Will there be or is there a need for a future Messianic age?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,842
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You view the whole chapter as symbolic 1,000 years of the here and now and a very long time, and now you want a literal grave after heaven and earth no longer exist? You want literal Adamic corruptible dead flesh bodies? What happened to just spiritual dead souls? If they have bodies walking around in sheol, then they don't need a new body to be cast into the LOF do they? They don't need to have a body outside of time and creation either do they? Unless of course they all have Adam's dead corruptible flesh body in sheol. You can be as literal or symbolic for all that matter, but they don't have a resurrection unless they are going to skip the second death in the LOF and given eternal life.

Tell me how they are called out of their graves when that reality no longer exists. You don't even have that in Revelation 19, where they are all killed. I am not calling John 5:29 wrong. The resurrection of damnation is not the same thing as the resurrection of life is it?

You can call the dead standing at the GWT a resurrection to damnation. You cannot call it a resurrection to life, unless they are given life.

But you can add to the words and thoughts of Revelation all day long. Just don't accuse others they are wrong who don't feel so inclined to add words and thoughts to Revelation. Don't accuse others of being wrong who do not accept the human opinion of recapitulation or parallel views. Holding people to private opinion and interpretation outside of the Holy Spirit is what is an error in Amil eschatology.
Many people see recapitulations and parallels in the book of Revelation the way I do. How many people interpret the book the way you do? One. Just you. So, who is the one with the "private opinion and interpretation outside of the Holy Spirit" here? That would be you.
 

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You said this: This came across that you think I "don't believe the inspired word of God" and that your intention is to either instruct or ignore me. So, I said you have nothing to teach me in response to you saying "I instruct them".
Yes I did. I instruct fools all the time, but don't teach them a thing because they're wise in their own eyes.
 

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Why didn't you address what I said? And now you are expecting me to address what you're saying here? Is this a one way discussion? Is that how discussions work?

I could say the same to you as what you said to me here regarding many other passages like 2nd Peter 3. How does 2 Peter 3:3-13 fit with your Premil view? Can you show me that? I refuse to believe that animal sacrifices will be reinstated in the future as that would contradict Hebrews 8-10. Does that not matter to you?
Hebrews 8:10 addresses the house of Israel right in the verse, not the Gentile nations. If you can't properly interpret one sentence, how will you understand a passage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ewq1938

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,491
586
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is your problem. You expect everything to be spelled out there in Revelation 20. John said in Revelation 20:5 that the rest of the dead will be resurrected after the thousand years. So, when do you think that happens? Do you not think Revelation 20:11-15 includes "the rest of the dead" that John referenced in verse 5?

You need to learn to interpret scripture with scripture. Jesus said the unsaved will be resurrected before being condemned. Why can't you accept that? Why does that need to be spelled out in Revelation 20 when we can see that in John 5:28-29? Not every passage about the day of judgment has all the same details. So, we need to look at all of them to see the big picture. This is clearly a foreign concept to you.
That is not what it says.

Perhaps you need it spelled out for you?

The verse does not say the rest of the dead lived again. The verse says:

The rest of the dead lived not again.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again"

There is a chance presented again in 1,000 years years. But it was not a promise of a resurrection.

You don't even give those who lived again prior to the 1,000 years a physical body. If you did, they would still have a physical body since the first century. When I post that point, you call it nonsense, and give some spiritual mumbo jumbo about everything else, but a physical body.

You conclude that every one in sheol, Death, and the sea are going to have a resurrection and eternal life? How is that possible if they are cast into the LOF? Eternal life is being given a resurrection, and a blessing escaping the Second Death, ie the LOF.

You deny they have a physical resurrection prior to the 1,000 years, and then expect them to have a physical resurrection at the end.

