Will there be or is there a need for a future Messianic age?

[Davy]

Here is what Jesus said about it and what the Jews thought

Luke 19:41-44
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”

I suppose I missed that response...

Lord Jesus' prophesy about not one stone atop another shows a dual prophecy, not yet completed.

Reason is, because at the temple mount area in today's Jerusalem, there are still many huge stones standing atop one another, called the Western Wall, or Wailing Wall, the old temple mount structures during the 2nd temple. And that's not even to mention the Dome of The Rock structure.

When Lord Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives in our near future, the great valley to be formed there when His feet touch down will probably destroy any and all... structures in that area of the temple mount. That's the real event in Matthew 24 with the time of not one stone atop another there. He was giving the 7 main Signs of the end leading up to His future coming, not really events for 70 A.D.

The danger of assigning those Signs in Christ's Olivet discourse to 70 A.D. is with disregarding the purpose Lord Jesus gave us those Signs, so we'd be forewarned of the events leading up to His future return for the FINAL GENERATION that He said will 'see' all those things.

 

[Marty fox]

You read that into the text. All I read is that they are rewarded with the LOF.

All human works of righteousness are only filthy rags. I guess they can wear rags as rewards in the LOF.

What about the judgment and reward here:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Is that not souls standing before thrones, judged, and rewarded by ruling with Christ? Sounds better than being cast into the LOF.

Are the dead reigning with Christ in the LOF?

Except that the book of life was also opened.

 

[Marty fox]

I suppose I missed that response...

Lord Jesus' prophesy about not one stone atop another shows a dual prophecy, not yet completed.

Reason is, because at the temple mount area in today's Jerusalem, there are still many huge stones standing atop one another, called the Western Wall, or Wailing Wall, the old temple mount structures during the 2nd temple. And that's not even to mention the Dome of The Rock structure.

When Lord Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives in our near future, the great valley to be formed there when His feet touch down will probably destroy any and all... structures in that area of the temple mount. That's the real event in Matthew 24 with the time of not one stone atop another there. He was giving the 7 main Signs of the end leading up to His future coming, not really events for 70 A.D.

The danger of assigning those Signs in Christ's Olivet discourse to 70 A.D. is with disregarding the purpose Lord Jesus gave us those Signs, so we'd be forewarned of the events leading up to His future return for the FINAL GENERATION that He said will 'see' all those things.

Or the no stones left on top of another could be symbolic for total destruction since the temple was destroyed within that generation. God often uses symbolism so that different generations and cultures can all understand them.

In the verse below do you really think that literal hearts actually melted or was it symbolic for fear and anxiety?

Isiah 13:17
Because of this, all hands will go limp, every heart will melt with fear.

 

[Timtofly]

Except that the book of life was also opened.

The book of life is the Atonement Covenant of the Cross. Every human started out in the book before creation.

After the Second Coming, when the 7th Seal is opened, names start being removed. The goats are removed from the Lamb's book of life. The tares are removed from the Lamb's book of life. That is the final harvest of the Trumpets and Thunders. Then when people receive the mark, they are removed from the Lamb's book of life.

After the 1,000 years, those in sheol will be removed, if they still reject God's Atonement Covenant. That is why the Lamb's book of life is there. To remove the names of those in sheol who have been waiting since the Flood of Noah's day.

 

[Marty fox]

The book of life is the Atonement Covenant of the Cross. Every human started out in the book before creation.

After the Second Coming, when the 7th Seal is opened, names start being removed. The goats are removed from the Lamb's book of life. The tares are removed from the Lamb's book of life. That is the final harvest of the Trumpets and Thunders. Then when people receive the mark, they are removed from the Lamb's book of life.

After the 1,000 years, those in sheol will be removed, if they still reject God's Atonement Covenant. That is why the Lamb's book of life is there. To remove the names of those in sheol who have been waiting since the Flood of Noah's day.

