Worship is the Core Issue as we see in Revelation

[Hobie]

We look and worship is the central theme of Revelation. It is the key to understanding Revelation as no other book of the Bible contains so many worship scenes. Time and again John is shown heavenly and earthly beings praising God and worshiping Him..

Revelation 4:10
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Revelation 5:14
And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 7:11
And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 9:20
And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Revelation 11:1
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Revelation 11:16
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Revelation 19:4
And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Then we see in contrast those that worship the evil power and its earthly entity...

Revelation 13:4
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:12
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:15
And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Revelation 14:9
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 15:4
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 16:2
And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The verb "to worship-proskuneo" occurs 24 times in Revelation and represents almost half of the New Testament occurrences. The worship of God and the Lamb radiates from the epicenter of the throne room of God and we see it goes from the living creatures, twenty four elders, to all the nations, and mankind and connects up to the Creator

Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

We see that that worship is for the Creator who made heaven and earth, and the sea which one needs to compare with Exodus 20:11...
Exodus 20:11
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

[Hobie]

The reason that worship is so central in Revelation is because John was shown in vision that worship is the root cause of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. In Revelation 12, John describes how that the conflict over worship began in heaven when Michael and his angels fought and defeated the dragon (Satan) and his angels, both of whom were thrown down to the earth.
Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

After he was cast out from heaven, Satan made this earth his place for his spiritual darkness, using all his resources to suppress the worship and worshippers of the true God, promoting instead the false worship of himself.

The conflict comes to a climax in Revelation 13, where Satan, represented as the Dragon, empowers the Beast to enforce its false worship by placing its mark, on the foreheads and hands of their followers, which represents the nature of the false worship promoted by Satan.

Revelation 13:1-8
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So who would bring in this false worship since scripture does teach is that false teachings would arise even from among church leaders and that Christians were to compare the church to Gods Word and see if it had strayed. We see clearly that only God is to be worship and not man, and yet the leader of the apostate church which is the beast, is worshiped by the world. We find where Peter, who they claim as the first leader, puts the lie to the notion of the worship of any man for any reason, much less of himself. We see it in Acts..
Acts 10:25-26
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

In the Roman Empire, the Supreme Pontiff or 'Pontifex Maximus', was the highest officer in the pagan state religion and directed a College of Pontiffs. Julius Caesar and other Roman Emperors, whom the citizens of the Empire were commanded to worship as gods, held the title of Supreme Pontiff, and this was passed on to the Pope, which it holds to this day. So we see there is a conflict between the true worship of God and the false worship promoted by the papacy, and it brings false teachings to deceive and use to enforce this system of false worship.....

The Catholic Church teaches the false doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (that Mary was born of a virgin birth), so it takes what shows the divinity of Christ and shifts it to Mary, to allow her to be worshiped as a god. We see it teaches the false doctrine of Transubstantiation, (that the bread and wine actually turn in to the literal physical body and blood of Jesus when we take the Lord’s Supper) so they can continue the false worship of these objects.

It teaches the false doctrine of Original Sin, that we are born already accountable for the sin of Adam. This false doctrine was created to explain another false doctrine, which is infant baptism. Infant baptism is not taught or practiced in the Bible. It makes no sense since it is to repent and put faith in Jesus, which is clearly impossible for an infant. And we see the false teachings of Purgatory, Worship of idols, saints, and Mary, Last rites, Confession to priests, Lent, etc…. None of these are biblical, and of course it changes the true worship on the Sabbath as its mark of authority, and it just goes on and on to support what is clearly a false system of worship which is in conflict with Gods Word..

 

[Randy Kluth]

The reason that worship is so central in Revelation is because John was shown in vision that worship is the root cause of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. In Revelation 12, John describes how that the conflict over worship began in heaven when Michael and his angels fought and defeated the dragon (Satan) and his angels, both of whom were thrown down to the earth.
Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

After he was cast out from heaven, Satan made this earth his place for his spiritual darkness, using all his resources to suppress the worship and worshippers of the true God, promoting instead the false worship of himself.

The conflict comes to a climax in Revelation 13, where Satan, represented as the Dragon, empowers the Beast to enforce its false worship by placing its mark, on the foreheads and hands of their followers, which represents the nature of the false worship promoted by Satan.