The verses state just the opposite. Those resurrected in verse 4 have a physical resurrection, rule on physical earth for a literal 1,000 years with Jesus as King. Then when the 1,000 years are over, the rest of the dead are cast into the LOF. The only ones who are blessed are those at the beginning of the 1,000 years. The dead are not blessed, but cast into the LOF. It is also plausable that while those people are having their heads chopped off, many more are still dying and going to sheol. Those dying before this resurrection in verse 4 are not blessed. Why would they suddenly be blessed at the end? If they accept eternal life after being in sheol for 1,000 years, that is the only way they will be blessed and experience the first resurrection.

Yet you want a resurrection to damnation on equal footing as a resurrection to eternal life. Is being damned equal to being blessed?
 

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2020
8,491
586
113
Mount Morris
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Many people see recapitulations and parallels in the book of Revelation the way I do. How many people interpret the book the way you do? One. Just you. So, who is the one with the "private opinion and interpretation outside of the Holy Spirit" here? That would be you.
And even more people believe Joseph Smith and Mohammed. Is your private interpretation of recapitulation ok by popular opinion?

Until it is defined in Scripture as being inspired of God, it is human opinion.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, I was a member of BibleForums.org since the late 90s.
I remember you Marty, and several other names who post here.
Ah, I remember you. I was awestruckchild there. I got kicked out for laughing at Benny Hinn. That was after episkopos got kicked out for preaching the full gospel of the kingdom.
Welcome here David!
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,786
2,440
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ah, I remember you. I was awestruckchild there. I got kicked out for laughing at Benny Hinn. That was after episkopos got kicked out for preaching the full gospel of the kingdom.
Welcome here David!
Must've been the same site where I got put on coffee break a few times. I had a few arguments with the mods. Later they asked me if I wanted to be one! ;) I really didn't care that much--learned a lot, even though some of the people there were like they are here--hostile when disagreed with.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Must've been the same site where I got put on coffee break a few times. I had a few arguments with the mods. Later they asked me if I wanted to be one! ;) I really didn't care that much--learned a lot, even though some of the people there were like they are here--hostile when disagreed with.
You don’t mess with the idols of a man’s father and not be prepared to get run out of town!
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,786
2,440
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You don’t mess with the idols of a man’s father and not be prepared to get run out of town!
To be honest, sometimes I don't act like a good Christian. It does me no good to blame the other person for provoking me--I just try to get back on the right path.

It's sad but some actually will not *let* you get back on the right path unless you lay your beliefs down or agree with them. This is an impassable barrier to what should be good Christian fellowship.
 

stunnedbygrace

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
12,397
12,048
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To be honest, sometimes I don't act like a good Christian. It does me no good to blame the other person for provoking me--I just try to get back on the right path.
No, you don’t blame them that your flesh got stirred up by their flesh. You just admit that’s what happened and go to God for more grace to overcome.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Randy Kluth

BARNEY BRIGHT

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,032
1,119
113
67
Thomaston Georgia
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is simply laughable. If Jesus "fulfilled" the Millennium, we should now be living is "the New Heavens and the New Earth".

Acts 2:34-36 & Hebrews 10:12, 13 shows us that Jesus ruling as the Messianic King would not begin immediately. It's when the appointed times of the gentile nations or times of the Gentiles end, that Jesus will begin reigning as king amongst his enemies, and he will rule over earth in that heavenly Messianic Kingdom. The scriptures at Revelation 12:7-12 shows that after Jesus starts ruling as the king of the Messianic kingdom that there would be a war fought in heaven between Michael and his angels and the dragon and his angels and the dragon and his angels would lose and be thrown out of heaven. It would be glad times for those in heaven but a time of woe for earth and earth has really seen some woe times since 1914.

Three days before Jesus died, Jesus apostles asked him: “What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (Matthew 24:3) In reply, Jesus told of specific world events and situations that would clearly show that this ungodly system had entered its last days. I believe scripture shows us that Jesus started ruling as the Messianic king in the heavenly Messianic Kingdom in1914.


