Will there be or is there a need for a future Messianic age?

[Timtofly]

Where does it say that? What is their reward exactly?

Because that isn't taught in scripture. But, you're welcome to show me where it is taught, if you can.

The hope of eternal life is what we currently have. We don't actually inherit eternal life until Christ returns, as Matthew 25:31-46 indicates.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.......46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Those who are still alive when Christ returns won't have to be resurrected and they will be rewarded. But, scripture makes it clear that they will be rewarded at the same time as the dead in Christ when Christ returns (1 Thess 4:14-17).

All of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time, according to Jesus in John 5:28-29. But, believers who "are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" obviously won't need to be resurrected since they won't die but instead will be changed to have immortal bodies at that point (1 Cor 15:50-54).

Not in terms of having immortal bodies on the new heavens and new earth for eternity. They are still waiting for that reward.

Where is that stated in Revelation 20:4? I don't think you're reading Revelation 20:4 very carefully. I can't find anything that says what you think it says there.

Because there is nothing stated in that verse that the dead inherit the earth at that point. You are making that up.

Where does it say they are judged at that point? You are making a lot of assumptions here.

I don't feel like reading any more of your post. I just disagree with you on everything.

Revelation 11 is talking about Adam's flesh.

"And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Nations and those who destroy the earth are the dead. But they are alive, because nations do not exist in sheol neither can the earth be destroyed from sheol.

Besides, if you cannot find the word reward in Revelation 4, then you cannot just plop the word resurrection in Revelation 11:18.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them"

How can something be given in judgment, if not a reward. What was given?

"they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Life was given and authority was given as a reward. They literally inherit the earth.

You seem to deny Abraham's bosom was emptied at the Cross, if you reject that was the hour they physically arose from death. Leaving Abraham's bosom is a resurrection from a state of death.

Why call it the Resurrection and the Life if all you get is souls only changing location? Souls could have always been in the firmament if that was the case. You accept the term spiritual in most of your post. Being spiritually dead is just as dead as being physically dead. They both are a state of death. Yet somehow people can be physically alive and spiritually dead so still dead. Revelation 11 is post Second Coming those OT prophets are physically and spiritually alive, not dead in either sense of the word. Jesus is about to destroy those who are spiritually dead and reward those spiritually alive. No resurrection even mentioned. Even those who will be beheaded have not even been beheaded at this time. Jesus is either going to kill them all now, or after Satan's 42 months at Armageddon. So still not a resurrection, because these people are still alive on the earth.

Yet in Revelation 20:4-6 it calls this the first resurrection, those beheaded were judged and given their sentence. Their reward is to rule and reign on earth for 1,000 years. Certainly it is a reward and not a punishment.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, I suppose the act of physically destroying the wicked can be seen as a form of judgment, but we are talking about the judging of the dead here. They are already dead, so it's not referring to the judgment of the living by way of physically killing them.

Well that's the whole point I was making. The context in which the dead are judged are being mixed in with the context in which people are judged and killed. You have to look at each passage to see which context it is.

Two separate events of judging the dead? Why would that occur? Why not judge the dead once? Seems much more efficient that way.

If there is a Millennial Period after the followers of Antichrist are judged and killed, and separated from God forever, then there must be another judging event at the end of the Millennium, to judge, kill, and sentence those who live during that time.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Did Jesus make it so that people didn't need to go to Jerusalem to worship and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles only to inexplicably make that a requirement again in the future?

John 4:19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Jesus indicated from that time on "true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth". But, you say that people will be required again to go to Jerusalem to worship and keep the feast of tabernacles? That contradicts what Jesus taught.

Read Zechariah chapter 14, slowly. Did Jesus come to fulfill the Law or Scripture? Not one of God's words will ever drop to the ground, no biblical prophecy is made void by Christ's incarnation. If you deny the truth of old testament prophecy, you deny the One who came with signs of its fulfillment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well that's the whole point I was making. The context in which the dead are judged are being mixed in with the context in which people are judged and killed. You have to look at each passage to see which context it is.