So if peoples names are removed from the book of life when they take the mark can John 3:16 still be true?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No I haven’t except that they says that it’s not the same timing

Which means they're saying the dead being judged is not the same thing as the dead being judged. Hmmm.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What verse states rewards handed out to the living at the GWT?

Keep in mind that the original manuscripts did not have chapter breaks, so the description of who is there at that time does not end with Revelation 20:15. As believers, we will be rewarded with inheriting the new heavens and new earth and being with the Lord there forever, right? That is described right after Revelation 20:11-15 in Revelation 21:1-5. So, Revelation 20:11-15 focuses on the condemning of unbelievers while Revelation 21:1-5 focuses on the rewards for believers. Both things will happen at generally the same time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Since we are talking about eschatology instead of soteriology, I guess we are safe to say there is still a future millennial kingdom on earth.

No, you are not safe to say that at all. Many people relate soteriology as it relates to the Jews to eschatology and combine the two, so I was addressing that. I'm sure everyone else here besides you can see that is what I was doing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, that's true and that's what the texts say. The only question I have is: what is "judging the dead?" Is it the defeat of Antichrist or the GWTJ?

It's judging the dead, just like it says. What happened to your normal approach of reading the text as written in this case? How can judging the dead possibly equate to "the defeat of Antichrist"?

If you look at this objectively then the judging of the dead is...the judging of the dead, which undeniably is described in Revelation 20:11-15. The seventh trumpet also signals the time when those who destroy the earth are destroyed (Rev 11:18). Is that going to happen more than once? I don't believe so, but Premil has that happening both at Christ's return and again 1000+ years later.

 

[DavidTaylor]

The Premillennialism view has issues with considering or accepting the judgment of Rev 19 and the judgment of Rev 20 could be recapitulations of the same single final judgment; and choose to force a chronology between 19 and 20.

But if the bible student avoids taking the premised assumption, and carefully looks throughout all chapters of Revelation for when the judgment is described, they can see fairly quickly from the scriptures that Revelation describes the judgment across many recapitulating chapters, and often associates it to the fall of Babylon and the winepress of Almighty God.

Interpretting these scriptures the same way Premill forces 19 and 20 to be chronological, would generate a half-dozen judgments, falls of Babylon, and winepress of wrath.

Revelation Chapter 11:15,18
“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great”


Rev Chapter 14: 7, 19 “Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and thefountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.”


Rev Chapter 16:19 “And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.”


Rev Chapter 18: 10 “Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.”


Rev Chapter 19:11, 15b “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”


Rev Chapter 20: 11 “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.”

 

[Randy Kluth]

It's judging the dead, just like it says. What happened to your normal approach of reading the text as written in this case? How can judging the dead possibly equate to "the defeat of Antichrist"?

I take "judging the dead" literally, just as I take the Millennium literally, because there is nothing about it demanding it be taken symbolically. But to judge the dead can mean to determine who they are and where they will go. To judge the wicked can mean to kill them or to send them into the Lake of Fire. It is context that determines how "judge" is used.

God judges the wicked during the reign of Antichrist. He defeats them and destroys them. That is judgment.

If you look at this objectively then the judging of the dead is...the judging of the dead, which undeniably is described in Revelation 20:11-15. The seventh trumpet also signals the time when those who destroy the earth are destroyed (Rev 11:18). Is that going to happen more than once? I don't believe so, but Premil has that happening both at Christ's return and again 1000+ years later.

Yes, I take the two separate events literally. Nothing there to force me to take them symbolically.

 

[Davy]

Or the no stones left on top of another could be symbolic for total destruction since the temple was destroyed within that generation. God often uses symbolism so that different generations and cultures can all understand them.

Once again, the 'generation' Jesus was speaking of is the 'final' generation that will SEE His future coming, because He linked ALL those Signs He gave with the generation that will see His coming. So when someone 'tries'... to push those Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse backwards in time, to the generation of His 1st coming, or at 70 A.D., then they are changing what He said, and also reveal that they do not have a clue about the future events of His 2nd coming.