I know some will scoff and some will probably say, how can that be, things have become worse, not better. But actually, this is a strong indication that God’s Kingdom has begun ruling. Why would I say that? Well, Psalm 110:2 informs us that for a time Jesus would rule ‘in the midst of his enemies.’ Indeed, his first act as heavenly King was to cast Satan and his demon angels down to the vicinity of the earth. (Revelation 12:9) What was the effect? It was just what Revelation 12: 12 foretold: “Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.” We are now living in that “short period of time.”when Jesus was asked what the sign of his presence and of the end of the world would be, his reply was sobering. Let us take a close look at some of the principal features of the last days.

Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom.” (Matthew 24:7; Revelation 6:4) Writer Ernest Hemingway called World War I “the most colossal, murderous, mismanaged butchery that has ever taken place on earth.” According to the book The World in the Crucible—1914-1919, this was “a new scope of war, the first total war in the experience of mankind. Its duration, intensity, and scale exceeded anything previously known or generally expected.” Then came World War II, which proved much more destructive than World War I. “The twentieth century,” says professor of history Hugh Thomas, “has been dominated by the machine gun, the tank, the B-52, the nuclear bomb and, finally, the missile. It has been marked by wars more bloody and destructive than those of any other age.” True, much was said about disarmament after the Cold War ended. Still, one report estimates that after proposed reductions some 10,000 to 20,000 nuclear warheads will remain—more than 900 times the firepower used during World War II.



There will be food shortages.” (Matthew 24:7; Revelation 6:5,6,8) Since 1914 there have been at least 20 major famines. Afflicted areas include Bangladesh, Burundi, Cambodia, China, Ethiopia, Greece, India, Nigeria, Russia, Rwanda, Somalia, and Sudan. But famine is not always caused by a lack of food. “The world’s food supply over recent decades has grown faster than its population,” concluded a group of agricultural scientists and economists. “But because at least 800 million people remain in deep poverty, . . . they are unable to purchase enough of the abundance to lift them out of chronic malnutrition.” Political meddling is involved in other cases. Dr. Abdelgalil Elmekki of the University of Toronto cites two examples in which thousands starved while their countries were exporting massive amounts of food. The governments seemed far more concerned with raising foreign currency to finance their wars than with feeding their citizens. Dr. Elmekki’s conclusion? Famine is often “a matter of distribution and government policy.”


Pestilences.” (Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:8) The Spanish influenza of 1918-19 claimed at least 21 million lives. “The world had never in history been ravaged by a killer that slew so many human beings so quickly,” writes A. A. Hoehling in The Great Epidemic. Today, pestilences rage on. Each year, cancer kills five million people, diarrheal diseases claim the lives of more than three million infants and children, and tuberculosis slays three million. Respiratory infections, mainly pneumonia, annually kill 3.5 million youngsters under five years of age. And a staggering 2.5 billion—half the world’s population—suffer from sicknesses that stem from insufficient or contaminated water and poor sanitation. AIDS looms as a further reminder that man, despite his significant medical accomplishments, is incapable of eradicating pestilences.

“Men will be . . . lovers of money.” (2 Timothy 3:2) In lands around the world, people seem to have an insatiable hunger for greater wealth. “Success” is often measured by the size of one’s paycheck, “accomplishment” by how much one owns. “Materialism will continue to be one of the driving forces in American society . . . and an increasingly important force in other major markets as well,” declared the vice president of an advertising agency.


“Disobedient to parents.” (2 Timothy 3:2) Present-day parents, teachers, and others have firsthand evidence that many children are disrespectful and disobedient. Some of these youngsters are either reacting to or imitating their parents’ misbehavior. Increasing numbers of children are losing faith in—and rebelling against—school, the law, religion, and their parents. “As a trend,” says one veteran schoolteacher, “they seem to have very little respect for anything.” Happily, though, many God-fearing children are exemplary in behavior.


Having no natural affection.” (2 Timothy 3:3) This phrase is translated from a Greek word meaning “heartless, inhuman” and denoting a “lack of natural, family affection.” (The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology) Yes, affection is often missing in the very environment in which it should flourish—the home. Reports of abusive treatment of marriage mates, children, and even of elderly parents have become disturbingly common. One research team commented: “Human violence—be it a slap or a shove, a knifing or a shoot-out—occurs more frequently within the family circle than anywhere else in our society.”