It talks about judging the dead separately from destroying those who destroy the earth. That is the context. You are trying to make those things the same.

If physically destroying those who destroy the earth is a case of judging people then it's judging those who are alive, not dead. Judging the dead involves first resurrecting the dead and having them stand before the throne to be judged, as depicted in Revelation 20:11-15.

If there is a Millennial Period after the followers of Antichrist are judged and killed, and separated from God forever, then there must be another judging event at the end of the Millennium, to judge, kill, and sentence those who live during that time.

Where is it taught in scripture that there will be two future judgment days? What I see taught repeatedly is that there is one future judgment day where all people will be judged. You can see that in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.

And then there is this:

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

This couldn't be more clear. God has set (appointed) a singular day (one event) when "He will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed", which obviously refers to Jesus. That day is depicted in Matthew 25:31-46 and it will occur when Jesus comes with His angels.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Read Zechariah chapter 14, slowly. Did Jesus come to fulfill the Law or Scripture? Not one of God's words will ever drop to the ground, no biblical prophecy is made void by Christ's incarnation. If you deny the truth of old testament prophecy, you deny the One who came with signs of its fulfillment.

Why didn't you address what I said? And now you are expecting me to address what you're saying here? Is this a one way discussion? Is that how discussions work?

I could say the same to you as what you said to me here regarding many other passages like 2nd Peter 3. How does 2 Peter 3:3-13 fit with your Premil view? Can you show me that? I refuse to believe that animal sacrifices will be reinstated in the future as that would contradict Hebrews 8-10. Does that not matter to you?

 

[Truth7t7]

Did Jesus make it so that people didn't need to go to Jerusalem to worship and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles only to inexplicably make that a requirement again in the future?

John 4:19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Jesus indicated from that time on "true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth". But, you say that people will be required again to go to Jerusalem to worship and keep the feast of tabernacles? That contradicts what Jesus taught.

Scripture teaches that the feast of tabernacles, new moons, and Sabbath days will be observed in the (Eternal New Heavens And New Earth) possibly you need to identify the (Eternal Kingdom) seen in Zechariah chapter 14 and Isaiah chapter 66 to validate this claim

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Scripture teaches that the feast of tabernacles, new moons, and Sabbath days will be observed in the (Eternal New Heavens And New Earth) possibly you need to identify the (Eternal Kingdom) seen in Zechariah chapter 14 and Isaiah chapter 66 to validate this claim

Observing the feast of tabernacles involves performing animal sacrifices. Do you think animal sacrifices will be performed on the eternal new earth?

 

[michaelvpardo]

Why didn't you address what I said? And now you are expecting me to address what you're saying here? Is this a one way discussion? Is that how discussions work?

I could say the same to you as what you said to me here regarding many other passages like 2nd Peter 3. How does 2 Peter 3:3-13 fit with your Premil view? Can you show me that? I refuse to believe that animal sacrifices will be reinstated in the future as that would contradict Hebrews 8-10. Does that not matter to you?

I don't discuss anything with folks on a Christian website that don't believe the inspired word of God. I instruct them, or I hit the ignore button.

 

[Timtofly]

If physically destroying those who destroy the earth is a case of judging people then it's judging those who are alive, not dead. Judging the dead involves first resurrecting the dead and having them stand before the throne to be judged, as depicted in Revelation 20:11-15.

Those verses do not resurrect the dead. They are still dead, not given life.

Those who destroy the earth are dead in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are dead when destroyed, and still dead 1,000 years later as dead before the GWT. They are never resurrected, unless they are granted eternal life, and then they certainly don't enter the LOF, but have been blessed with the first resurrection. All those with a first resurrection are blessed and the second death in the LOF has no power over them.

You keep breaking and contradicting this verse:

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power"

That applies to all redeemed by the Atonement. What applies to those in verses 12-15 is that they are dead and cast into the LOF.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't discuss anything with folks on a Christian website that don't believe the inspired word of God.