Revelation 13:1-8
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So who would bring in this false worship since scripture does teach is that false teachings would arise even from among church leaders and that Christians were to compare the church to Gods Word and see if it had strayed. We see clearly that only God is to be worship and not man, and yet the leader of the apostate church which is the beast, is worshiped by the world. We find where Peter, who they claim as the first leader, puts the lie to the notion of the worship of any man for any reason, much less of himself. We see it in Acts..
Acts 10:25-26
25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

In the Roman Empire, the Supreme Pontiff or 'Pontifex Maximus', was the highest officer in the pagan state religion and directed a College of Pontiffs. Julius Caesar and other Roman Emperors, whom the citizens of the Empire were commanded to worship as gods, held the title of Supreme Pontiff, and this was passed on to the Pope, which it holds to this day. So we see there is a conflict between the true worship of God and the false worship promoted by the papacy, and it brings false teachings to deceive and use to enforce this system of false worship.....

The Catholic Church teaches the false doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (that Mary was born of a virgin birth), so it takes what shows the divinity of Christ and shifts it to Mary, to allow her to be worshiped as a god. We see it teaches the false doctrine of Transubstantiation, (that the bread and wine actually turn in to the literal physical body and blood of Jesus when we take the Lord’s Supper) so they can continue the false worship of these objects.

It teaches the false doctrine of Original Sin, that we are born already accountable for the sin of Adam. This false doctrine was created to explain another false doctrine, which is infant baptism. Infant baptism is not taught or practiced in the Bible. It makes no sense since it is to repent and put faith in Jesus, which is clearly impossible for an infant. And we see the false teachings of Purgatory, Worship of idols, saints, and Mary, Last rites, Confession to priests, Lent, etc…. None of these are biblical, and of course it changes the true worship on the Sabbath as its mark of authority, and it just goes on and on to support what is clearly a false system of worship which is in conflict with Gods Word..

I agree and disagree. Yes, worship is central in the issues separating Satan and God. You either worship autonomy from God or you embrace full submission and the love of God.

The Roman Empire, when it was pagan, obviously promoted idolatry. It is less clear that the Catholics do this in their adoration of Mary as Mother of God, sinless, and Queen of Heaven. I do think it is a form of idolatry, though I wouldn't classify it as paganism in its truest form.

Imbalances often happen in Christian practice, and this is an example, I think, of imbalance in Christian theology. The Bible simply does not state these things. We may admire Mary, but placing her next to God is dangerous.

That being said, I think Original Sin is biblical, and does not depend on the Catholic Church for support. I think virtually all doctrinally orthodox communions would or should embrace it--otherwise, how would anybody need Christian redemption?

If Man himself does not need to be rebuilt completely as a human being, then redemption is just mercy, and has nothing to do with Christ's resurrection. People can be saved in their original bodies.

 

[ewq1938]

None of these are biblical, and of course it changes the true worship on the Sabbath as its mark of authority, and it just goes on and on to support what is clearly a false system of worship which is in conflict with Gods Word..

Obeying a dead law and the old ways of the Sabbath is just another version of the same "mark of authority". All major denominations have some form of deception especially in regard to the antichrist and the mark of the beast. Catholics? Yes. SDAs? Yes. Protestants? Yes. etc etc.

I am more and more convinced that being in any of these denominations will lead someone wrongly in regard to the end times ie: last days of this age just before the return of Christ.

There are lots of false teachings coming from these major groups about the rapture, the great tribulation and the antichrist and the mark.

 

[ewq1938]

That being said, I think Original Sin is biblical, and does not depend on the Catholic Church for support. I think virtually all doctrinally orthodox communions would or should embrace it--otherwise, how would anybody need Christian redemption?

Personal sin. Original sin isn't found in the bible ie: sin being passed down from parents (or Adam) to children. One is responsible for their own sin, not for anyone else's sin.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Personal sin. Original sin isn't found in the bible ie: sin being passed down from parents (or Adam) to children. One is responsible for their own sin, not for anyone else's sin.

Yes, "Original Sin" can be said in a couple of different ways. The way you say it I would agree with you. We bear our own sin, and not the sin of others.

The "Original Sin" I believe in is different. It says that we incline towards Sin, it being that our souls are polluted, having been created as a product of forefathers mixing their behavior between conformity to God's word and disobedience towards God's word.

This is not bearing Adams' sin but being born into a condition with a predilection towards sin. Jesus came into a condition that he did not deserve when he was born on earth. We came into a condition at birth that we did not deserve. Nevertheless, we need to be "fixed."

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, "Original Sin" can be said in a couple of different ways. The way you say it I would agree with you. We bear our own sin, and not the sin of others.

The "Original Sin" I believe in is different. It says that we incline towards Sin, it being that our souls are polluted, having been created as a product of forefathers mixing their behavior between conformity to God's word and disobedience towards God's word.

