Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.

[Dave L]

On Himself. When God said why He loved Israel, He tells them it was because He loved them. No other reason was given or needed.

So Israel was lovable in and of themselves? I prefer to say God is love and he set his love on those he hated, giving them a new nature that he could love subjectively.

 

[Dave L]

But He didn’t randomly elect anyone. It wasn’t like some sort of election lottery where He spun a wheel.

So he chose the self-righteous?

 

[justbyfaith]

You are taking God’s electing love and twisting it in a futile attempt to make it, and conversely Him, look bad.

What I am doing does not make God look bad because what I am protesting is not an accurate description of God.

Grace started when the Son was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Grace started before God said ”Let there be light.”

From the perspective of eternity. From the perspective of time (and foreknowledge), the catalyst for our standing in grace is our faith.

 

[Dave L]

Ppl can use arbitrarily and capricious interchangeably. Is God capricious?

You are making far too much out of this.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So Israel was lovable in and of themselves? I prefer to say God is love and he set his love on those he hated, giving them a new nature that he could love subjectively.

He just told them He loved them because He loved them. There was nothing in them(Israel) that was missing in other nations. That would make Him a respector of persons.

 

[Dave L]

He just told them He loved them because He loved them. There was nothing in them(Israel) that was missing in other nations. That would make Him a respector of Persons.

As though they had value and were lovable?

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are making far too much out of this.

I am just cautioning ppl to be careful with what words to use. If I said God arbitrarily elected ppl, that can be misconstrued as God being capricious. That’s all I am saying.

 

[justbyfaith]

Ppl can use arbitrarily and capricious interchangeably. Is God capricious?

Both Allah and the god of Calvinism are capricious; they will likely be together in the forming of the prophesied one-world religion.

 

[Dave L]

I am just cautioning ppl to be careful with what words to use. If I said God arbitrarily elected ppl, that can be misconstrued as God being capricious. That’s all I am saying.

That's OK, but I think you are missing the point that anything lovable in people robs God of his glory in setting his love on those whom he hates.

 

[SovereignGrace]

As though they had value and were lovable?

No my Brother. I am not saying that at all.

”The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”[Deuteronomy 7:7-8]

The LORD does not give a reason why He loved Israel other than He loved them. This is unconditional election, as we both know the remnant(both elected Jews and Gentiles) are the vessels of mercy in Romans 9.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Both Allah and the god of Calvinism are capricious; they will likely be together in the forming of the prophesied one-world religion.

And with this, I wash my hands with you and shake off the dust of my shoes. Au revoir.

 

[Dave L]

No my Brother. I am not saying that at all.

”The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.”[Deuteronomy 7:7-8]

The LORD does not give a reason why He loved Israel other than He loved them. This is unconditional election, as we both know the remnant(both elected Jews and Gentiles) are the vessels of mercy in Romans 9.

You are confusing Israel's national election, which also sent them to hell with even worse sins to pay for, with election for salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

And with this, I wash my hands with you and shake off the dust of my shoes. Au revoir.

Okay, Pontius.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That's OK, but I think you are missing the point that anything lovable in people robs God of his glory in setting his love on those whom he hates.

There is nothing lovable in either elect or non-elect. God loves His elect based upon Himself, not what is in them.

 

[Dave L]

There is nothing lovable in either elect or non-elect. God loves His elect based upon Himself, not what is in them.

So arbitrary election makes sense after all?

 

[SovereignGrace]

You are confusing Israel's national election, which also sent them to hell with even worse sins to pay for, with election for salvation.

What I am saying is the remnant are the elect. The remnant of OT Jews were the elect, too. The nation of Israel was elected to take His word throughout the land, but not every Israelite made up the elect.

 

[Dave L]

What I am saying is the remnant are the elect. The remnant of OT Jews were the elect, too. The nation of Israel was elected to take His word throughout the land, but not every Israelite made up the elect.

You still confuse the physical with the spiritual.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So arbitrary election makes sense after all?

If my understanding of arbitrary is correct, no. But maybe I am wrong?

 

[SovereignGrace]

You still confuse the physical with the spiritual.

No. Only the remnant made up the elect, correct? Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;[Romans 9:27] The promise made to Abraham was “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”[Genesis 15:5] We both know that not every Jew born of Abraham’s lineage made up the elect. It was the remnant that made up the elect.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So arbitrary election makes sense after all?

1Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.

‘an arbitrary decision’

Did God chose His elect on a personal whim, rather than any reason or system? I’d have to say no.


(of power or a ruling body) unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority.

‘a country under arbitrary government’

Now, here is where I may have been wrong, as I never thought of arbitrary being used this way.

So, my apology to you Brother Dave.

I got these from arbitrary | Definition of arbitrary in English by Oxford Dictionaries