BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Yeah, if someone suggests that you might be confused that's always a sure sign that they're stupid.
What does it feel like to be nowhere in the vicinity of the shed at all?
.
Last edited:
Worship is the Core Issue as we see in Revelation
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Yeah, if someone suggests that you might be confused that's always a sure sign that they're stupid.
What does it feel like to be nowhere in the vicinity of the shed at all?
.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Have you not been paying attention?
There's no such thing as a "New Testament believer."
That's just a term somebody made up to try to convince himself he could wrestle loose from having to make Jesus his LORD as well as his Saviour.
.
Then stop standing facing a mirror. Your eyesight and brain must be failing because it seems that you cannot even remember what you look like when looking in the mirror.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I call it my 'elbows' getting in the way of someone's 'chin', as I swing my cup of decaf........
Mary is the same as the next person and to elevate her to the status of 'veneration' is idolatry to say nothing of praying to her or her having powers that only God has..
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
We are born sinless and innocent, but with a sin nature that tends toward sin at every opportunity. It is this sin nature that is dealt with at the cross, and are given a new born again nature as we accept Christ's resurrected life as our own.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I see worship not so much as something we do, although that plays a part, but rather as something we are. Not a state of doing, but a state of being, and it is what we are that motivates what we do.
There are secular people in the world who wouldn't dream of breaking God's commandments. While they might not keep them all, there are certainly some who would find utterly repugnant that they should cheat on their wife or husband, nor even consider looking upon any other to lust after them.
There are others who are meticulous in honesty, they would never lie , cheat on their taxes, nor steal from anyone.
There are others who are so content with their lives that covetousness may as well be a foreign language.
And there are still others who may do all of the above and also dote on their parents and love and care for them right up to the grave.
Yet none of this could be construed as worship. Obedience yes, but our righteousness is as filthy rags.
There are church-going people who sing hymns. Yet they then go home and beat their wives and watch pornography on television.
There are still others who 'religiously' attend church every week but live the rest of the week pursuing money, fame, and reputation at the expense of others. There are even some who attend church every week because it benefits them to have the contacts for sales and business. None of this could be considered in any sense worship.
Worship is a surrendered life. Worship is a recognition that God is alone worthy to rule and reign in the life. Worship is a state of being where one is completely submitted to the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit fills the person to the extent that one's very nature is changed , sometimes radically. Worship is a state of being where one's will becomes one with the will of God. A state of being where one hates the things God hates, and loves the things God loves. A state of being where one is conformed into the image of Jesus Christ, identical in character, identical in motives, identical in hope and faith and love. Then, and only then, everything we do,even our secular labour, is infused with the love of God, both for Him and others. Everything we do is then an expression of the overflowing love of God and can be used of Him as a vehicle for the sharing of the gospel and for providing for the needs of others.
The concordance in both the Greek and Hebrew reveals the word worship means to prostrate oneself, to crouch down even face down upon the earth before God. That is the outward physical expression of the submission and surrender that is required .... when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:23.
So why do we worship God and not something, or someone else? Because of who He is. The Creator of heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything that is in them is worthy. He who created all things, became a man and died on behalf of mankind is Lord of Lords and deserves the fidelity and love of all His creation. Greater love hath no man than he who lays down his life for a friend. There is a greater love however, and that is the love that motivated Jesus to lay down His life even for His enemies. Laying down our lives for our Creator is the very least we can do.
Romans 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
And yes Hobie. Who we worship, who we obey, who we are surrendered to, whose authority we recognise, informs heaven as to who in Revelation is finally saved, or lost. I did not say those things save us, but we are known by our fruits. And the final harvest is all about reaping ripe fruit.
There are secular people in the world who wouldn't dream of breaking God's commandments. While they might not keep them all, there are certainly some who would find utterly repugnant that they should cheat on their wife or husband, nor even consider looking upon any other to lust after them.
There are others who are meticulous in honesty, they would never lie , cheat on their taxes, nor steal from anyone.
There are others who are so content with their lives that covetousness may as well be a foreign language.
And there are still others who may do all of the above and also dote on their parents and love and care for them right up to the grave.
Yet none of this could be construed as worship. Obedience yes, but our righteousness is as filthy rags.
There are church-going people who sing hymns. Yet they then go home and beat their wives and watch pornography on television.
There are still others who 'religiously' attend church every week but live the rest of the week pursuing money, fame, and reputation at the expense of others. There are even some who attend church every week because it benefits them to have the contacts for sales and business. None of this could be considered in any sense worship.
Worship is a surrendered life. Worship is a recognition that God is alone worthy to rule and reign in the life. Worship is a state of being where one is completely submitted to the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit fills the person to the extent that one's very nature is changed , sometimes radically. Worship is a state of being where one's will becomes one with the will of God. A state of being where one hates the things God hates, and loves the things God loves. A state of being where one is conformed into the image of Jesus Christ, identical in character, identical in motives, identical in hope and faith and love. Then, and only then, everything we do,even our secular labour, is infused with the love of God, both for Him and others. Everything we do is then an expression of the overflowing love of God and can be used of Him as a vehicle for the sharing of the gospel and for providing for the needs of others.
The concordance in both the Greek and Hebrew reveals the word worship means to prostrate oneself, to crouch down even face down upon the earth before God. That is the outward physical expression of the submission and surrender that is required .... when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
John 4:23.