This is not bearing Adams' sin but being born into a condition with a predilection towards sin. Jesus came into a condition that he did not deserve when he was born on earth. We came into a condition at birth that we did not deserve. Nevertheless, we need to be "fixed."

Again, this is the same concept of inheriting sin, just changed to inheriting "soul pollution". There are verses that say essentially that children are born sinless/flawless so that contradicts any idea of inheriting something which taints us.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.


Other translations:


(CEV) I did learn one thing: We were completely honest when God created us, but now we have twisted minds.


(ESV) See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.


(GW) I have found only this: God made people decent, but they looked for many ways to avoid being decent."


(MSG) Yet I did spot one ray of light in this murk: God made men and women true and upright; we're the ones who've made a mess of things.


upright


3477

03477 yashar {yaw-shawr'}


from 03474; TWOT - 930a; adj


AV - right 53, upright 42, righteous 9, straight 3, convenient 2,
Jasher 2, equity 1, just 1, meet 1, meetest 1, upright ones 1,
uprightly 1, uprightness 1, well 1; 119


1) straight, upright, correct, right
1a) straight, level
1b) right, pleasing, correct
1c) straightforward, just, upright, fitting, proper
1d) uprightness, righteous, upright
1e) that which is upright (subst)



God hath made man upright, meaning righteous and good, but man seeks out things that alter this beginning.


Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


Psalms 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.


Psalms 92:15 To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him.



Even God describes himself as 03477 yashar and creating man as 03477 yashar means we are not born in sin and not created imperfect and flawed.


Matthew 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.


Even here we see that a wicked man progressed in his wickedness. His ending state was worse than his beginning. Mankind is created upright and righteous but we all progress from that state in our unrighteousness. Not all end up as bad as the above example but we all do become more unrighteous than when we were first created.

 

[Hobie]

I agree and disagree. Yes, worship is central in the issues separating Satan and God. You either worship autonomy from God or you embrace full submission and the love of God.

The Roman Empire, when it was pagan, obviously promoted idolatry. It is less clear that the Catholics do this in their adoration of Mary as Mother of God, sinless, and Queen of Heaven. I do think it is a form of idolatry, though I wouldn't classify it as paganism in its truest form.

Imbalances often happen in Christian practice, and this is an example, I think, of imbalance in Christian theology. The Bible simply does not state these things. We may admire Mary, but placing her next to God is dangerous.

That being said, I think Original Sin is biblical, and does not depend on the Catholic Church for support. I think virtually all doctrinally orthodox communions would or should embrace it--otherwise, how would anybody need Christian redemption?

If Man himself does not need to be rebuilt completely as a human being, then redemption is just mercy, and has nothing to do with Christ's resurrection. People can be saved in their original bodies.

Well, now you have to understand how worship will be the conflict at the end, especially when it comes to the Sabbath. The evangelicals Christians hold fervently to the claim that Christ will appear in the Holy Land, and go to Jerusalem, and not just the city but specifically a Jerusalem controlled by the Jewish people and a deception of seven years of tribulation. In essence, the belief is that the Jewish people will experience a great spiritual rebirth and rebuild a third temple in Jerusalem prior the messiah showing up and then they can go see the messiah and worship this messiah.

Now, Christ gave us clear warning of what would come at the end, that would if possible, deceive even the saints.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But Satan as a 'angel of light' can show himself as such a false christ or messiah and the impersonation takes place, and even the most devouted Christian to say nothing of the evangelicals, would be hard pressed to see through this deception.

2 Corinthians 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Christians have long awaited the Second Coming of Christ, but now the deceiver himself shows up as the 'angel of light' and shows himself in the desert or in different parts of the earth, then goes to get worship and what place are the evangelicals and many others expecting. Yes, the city of Jerusalem where many will flock to worship this being, and it wont be a surprise for him to ask for worship on the day he chooses. So Satan comes and will manifest himself as the ultimate false christ, as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description but only able to wander about on earth and show himself in the city to be worshiped as he deceives, and prepares for a battle....

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, now you have to understand how worship will be the conflict at the end, especially when it cEomes to the Sabbath. The evangelicals Christians hold fervently to the claim that Christ will appear in the Holy Land, and go to Jerusalem, and not just the city but specifically a Jerusalem controlled by the Jewish people and a deception of seven years of tribulation. In essence, the belief is that the Jewish people will experience a great spiritual rebirth and rebuild a third temple in Jerusalem prior the messiah showing up and then they can go see the messiah and worship this messiah.