 

[Timtofly]

So if peoples names are removed from the book of life when they take the mark can John 3:16 still be true?

John 3:16 is always true.

Can humans reject God? John 3:16 is still true when God reprobates one's mind per Romans 1.

Why do you think God's will has to override human choice?

Sin is not humans compromising God's will. Sin is the punishment allowed by God, so humans have an excuse not to accept God's perfect will.

The Atonement of the Cross was God's will. But only accepting that Atonement is conforming to God's Will.

 

[Marty fox]

John 3:16 is always true.

Can humans reject God? John 3:16 is still true when God reprobates one's mind per Romans 1.

Why do you think God's will has to override human choice?

Sin is not humans compromising God's will. Sin is the punishment allowed by God, so humans have an excuse not to accept God's perfect will.

The Atonement of the Cross was God's will. But only accepting that Atonement is conforming to God's Will.

My point isn't will people or not its Can people repent? According to John 3:16 (which is always true) they can thus the mark can't be a literal mark.

 

[Timtofly]

Keep in mind that the original manuscripts did not have chapter breaks, so the description of who is there at that time does not end with Revelation 20:15. As believers, we will be rewarded with inheriting the new heavens and new earth and being with the Lord there forever, right? That is described right after Revelation 20:11-15 in Revelation 21:1-5. So, Revelation 20:11-15 focuses on the condemning of unbelievers while Revelation 21:1-5 focuses on the rewards for believers. Both things will happen at generally the same time.

Well verse 4 says that some believers are rewarded 1,000 years prior to the GWT. In God's perspective that is relatively about the same time. We are not God, and according to you that 1,000 years could be 2,000 years, so how can you say it is relatively the same time?

Why are you denying the awards handed out a thousand years prior to the GWT?

Do you deny that eternal life has been the reward since the Cross? Can you give one verse where a judgment requires a resurrection before that judgment can be administered?

The verse claims it is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment. A resurrection is granted after the judgment. Your interpretation forces every one to be resurrected at the same time and then judged. Yet it seems that the reward is either to eternal life, a resurrection from death and an inheritance, or to eternal damnation, and no inheritance.

Those living in the New Jerusalem are already there, but it is currently called Paradise. They have been there since 30AD. They already enjoy their reward. John points out in Revelation 20:4 the dead already inherit the earth 1,000 years before the GWT. Now you reject that point for some reason. They are physically dead, they stand before thrones and judged. They already have the two requirements of death and judgment experienced, and the reward is being given life and reigning on earth 1,000 years with Christ. They already inherited the earth. Just like the church has already inherited Paradise, that heavenly city that Abraham waited for. Paradise was obtained 1992 years ago. All Revelation 21 does is change the name, and gives it an upgrade allowing it to sit on a new earth, which is totally different from current earth, because that city would take up a lot of real estate on this earth. The new earth seems much bigger.

However Revelation 20:4-6 already gives an earthly inheritance to those who died, and were judged. Unless you assume they inherited Paradise, and the earth was empty for those 1,000 years? Oh, that's right; you avoid the point they were judged, and change the whole context to a totally different resurrection, where Jesus must have been judged in that judgment by those thrones set up. There is already a judgment in the same chapter, without pointing out the next chapter.

You do realize that once New Jerusalem is on earth, it is no longer that unobserved heavenly city Abraham longed for? Being planted firmly on the earth was not part of that expectation. So either Abraham has already received the expectation, or was credited with the wrong expectation. For the last 1992 years the church also longed for that heavenly city, yet they received that expectation immediately, no longer having to wait in Abraham's bosom. That point seems to be missing from most eschatology of the last few hundred years. Could it be that the earthly inheritance Jesus taught about in the first century is only for those alive at His Second Coming, when He personally chooses the sheep and wheat currently alive on earth? All those people you claim who will be incinerated at the Second Coming.

 

[marks]

If that were true, we'd be observing the Feast of Tabernacles every year. Do you?

That's a good observation!

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

My point isn't will people or not its Can people repent? According to John 3:16 (which is always true) they can thus the mark can't be a literal mark.

