Women's rule or men abdicating their God commanded role?

[Arthur81]

God's judgment now on the USA is frequently attributed to the LGBTQ movement, abortion and the 'woke' nonsense of today. I am convinced the fall of the USA at its foundation is because of the rejection of God's commands on the role of women in home, Church and State. Yes, this is stirring the hornet's nest, but it is clear Christian teaching from the Bible and needs to be stated. Unless things change, the claim "America's best days are ahead" is a lie!

This post will stir a hornets nest among those for whom the scriptures are not the infallible word of God. First, the Bible is God's inerrant word to man, our rule. It is clearly stated so -

"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." (2Pet 1:20-21 RSV)

"To change God's holy Word by explaining it in terms of human philosophy, pagan thought, or anti-Christian religions is blasphemy." Biblical Interpretation the Only Right Way, by David Kuske

The clear, explicit role of women in regard to man is clearly stated from creation, in the Old Covenant and now continuing in the New Covenant. The scriptures and the church have taught it for centuries and the twisted hermeneutics of feminists cannot change that.

I speak of that rule of God as Martin Luther phrased it in the 16th century, as recorded in his commentary on Genesis 3:16 -

"Wherefore the rule and government of all things remain in the power of the husband whom the wife according to the command of God is bound to obey. The husband rules the house, governs the state politic, conducts wars, defends his own property, cultivates the earth, builds, plants, etc."

John Calvin writes on 1 Tim. 2:13 -

"Since, therefore, God did not create two chiefs of equal power, but added to the man an inferior aid, the Apostle justly reminds us of that order of creation in which the eternal and inviolable appointment of God is strikingly displayed."

John Knox did not hesitate at all to voice his understanding of scripture on women. He wrote a tract or small booklet "The First Blast of the Trumpet against the monstrous regiment of Women". In that day "regiment" meant rule. It can be read online -

The First Blast of the Trumpet against the monstrous regiment of Women, by John Knox

That was the understanding of the church of Jesus Christ, and was still largely practiced in my memory as late as the 1950s. By "the church of Jesus Christ" I refer to those who believe God's word as originally given was without error and our translations today are extremely accurate. In addition, "the church of Jesus Christ" accepts the Bible as God's word given to men, NOT man's word and reasoning about God. The scriptures are explicit -

Gn 3:16; Eccl 7:28-29; Isa 3:12, 16-17; Amos 4:1-2; 1 Cor 11:7-9; 14:34-36; Eph 5:22-25; 1 Tim 2:11-14; 1 Pet 3:1-6

God in his providence at times "raised up" a woman for rule or leadership; but never in all of scripture are we commanded to choose or elect a woman for leadership in Church or State.

There were occurrences and actions of God prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD with women. Peter quotes Joel 28:28-32 as recorded in Acts 2. What is the timing given for that?

"I will show portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes." (Joel 2:30-31 NRSV)

How do we know that is referring to 70AD and not the last day? The parallel use of the exact phrase -

"Lo, I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes. He will turn the hearts of parents to their children and the hearts of children to their parents, so that I will not come and strike the land with a curse." (Mal 4:5-6 NRSV)

John the Baptist is the "Elijah" spoken of according to Jesus -

For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John came; and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. Let anyone with ears listen! (Matt 11:13-15 NRSV)

Feminism is apostasy for it rejects the explicit commands of scripture and 1800 years of church belief and practice based upon those scriptures. It may be significant in the progression of sin in Romans One, the corruption of the women is listed before the corruption of men, v26.

 

[Wynona]

I agree that women turning to feminism and refusing the biblical command to be "keepers at home" (Titus 2) has done society no favors.

Feminism has encouraged abortion, sexual promiscuity, and women competing with their spouses instead of supporting them. When no one wants to keep the home, children feel the effects: lower quality food, less quality time and instruction, higher risk of being molested and raped.

I am no longer convinced that homemaking is this luxury for just a few women or that two incomes should be the standard. We are replaceable at work but irreplaceable as wives and mothers. What if the best way to make a difference in the world at large is to simply go home and be there for our own families?

So yes, the world hates this but it needs to be addressed.

 

[Rita]

Welcome to the forum - potentially stirring a hornets nest, but it’s been stirred before.
I think the whole issue of Gods judgment is best left to God with regards to why things are happening and what is the cause, and who to blame.
The whole issue of the roles of men and women didn’t just begin with women fighting for their rights, has it occurred to you that that fact that men abused their own responsibilities and demanded submission in the wrong way - what about the effects of that within societies over the years. ( and I am going way back ) Men also have biblical responsibilities , what about the issue of unfaithfulness, chasing power and money ………..accountability applies to both men and women.
We live in a fallen world and therefore sin permeates so many things, but the wrong choices have been made by all mankind. Its effects are ongoing and will continue ………
’ If my people would humble themselves I would heal their land ‘ - Humility starts with the individual, rather than pinning the blame on others, it requires us to look at ourselves.…….