Having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power.” (2 Timothy 3:5)The Bible has the power to change lives for the better. (Ephesians 4:22-24) Yet, many today use their religion as a screen behind which they carry on unrighteous activities that displease God. Lying, stealing, and sexual misconduct are often condoned by religious leaders. Many religions preach love but support warfare. “In the name of the Supreme Creator,” observes an editorial in the magazine India Today, “human beings have perpetrated the most abominable atrocities against their fellow creatures.” In fact, the two bloodiest conflicts of recent times—World Wars I and II—erupted in the heart of Christendom.

“Ruining the earth.” (Revelation 11:18) More than 1,600 scientists, including 104 Nobel laureates, from around the world endorsed a warning, issued by the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), that stated: “Human beings and the natural world are on a collision course. . . . No more than a few decades remain before the chance to avert the threats will be lost.” The report said that man’s life-threatening practices “may so alter the world that it will be unable to sustain life in the manner that we know.” Ozone depletion, water pollution, deforestation, loss of soil productivity, and the extinction of many animal and plant species were cited as urgent problems that must be addressed. “Our tampering with the interdependent web of life,” said the UCS, “could trigger widespread effects, including collapses of biological systems whose dynamics we imperfectly understand.

“This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth.” (Matthew 24:14) Jesus foretold that the good news of the Kingdom would be preached earth wide, for a witness to all the nations. With divine help and blessing, millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses are devoting billions of hours to this preaching and disciple-making work. (Matthew 28:19,20) Yes, the Witnesses realize that they would be bloodguilty if they did not declare the good news. (Ezekiel 3:18,19) But they are delighted that each year thousands gratefully respond to the Kingdom message and take their stand as true Christians, that is, as Witnesses of YHWH. It is an inestimable privilege to serve YHWH and thus spread the knowledge of God. And after this good news is preached in all the inhabited earth, the end of this wicked World will come.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,786
2,440
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, you don’t blame them that your flesh got stirred up by their flesh. You just admit that’s what happened and go to God for more grace to overcome.
It's not always so cut and dried. We get angry, and say things that don't edify, but I wouldn't always call it a "sin." It's just that our anger doesn't accomplish a whole lot. There may be a very good reason for it, but it still may not be a wise thing to respond to someone who incites you.

Believe me, the one who incites is more guilty than the one who is provoked. But I let God work things out because we're all mixed. And it's difficult to tell when someone is crossing the line. It should become apparent over time. We are all at different stages of maturity, and some are under more duress at times than I am.

God does not act quick in judging us most times we get in these heated exchanges. He is patient, though we are not nearly so patient. He is always "love," and we are a mixed breed.

It's difficult sometimes to say "this is carnal" and "this is spiritual." We tend to judge the "spiritual" as peace-loving, kind, gentle, and without controversy. But kindness isn't always a good feeling with a resultant peace among brothers. Sometimes it is bringing a hard truth, with others rejecting that hard truth. So we can't always judge by appearances, or by how "peaceable" it seems.
 

DavidTaylor

Member
Sep 4, 2022
40
56
18
57
Tennessee
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Are you all claiming that Jesus didn’t already raise up the third temple?
Christ didn’t raise up just the third temple, He raised up the final everlasting temple, and the only perfect and true temple, that was the pattern and type all of the inferior temples made with hands model from.

Pagans raise false, idolatrous temples up with hands all the time, but God’s people know Christ and His body is the only true temple of the true God.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: rwb and Marty fox

Waiting on him

Well-Known Member
Dec 21, 2018
11,674
6,096
113
56
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Christ didn’t raise up just the third temple, He raised up the final everlasting temple, and the only perfect and true temple, that was the pattern and type all of the inferior temples made with hands model from.

Pagans raise false, idolatrous temples up with hands all the time, but God’s people know Christ and His body is the only true temple of the true God.
Hey, when you know, you just know.