Translation: You are not able to defend your beliefs and back up your claims with scripture.

I believe the inspired word of God. It's very clear that you have nothing to teach me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those verses do not resurrect the dead. They are still dead, not given life.

Those who destroy the earth are dead in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are dead when destroyed, and still dead 1,000 years later as dead before the GWT. They are never resurrected, unless they are granted eternal life, and then they certainly don't enter the LOF, but have been blessed with the first resurrection. All those with a first resurrection are blessed and the second death in the LOF has no power over them.

You keep breaking and contradicting this verse:

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power"

That applies to all redeemed by the Atonement. What applies to those in verses 12-15 is that they are dead and cast into the LOF.

Why do you not take other scripture into account when interpreting Revelation 20:11-15? Jesus said that all of the dead will be resurrected, including all of the unsaved. Your interpretation contradicts what Jesus taught here:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Scripture tells us that the unsaved dead will be resurrected first before being condemned. Just because Revelation 20:11-15 doesn't specifically mention their resurrection doesn't mean they are not resurrected. The dead being judged/condemned in Revelation 20:11-15 are "the rest of the dead" that John said would be resurrected after the thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

You should not need everything to be spelled out for you. You need to learn to take all of scripture into account. Not all details of an event are given in every passages related to that event. So, while Revelation 20:11-15 does not specifically mention the resurrection of the dead who are judged at that time, other scripture tells us that they will be resurrected. Your approach of interpreting a given passage in isolation from other scripture is not a wise one.

 

[Timtofly]

Why do you not take other scripture into account when interpreting Revelation 20:11-15? Jesus said that all of the dead will be resurrected, including all of the unsaved. Your interpretation contradicts what Jesus taught here:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Scripture tells us that the unsaved dead will be resurrected first before being condemned. Just because Revelation 20:11-15 doesn't specifically mention their resurrection doesn't mean they are not resurrected. The dead being judged/condemned in Revelation 20:11-15 are "the rest of the dead" that John said would be resurrected after the thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

You should not need everything to be spelled out for you. You need to learn to take all of scripture into account. Not all details of an event are given in every passages related to that event. So, while Revelation 20:11-15 does not specifically mention the resurrection of the dead who are judged at that time, other scripture tells us that they will be resurrected. Your approach of interpreting a given passage in isolation from other scripture is not a wise one.

Sheol is emptied out like a garbage bin. You can call that rising or falling. They stand as dead at the GWT.

 

[Taken]

Will there be or is there a need for a future Messianic age?
OP^

Yes.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sheol is emptied out like a garbage bin. You can call that rising or falling. They stand as dead at the GWT.

The context of John 5:28-29 is the bodily resurrection of the dead, which is obvious because it's talking about them coming out of their graves. How can someone be resurrected and still be dead? The dead will be resurrected and then judged. Just because Revelation 20:11-15 doesn't spell that out to you doesn't mean it's not true. It has to be true because Jesus Himself said it.

Also, I wonder how dead people can stand before the throne, as you believe will happen?

 

[Taken]

Those verses do not resurrect the dead. They are still dead, not given life.

Those who destroy the earth are dead in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are dead when destroyed, and still dead 1,000 years later as dead before the GWT. They are never resurrected, unless they are granted eternal life, and then they certainly don't enter the LOF, but have been blessed with the first resurrection. All those with a first resurrection are blessed and the second death in the LOF has no power over them.

You keep breaking and contradicting this verse:

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power"

That applies to all redeemed by the Atonement. What applies to those in verses 12-15 is that they are dead and cast into the LOF.

All are resurrected, saved and unsaved.
* Which means all (saved and unsaved) departed living souls return to their body’s ... and all (saved and unsaved):
* SHALL SEE, the Son of Man, (The Lord Jesus), Who comes with Power (Christ, the Power of God)....The JUDGE.
* ALL SHALL “see” and Believe.
* ALL SHALL “bow” down to Him (Worship) and Confess belief in God.
^^^ THAT fulfills Prophecy of Gods Testimony.