If you wish to blame women, fine, if you want to presume that it started with women leaders in the church, fine…….but personally there is a whole lot of history and a whole lot of other choices that contributed to where we are today. ………..

 

[ButterflyJones]

"THEY CALL ME A FEMINIST BECAUSE I REFUSE TO BE A DOORMAT"

Paul was a Feminist? Paul stated we are all one in Christ. The divisive roles of before, male, female, Greek, Jew, were done away with. Because we are all one in Christ.

The Truth of God in Christ has been active across the earth for over 2000 years.
America has been called a Christian Nation. The current state of the world and America cannot be laid at the feet of women.

By God's will and design Satan is lord of the earth.

While God is ever sovereign.
Blaming women is a cop out.

 

[Rita]

"THEY CALL ME A FEMINIST BECAUSE I REFUSE TO BE A DOORMAT"

Paul was a Feminist? Paul stated we are all one in Christ. The divisive roles of before, male, female, Greek, Jew, were done away with. Because we are all one in Christ.

The Truth of God in Christ has been active across the earth for over 2000 years.
America has been called a Christian Nation. The current state of the world and America cannot be laid at the feet of women.

By God's will and design Satan is lord of the earth.

While God is ever sovereign.
Blaming women is a cop out.

Love your opening quote xxxxxx
I ditto what you have said

 

[Patrick1966]

I am convinced the fall of the USA at its
I have afoundation is because of the rejection of God's commands on the role of women in home, Church and State.

In general, people reject God's roles for us along with his commandments. It's not just women that have ignored God. Actually, I have the impression that more women (as a percentage) are closer to God than men.

 

[Arthur81]

I agree that women turning to feminism and refusing the biblical command to be "keepers at home" (Titus 2) has done society no favors.

Feminism has encouraged abortion, sexual promiscuity, and women competing with their spouses instead of supporting them. When no one wants to keep the home, children feel the effects: lower quality food, less quality time and instruction, higher risk of being molested and raped.

I am no longer convinced that homemaking is this luxury for just a few women or that two incomes should be the standard. We are replaceable at work but irreplaceable as wives and mothers. What if the best way to make a difference in the world at large is to simply go home and be there for our own families?

So yes, the world hates this but it needs to be addressed.

Wynona, I like your response, it is encouraging. It brings to my mind a question I remember from years ago, "Are you a working woman, or a housewife?" To which the godly lady would reply, "I'm a homemaker, a wife to my husband not wife to a house, and I'm mother to my children. So, yes indeed, I am a working woman!" Also, the godly husband loves and appreciates his wife if he is fulfilling his role!

 

[Arthur81]

I'm amazed at how many people you'd think would know better, will accept Gal. 3:28 without question as removing the God-assigned roles of men and women. To use that verse as canceling out God-given roles is either ignorance or worse. The verse itself makes that a ridiculous deception because the verse refutes that application -

"There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." (Gal 3:28 NRSV)

The 1st century slave would be most happily surprised that his function or role had been cancelled and there were no longer these roles, slave and slave holder. The verse is teaching about the oneness of those "in Christ", not some modern canceling of God-assigned roles. The phrase "in Christ" is found 91 times in the NRSV NT so it is possible to see what the phrase means, if they care what God says about it. Earlier in Galatians Paul writes -

"...yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law." (Gal 2:16 NRSV)

"...for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith." (Gal 3:26 NRSV)

Paul in Romans makes clear what the oneness refers to, and what it does not mean -

"For as in one body we have many members, and not all the members have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another." (Rom 12:4-5 NRSV)

It is inexcusable to not use the Bible software and read and learn the meaning of being "in Christ" and the oneness involved.

Then there is the emotionally charged bumper sticker "I'm a feminist not a doormat!" Typical of such vague statements of feelings, it lacks specificity. Just what biblically commanded role for women do feminists regard as making women a doormat? I find that in Islam, and somewhat in the Pharisee approach prior to the 1st advent of Jesus. Jesus elevated women and appreciated women and never made them a doormat. It was women who came to find the tomb empty. The women who came to him during his ministry on earth were treated with kindness and respect. It was Priscilla the wife who seemed to be the one instructing Apollos in the home, more fully in the gospel. It was Timothy's grandmother Lois who taught him the faith. The Bible never demeans the role given to women.