The point of the mark is the point of rejection. That is a reprobate mind. One can repent, up until that repentance is taken out of the equation. The mark is demanding God leave them alone and they can never repent after that point. John 3:16 is true, even when billions of souls are currently in sheol. Do you think they can repent and escape the LOF?

Is John 3:16 still true with many in the LOF? How is living on earth different than existing in the LOF. Still the same lost condition.

Do you expect John 3:16 to ever stop being true?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I take "judging the dead" literally, just as I take the Millennium literally, because there is nothing about it demanding it be taken symbolically. But to judge the dead can mean to determine who they are and where they will go. To judge the wicked can mean to kill them or to send them into the Lake of Fire. It is context that determines how "judge" is used.

Yes, I suppose the act of physically destroying the wicked can be seen as a form of judgment, but we are talking about the judging of the dead here. They are already dead, so it's not referring to the judgment of the living by way of physically killing them.

God judges the wicked during the reign of Antichrist. He defeats them and destroys them. That is judgment.

But, is that a judgment of the dead? No. You are talking about God judging the living by killing them. That is not a judgment of the dead. A description of judging the dead implies that the ones being judged were dead and then are resurrected to be judged just as passages like Daniel 12:1-2, John 5:28-29 and Revelation 20:11-15 are about. If you looked at this objectively, then you should see that there's no basis for seeing the judging of the dead in any different context than what is shown in Revelation 20:11-15.

Yes, I take the two separate events literally. Nothing there to force me to take them symbolically.

Two separate events of judging the dead? Why would that occur? Why not judge the dead once? Seems much more efficient that way.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well verse 4 says that some believers are rewarded 1,000 years prior to the GWT.

Where does it say that? What is their reward exactly?

Why are you denying the awards handed out a thousand years prior to the GWT?

Because that isn't taught in scripture. But, you're welcome to show me where it is taught, if you can.

Do you deny that eternal life has been the reward since the Cross?

The hope of eternal life is what we currently have. We don't actually inherit eternal life until Christ returns, as Matthew 25:31-46 indicates.

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.......46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Can you give one verse where a judgment requires a resurrection before that judgment can be administered?

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Those who are still alive when Christ returns won't have to be resurrected and they will be rewarded. But, scripture makes it clear that they will be rewarded at the same time as the dead in Christ when Christ returns (1 Thess 4:14-17).

The verse claims it is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment. A resurrection is granted after the judgment. Your interpretation forces every one to be resurrected at the same time and then judged.

All of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time, according to Jesus in John 5:28-29. But, believers who "are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" obviously won't need to be resurrected since they won't die but instead will be changed to have immortal bodies at that point (1 Cor 15:50-54).

Yet it seems that the reward is either to eternal life, a resurrection from death and an inheritance, or to eternal damnation, and no inheritance.

Those living in the New Jerusalem are already there, but it is currently called Paradise. They have been there since 30AD. They already enjoy their reward.

Not in terms of having immortal bodies on the new heavens and new earth for eternity. They are still waiting for that reward.

John points out in Revelation 20:4 the dead already inherit the earth 1,000 years before the GWT.

Where is that stated in Revelation 20:4? I don't think you're reading Revelation 20:4 very carefully. I can't find anything that says what you think it says there.

Now you reject that point for some reason.

Because there is nothing stated in that verse that the dead inherit the earth at that point. You are making that up.

They are physically dead, they stand before thrones and judged.

Where does it say they are judged at that point? You are making a lot of assumptions here.

I don't feel like reading any more of your post. I just disagree with you on everything.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If that were true, we'd be observing the Feast of Tabernacles every year. Do you?

Did Jesus make it so that people didn't need to go to Jerusalem to worship and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles only to inexplicably make that a requirement again in the future?

John 4:19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Jesus indicated from that time on "true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth". But, you say that people will be required again to go to Jerusalem to worship and keep the feast of tabernacles? That contradicts what Jesus taught.