Isa 55:
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom 14:
[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Timtofly]

The context of John 5:28-29 is the bodily resurrection of the dead, which is obvious because it's talking about them coming out of their graves. How can someone be resurrected and still be dead? The dead will be resurrected and then judged. Just because Revelation 20:11-15 doesn't spell that out to you doesn't mean it's not true. It has to be true because Jesus Himself said it.

Also, I wonder how dead people can stand before the throne, as you believe will happen?

Can you point to a verse in Revelation 20 that states He calls souls out of sheol?

Sheol and Death are emptied out. Not called out.

 

[Timtofly]

The context of John 5:28-29 is the bodily resurrection of the dead, which is obvious because it's talking about them coming out of their graves. How can someone be resurrected and still be dead? The dead will be resurrected and then judged. Just because Revelation 20:11-15 doesn't spell that out to you doesn't mean it's not true. It has to be true because Jesus Himself said it.

Also, I wonder how dead people can stand before the throne, as you believe will happen?

You view the whole chapter as symbolic 1,000 years of the here and now and a very long time, and now you want a literal grave after heaven and earth no longer exist? You want literal Adamic corruptible dead flesh bodies? What happened to just spiritual dead souls? If they have bodies walking around in sheol, then they don't need a new body to be cast into the LOF do they? They don't need to have a body outside of time and creation either do they? Unless of course they all have Adam's dead corruptible flesh body in sheol. You can be as literal or symbolic for all that matter, but they don't have a resurrection unless they are going to skip the second death in the LOF and given eternal life.

Tell me how they are called out of their graves when that reality no longer exists. You don't even have that in Revelation 19, where they are all killed. I am not calling John 5:29 wrong. The resurrection of damnation is not the same thing as the resurrection of life is it?

You can call the dead standing at the GWT a resurrection to damnation. You cannot call it a resurrection to life, unless they are given life.

But you can add to the words and thoughts of Revelation all day long. Just don't accuse others they are wrong who don't feel so inclined to add words and thoughts to Revelation. Don't accuse others of being wrong who do not accept the human opinion of recapitulation or parallel views. Holding people to private opinion and interpretation outside of the Holy Spirit is what is an error in Amil eschatology.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Translation: You are not able to defend your beliefs and back up your claims with scripture.

I believe the inspired word of God. It's very clear that you have nothing to teach me.

It's never been my intention to teach you anything.
Go to the blind for teaching.
All my "teaching" quotes scripture directly, all of it.
My discussions with saints don't always use quotes because we know scripture, understand sound doctrine, and possess the means to look up and verify that what we say to each other is indeed verified by scripture, though the Witness within us affirms the truth and reveals error.
You have to know God to possess His Witness and His Witness is how we know Him.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can you point to a verse in Revelation 20 that states He calls souls out of sheol?

Sheol and Death are emptied out. Not called out.

This is your problem. You expect everything to be spelled out there in Revelation 20. John said in Revelation 20:5 that the rest of the dead will be resurrected after the thousand years. So, when do you think that happens? Do you not think Revelation 20:11-15 includes "the rest of the dead" that John referenced in verse 5?

You need to learn to interpret scripture with scripture. Jesus said the unsaved will be resurrected before being condemned. Why can't you accept that? Why does that need to be spelled out in Revelation 20 when we can see that in John 5:28-29? Not every passage about the day of judgment has all the same details. So, we need to look at all of them to see the big picture. This is clearly a foreign concept to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's never been my intention to teach you anything.

You said this:

I don't discuss anything with folks on a Christian website that don't believe the inspired word of God. I instruct them, or I hit the ignore button.

This came across that you think I "don't believe the inspired word of God" and that your intention is to either instruct or ignore me. So, I said you have nothing to teach me in response to you saying "I instruct them".