In the title of my OP, is it submissive men abdicating their role, or the aggression of women that is at fault. That is a "which came first, the chicken or the egg argument". Maybe we can attribute the modern push for feminism to the heretic Charles G. Finney whose theology infected the church and began making women more prominent. Then later in the 19th century feminists perverted the Bible text in order to support their apostasy -

"The Woman's Bible, a critique of Christianity produced in the 1890s by American suffragist Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1815–1902), is regarded as an important founding moment in Christian feminism. Today, feminist theological reflection includes academic scholarship as well as literature, music, liturgy, and a range of insights drawn from the exploration of women's experiences in many different contexts. Although feminist theology is not simply another form of liberation theology, its challenge to the oppression and exploitation of women gives it a strongly liberationist perspective."

Feminist Theology: Christian Feminist Theology | Encyclopedia.com

FEMINIST THEOLOGY: CHRISTIAN FEMINIST THEOLOGY Christianity's encounter with feminism might be one of the most significant revolutions ever to happen within the Christian tradition, rivaling the impact of the early councils or the reformation in its implications for the future of Christian...

www.encyclopedia.com

Men indeed have their responsibilities and their God-given roles, and one is to LOVE their wives. The roles do not indicate inferiority in their essence as humans in justification by faith, before God -

"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ." (1Cor 11:3 NRSV)

There are roles in the economic Trinity where God the Father is head of Jesus the Christ, and that same type relationship exists between man and wife. "God shows no partiality" in matters of salvation! All are one in Christ.

 

[Rita]

Just to add some context to my posts and the posts I liked.
I came to faith three years into a marriage, my husband never came to faith in the 27years of us being together. I respected my role as his wife and homemaker and being a mum. I was submissive unless his decisions went against the law ( and they did sometimes ) However to many I was a doormat at times , and often felt that way because he was not governed by scripture. He was unfaithful , and it wasn’t until we divorced that I discovered to what extent.
He has since passed away and I am free to follow the Lord with much more freedom.
I also ministered in.a Christian divorce recovery group and the way that many women were treated under the guise of submission was appalling - in a good and healthy marriage submission is out of respect and value on both sides.
Sadly many were treated like doormats !

 

[Arthur81]

Just to add some context to my posts and the posts I liked.
I came to faith three years into a marriage, my husband never came to faith in the 27years of us being together. I respected my role as his wife and homemaker and being a mum. I was submissive unless his decisions went against the law ( and they did sometimes ) However to many I was a doormat at times , and often felt that way because he was not governed by scripture. He was unfaithful , and it wasn’t until we divorced that I discovered to what extent.
He has since passed away and I am free to follow the Lord with much more freedom.
I also ministered in.a Christian divorce recovery group and the way that many women were treated under the guise of submission was appalling - in a good and healthy marriage submission is out of respect and value on both sides.
Sadly many were treated like doormats !

Rita, thank you for your reply adding context and perspective to your original reply. This brings up the danger of using labels, even though we are often forced to do so. What a word means in one person's mind is completely different from another person's understanding of the label. I apologize to you as a sister in Christ, and hope you will forgive me for applying my idea, in a general way, of feminist to you as if you were representative of feminism.

Your reply does bring up the difficulty of living in a very fallen and complicated world, where circumstances often present great difficulty in how to align oneself with the perfect design of God as in the creation. Some of our circumstances are without cause or our understanding, but some of our difficulties come from our previous wrong choices. I know I have made many wrong choices in life and have struggled to correct the results. But, I believe Jesus gave us a pattern, or model approach on how to handle things in this world. I quote from when the Pharisees, trying to trick Jesus about divorce, and I quote -

"And there came unto him Pharisees, trying him, and saying, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery." (Matt 19:3-9 ASV)

That seems quite clear that while divorce was certainly not in accordance with God's perfect design at creation, in a fallen world it can happen that a spouse is unfaithful to the other. That breaks the marriage vow or covenant and Jesus clearly gives permission to the offended spouse to divorce, and Jesus does not permit sin. I believe Paul expands that to include desertion and I believe a strong case can be made that the abuse of a spouse at some point will justify the option of divorce for the spouse that is hurt.

I do not believe Jesus would restrict this solely to the question of divorce and the concept could be applied to other situations in life. Some caused by no one's fault, but sometimes due to an error or bad choice. In our fallen world we encounter many things in our lives that present a dilemma. For the sincere believer, I am convinced that the solution the concerned party has in the situation they face, can only, and ultimately be between that person and the Lord. I find this is where the warning against judging comes in. We are never to judge the state of salvation of another other than blatant and obvious apostasy from the truth in action. Then how can we judge another in their difficult situation, not having lived in that person's shoes?

