed there, and therefore the same situation would obtain in God's future Kingdom.

    To spend eternity in a world which would be a perpetual battlefield between sin and obedience is hardly an encouraging prospect, but that, of course, is not the case.


    That battlefield is happening here and now, throughout the heavens, but not in Heaven. This is the reason we await his second coming, so that he may set up Kingdom here. Angles may not be able to die but they can sure be bound in a pt, or cast into a lake of fire. Revelation 20 : 2 "and he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

    You see we are in a battle between good and evil. There are angels loyal to God. There are angels cast out from Heaven loyal to Lucifer, Satan, the dragon, the serpent, the Devil, the anointed cherub that covereth, and whatever you can think of to call him. Guard yourself daily from these as they look to lay waste to all that follow our Lord Jesus Christ.


    but what do I know?
     
  11. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    So you are saying it was God's will that an angel should fall?

    Jesus here is acknowledging that Gods will on earth in its totality was NOT being done on earth (due to sin). But Jesus is saying / asking that His Father's Will is absolute in Heaven and that Will Jesus wants to be on Earth.

    Therefore you are indirectly saying that Gods will included the fallen angel?

    Alethos

    We will get to Mark 5 shortly.

    God bought the evil upon Job NOT your Satan Job 42:11 why not attribute your Satan the Evil??? Since you believe it was him. In fact where is he after making an insignificant entrance he fades away very quickly? Take a look you will see this is true.
     
  12. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    You're absolutely right! Tons of things happen outside the will of God. That's what sin is.

    It's easy to get caught up thinking, "Ah, well, it's the Lords will."

    As believers Jesus was telling us to conform and desire the Will of God.
     
  13. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    So why would Jesus pray to the Father in Heaven for sin to be done on Earth?

    Makes a lot of sense!

    Alethos
     
  14. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Heaven is a sin free zone...the Bible is clear the Fathers Will is absolute

    You will have to find another way to condure up satans, devils and demons.

    Sin in heaven :wacko:

    The Lord hath prepared His throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all ( i.e. there can be no rebellion against God in Heaven). Bless the Lord, ye His Angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of His word.

    So they dont hearken to his voice?
    God deosnt have all dominoin in Heaven?
    His angels dont excell in strenght?
    Some of His angel dont praise Him in the Heavens.

    Alethos











     
  15. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Jesus gave us that prayer after Satan and his followers were cast out from Heaven. God's will is being followed in Heaven.

    God allowed the evil upon Job that Satan asked if he could bring about, in other words it was Satan's idea clearly evident in Job 1 10 - 11. Who is God having this conversation with if Satan does not exist?


    Now as for the fallen angel, God's will is good. Clearly we know the angels had knowledge of both good and evil. That Devil's will is not, it is evil, but it was not always that way. Ezek 28 14 - 19

    God allows for free will evident here on Earth. What makes you believe he wouldn't want the same for his angels? All things that happen fall in accordance with his good and perfect plan. Heaven is not a state of mind it is an actual place. Evil has a name and it is Satan. We are not gods, we are but God's creation. All of this is not about us, it is about Him. All scripture points back to Jesus who points back to God. If you wish to find out why Satan fell maybe you should not look at scripture with preconceived notions.
     
  16. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Read that again.
     
  17. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    What I am about to discuss with you is for your benefit. I am not trying to misled you but teach you truth. Many posts have highlighted sin, it source, angels their nature, God, is all powerful in Heaven and on Earth although not fully manifested.

    God loves you justaname, and He tells you "For (those) whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth...If you endure His chastening...afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby" (Heb 12:6-11).

    To this you would agree.

    For this shows you the trials which God gives you lead eventually to our spiritual growth.

    It is setting the word of God against itself to say that the devil is a being which forces us to sin and be unrighteous, whilst at the same time he supposedly brings problems into our lives which lead to our developing "the peaceable fruit of righteousness".

    This presents you a serious problem, because the scripture speaks of you being delivered to satan "that the spirit may be saved", or "that he may learn not to blaspheme" (1 Cor 5:5 1 Tim 1:20).

    If Satan is really a being bent on causing men & woman to sin and having a negative spiritual effect upon people, why do these passages speak of 'Satan' in a positive light? The answer lies in the fact that an adversary, a "Satan" or difficulty in life, can often result in positive spiritual effects in a believer's life.

    Think of me as a Satan (no not that one), one trying to lead you to righteousness.

    I am not against you, I am for you.

    Alethos
     
  18. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    I should also show you many scriptures reveal God bringing Evil upon his children to teach them righteousness.

    Here a few:

    Mic.1:12 says that "evil came down from the Lord unto the gate of Jerusalem".

    We have considered Job though you doubt it was the Lords doing. Job was a righteous man and he lost the things which he had in this life. Job openly and freely acknowledges "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away"
    (Job 1:21).

    He does not say 'The Lord gave and Satan took away'. Because that would be out of context with the narrative.

    He commented to his wife: "Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not (also) receive evil?" Job 2:10.

    And like I said at the end of the book, Job's friends comforted him over "all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him" (Job 42:11 compare Job 19:21
    Job 8:4).

    This proves God is the source of "evil" in the sense of being the ultimate permitter of the problems that we have in our lives.
     
  19. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    One day the angels [fn] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan the Accuser came with them. "Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan. And Satan answered the LORD, "I have been going back and forth across the earth, watching everything that's going on." Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth—a man of complete integrity. He fears God and will have nothing to do with evil."


    So Truth was it flesh that went with the angels before God???
     
  20. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    It is setting the word of God against itself to say that the devil is a being which forces us to sin and be unrighteous, whilst at the same time he supposedly brings problems into our lives which lead to our developing "the peaceable fruit of righteousness".


    I am not saying the devil "forces" us to sin, as if that were true freewill would not exist. Satan is merely a tempter. I fully understand God's sovereignty as Job did. All things will pass through the hands of God before it reaches any form of manifestation. I completely understand that anything we endure God will ultimately use for good.

    This presents you a serious problem, because the scripture speaks of you being delivered to satan "that the spirit may be saved", or "that he may learn not to blaspheme" (1 Cor 5:5 1 Tim 1:20).
    [font="tahoma][color="#5D5D5D"]
    [/color][/font]
    Lets put this in context. What Paul is speaking of is the fornication practice of the Corinthians. He is telling them to give back that practice to Satan, for that practice is of the flesh, not of the spirit. As you continue to read he speaks of leaven. What he is saying is to become that new creation in Christ leave the old ways behind.




     
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