So why do we worship God and not something, or someone else? Because of who He is. The Creator of heaven, the earth, the sea, and everything that is in them is worthy. He who created all things, became a man and died on behalf of mankind is Lord of Lords and deserves the fidelity and love of all His creation. Greater love hath no man than he who lays down his life for a friend. There is a greater love however, and that is the love that motivated Jesus to lay down His life even for His enemies. Laying down our lives for our Creator is the very least we can do.
Romans 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
And yes Hobie. Who we worship, who we obey, who we are surrendered to, whose authority we recognise, informs heaven as to who in Revelation is finally saved, or lost. I did not say those things save us, but we are known by our fruits. And the final harvest is all about reaping ripe fruit.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Obviously we did not sin prior to conception. Most would not understand sin as a concept while sitting in the womb. But sinless means more than just sinning for the first time.
Why equate that with nature though? Paul says it is this body that wants to sin, not nature. So I am not sure how replacing a nature really explains things. We are to have the mind of Christ, and submit our will to that of the Holy Spirit.
Besides it is this body of death that cements us into death itself, not our mind. That we are born sinners should be understood within the first 5 chapters of Genesis.
"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"
In conjunction with Romans 5
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
So what is passed down from generation to generation? A physical body, death or death in that physical body?
At what point is one a sinner? At conception or when they come face to face with God?
To me, teaching children or adults they are sinless and innocent sends the wrong message to begin with, because then we have to convince them after years of thinking they are sinless and innocent, that they are now a sinner, by what they do, instead of who they are. All have sinned, and that is not predicated on a certain age.
It is possible that some never sin, because of some unfortunate physical condition of the brain that never allows full mental development. And hundreds of millions don't even make it to term. And many innocent children die in the millions each year. All are covered by the Cross, until the point they can face God and make that decision on their full God given abilities to do so.
I don't think Paul was saying that sin passed on from generation to generation, but death did through the physical body of death. Because this body is of death, all have sinned, even if they don't even recognize sin as sin. Many societies have tried to replace God with their own culture and traditions. I think the Holy Spirit is always at work though, but in some cases it may seem hardly an effort, being suppressed by culture. That is why the Gospel is to go out and bring light to the cultural darkness.
Saying the nature of man was placed on Christ at the Cross is misleading unless the point is that it is all sin that was actually placed on Christ. Some want to limit that sin to just those who are going to escape the LOF. What is the point of limiting sin to the end of time, when Revelation points out the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world? There was no sin at that point.
2 Corinthians 5:21
"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
Would any equate the Second Birth as making us sinless and innocent, until we mess up? Can we fall in and out of either birth?
Could the second birth be a process that we choose to start and is not complete until physical death? Not that we can be unborn, and loose our salvation. I don't see the reality of renewing this dead flesh ever, as it is the mind that changes, and not the physical body, until we leave this body behind. God is not in the process of changing this physical body. God is in the process of changing the soul to be conformed to the final image we obtain once we shed this image of death.
Paul puts it this way as it relates to the soul which is our mind and will.
Romans 7:14-25
"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
This is the struggle between the soul that is of the Second Birth and the body of flesh. This is what is called the "two natures". But I am not seeing how the mind is instantly changed and becomes a different nature as many define it. The soul is redeemed no longer held accountable for the sin of the physical body of death, yes. But the struggle is that the soul is being conformed to the will of the Holy Spirit, not that the struggle is removed and the soul is now instantly changed into something new. It was the soul born into this body of death, that never wanted the desires of the flesh, but that is all the soul knew until another law or nature was applied to the soul pointing the soul into a different direction of mind and will. That is what the Holy Spirit is for since conception. But culture has dictated that the Holy Spirit is not there at conception, and the working of the Holy Spirit is limited until the light shines that it was the Holy Spirit all the time at work.
That is why I don't see it as automatically getting a "new nature", but having the ability to allow the Holy Spirit to actually work in us. I think it sets a wrong precedent to say the Holy Spirit only enters at a point of a second birth. Now one can argue that the Holy Spirit was limited in the OT, but I think that is wrong as well. The Holy Spirit was given to that group of chosen on a particular day, in a physical manifestation, which is true. That does not happen physically at every Second Birth. And those were already partakers of the Second Birth when Jesus chose them, not at the moment they received the physical manifestation on the day of Pentecost.
In that passage from Romans 7, Paul mentions several laws which we will assume the term "law" many refer to as "natures". We have the law/nature of the soul/mind. There is the law/nature of God, the Holy Spirit at work, and the law/nature of sin/the body of death. So the soul does not necessarily receive a different nature than it already has from conception. The point is made does the soul follow the will of the Holy Spirit or the will of sin and death, represented by the physical body.
One could then argue that sin is corporate of all Adamkind or mankind through the line of Seth. Individually does not effect even in the billions the entire death that was passed on because of one man's disobedience. Not that it changes the suffering of Christ, but that Christ was made sin for every single human, not just a select few, because all came through Adam and Eve via Seth and his offspring. All are born sinners because they are given the body of death in the womb, as well as the Holy Spirit at work to provide the means for the soul to receive redemption.
We can worship and sing songs and dance around showing that this is something that we do, but our worship should be representative of our heart for God in all that we do. In other words, our worship is a reflection of who we are.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Yep, I do know. As I said above. You are preaching to the choir. But what we do is directly the result of who we are. Unconverted people can sing hymns ya know. They come to church every Sunday, sing hymns, give money to the church, smile, make contacts with other church goers, greet the pastor at the door, and go home to watch porn and beat their wives. They are doing the exact same thing as you in church, but it isn't worship.
Similar threads