The scriptures do not address every specific situation the child God may encounter in life, but I'm convinced there are general principles in scripture that will give a moral approach or answer to the difficulty in this fallen world. I believe Romans 14 covers this as well as the warning in Jesus' words:

“Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye.'" (Matt 7:1-5 NRSV)

The Christian does of course have some discernment and can see sinful thoughts and actions, but applying our discernment to others can be dangerous and judging them is usually wrong, sinful. I hope other serious believers will add to this discussion. A 'one on one' dialogue is too narrow and a group discussion would be better. Oh, "mum", so you are in the UK?

 

[Jack]

Many 'Christian' husbands are like dictators. No wonder women have rebelled!

Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,

 

[Rita]

Rita, thank you for your reply adding context and perspective to your original reply. This brings up the danger of using labels, even though we are often forced to do so. What a word means in one person's mind is completely different from another person's understanding of the label. I apologize to you as a sister in Christ, and hope you will forgive me for applying my idea, in a general way, of feminist to you as if you were representative of feminism.

Your reply does bring up the difficulty of living in a very fallen and complicated world, where circumstances often present great difficulty in how to align oneself with the perfect design of God as in the creation. Some of our circumstances are without cause or our understanding, but some of our difficulties come from our previous wrong choices. I know I have made many wrong choices in life and have struggled to correct the results. But, I believe Jesus gave us a pattern, or model approach on how to handle things in this world. I quote from when the Pharisees, trying to trick Jesus about divorce, and I quote -

"And there came unto him Pharisees, trying him, and saying, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh? So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery." (Matt 19:3-9 ASV)

That seems quite clear that while divorce was certainly not in accordance with God's perfect design at creation, in a fallen world it can happen that a spouse is unfaithful to the other. That breaks the marriage vow or covenant and Jesus clearly gives permission to the offended spouse to divorce, and Jesus does not permit sin. I believe Paul expands that to include desertion and I believe a strong case can be made that the abuse of a spouse at some point will justify the option of divorce for the spouse that is hurt.

I do not believe Jesus would restrict this solely to the question of divorce and the concept could be applied to other situations in life. Some caused by no one's fault, but sometimes due to an error or bad choice. In our fallen world we encounter many things in our lives that present a dilemma. For the sincere believer, I am convinced that the solution the concerned party has in the situation they face, can only, and ultimately be between that person and the Lord. I find this is where the warning against judging comes in. We are never to judge the state of salvation of another other than blatant and obvious apostasy from the truth in action. Then how can we judge another in their difficult situation, not having lived in that person's shoes?

The scriptures do not address every specific situation the child God may encounter in life, but I'm convinced there are general principles in scripture that will give a moral approach or answer to the difficulty in this fallen world. I believe Romans 14 covers this as well as the warning in Jesus' words:

“Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye.'" (Matt 7:1-5 NRSV)

The Christian does of course have some discernment and can see sinful thoughts and actions, but applying our discernment to others can be dangerous and judging them is usually wrong, sinful. I hope other serious believers will add to this discussion. A 'one on one' dialogue is too narrow and a group discussion would be better. Oh, "mum", so you are in the UK?

Yes I am in the UK xx
Thank you for your response, I would go along with what you have conveyed.
Oh I equally have made wrong choices, many that led me into my marriage - however the Lord coming into my life enabled me to cope with so many issues and despite all that happened Romans 8:28 is a solid truth.
I would say I am not a strong feminist, but I do believe that things needed to change.
As to women in leadership roles , well I have always believed in the cultural context of scripture. I am sure others will debate with you, sadly these debates usually go round and round in circles - I get a bit dizzy !!! Lol

 

[ScottA]

The purpose of gender before God, is one purpose.

God created mankind male and female as a demonstration or "image" of Himself, showing that mankind was taken out of God to be His helpmate. Thus, it is only the role of men and women to show forth that image that God has purposely caused as a form of revealing Himself and how it is we--mankind who have been taken out of God and are to leave our mother and father and be joined again with Him to become One. Such is the practice of marriage between a man and a woman, but more importantly, between mankind and God.

Now, if we understand this image and our assigned roles, it may seem that there is no further need for the role playing, as it was never really about men and women who are equally taken out of God and are to return and become One again, making men and women not different but alike. But what then of others who have not yet come to this understanding--do we not continue the role playing for their sake, that they too--men and women alike, would have the same opportunity to come to the understanding of our intended relationship with God by our example as we had? Certainly, it is a choice, but choosing not to would be purely selfish and against God who has intended it so.

 

[MatthewG]

It's a wonderful thing that God has reconciled the world unto himself, and people simply have there choice today.