The "Evangelicals" represent a pretty large group of Christians, and just stating what many of them believe does not disprove their positions. On some of the points I disagree--a 7 year Tribulation and a 3rd Temple. I don't believe the Temple will ever be rebuilt, and I believe the Tribulation encompasses the entire age of Jewish and Christian suffering. The Reign of Antichrist will only last 3.5 years, followed by the Battle of Armageddon. Portions of the Evangelical Church have picked up on Darby's Dispensationalism, but certainly not all of it have done so.

Christians have long awaited the Second Coming of Christ, but now the deceiver himself shows up as the 'angel of light' and shows himself in the desert or in different parts of the earth, then goes to get worship and what place are the evangelicals and many others expecting. Yes, the city of Jerusalem where many will flock to worship this being, and it wont be a surprise for him to ask for worship on the day he chooses. So Satan comes and will manifest himself as the ultimate false christ, as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description but only able to wander about on earth and show himself in the city to be worshiped as he deceives, and prepares for a battle....

Non-Christians largely reject belief in a Devil. Worship of him is more an admiration of a spirit that rejects dogmatic Christianity, which is very popular in the world today and will be even more evident during the reign of Antichrist, IMO. But I would agree with you that the main issue here involves who or what we worship. Our God is either self-rule or God-rule. I choose the latter.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Again, this is the same concept of inheriting sin, just changed to inheriting "soul pollution". There are verses that say essentially that children are born si..nless/flawless so that contradicts any idea of inheriting something which taints us.

1st, reference to the "righteous" in the Bible never means "sinless"--it just refers to the man who lives under discipline and pursues the laws of God. 2nd, the whole idea of a "New Creation" suggests that man universally is flawed from birth. Since I agree with you that we are not made sinners due to the sins of others, I say that we are born in a "sinful condition," indicating that we by nature gravitate towards rebellion, and thus begin our lives in rebellion.

I don't have to argue this from the Bible. I know it from experience. I experience regular rebellion against God's word in my own life, though I'm not referring to rejection of God. By "rebellion" I refer to a regular tendency to do less than all that God's word would desire of me. I have yet to see one single person or saint be perfect at any moment of their lives. Instead, I see a tendency towards pride, judgmentalism, lust, greed, etc. But saints overcome these things by regularly turning to the Spirit within them and turning to obedience to God's word speaking to their conscience.

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't have to argue this from the Bible. I know it from experience. I experience regular rebellion against God's word in my own life, though I'm not referring to rejection of God. By "rebellion" I refer to a regular tendency to do less than all that God's word would desire of me. I have yet to see one single person or saint be perfect at any moment of their lives. Instead, I see a tendency towards pride, judgmentalism, lust, greed, etc. But saints overcome these things by regularly turning to the Spirit within them and turning to obedience to God's word speaking to their conscience.

Yes, any Christian who says they don't struggle daily with sin in pretty much everything they do, who doesn't struggle to put off the old man and put on the new, as Paul puts it in 2 Corinthians 5, is fooling himself. You're right, we inherit Adam's (and Eve's) sinful nature from birth, and like David says of himself in Psalm 51:5, we were "brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did (our mothers) conceive (us)."

I will say, however, that since Adam is the federal head of the human race ~ and therefore even in Eden representative of all of us ~ we are guilty in this respect. Since he was guilty way back in Genesis 3 and from that point forward, so we are guilty from birth. We can see this in what Paul says in Romans 5:12, that "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." Adam and Eve became dead in their sin that very day, just as God warned Adam in Genesis 2:17. This death is the natural human condition, from birth, and we are in need of new birth... to be born again of the Spirit, as Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3. But, thanks be to God... Well, I'll let Paul say it again:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:4-10).​

And Peter:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5).​

Glory to God indeed!

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, any Christian who says they don't struggle daily with sin in pretty much everything they do, who doesn't struggle to put off the old man and put on the new, as Paul puts it in 2 Corinthians 5, is fooling himself. You're right, we inherit Adam's (and Eve's) sinful nature from birth, and like David says of himself in Psalm 51:5, we were "brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did (our mothers) conceive (us)."

Thank you. Honesty is the best policy. And confession opens the door to forgiveness. Consider the story of the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector (Luke 18).

Luke 18.14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Matt 9.12 On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

I will say, however, that since Adam is the federal head of the human race ~ and therefore even in Eden representative of all of us ~ we are guilty in this respect. Since he was guilty way back in Genesis 3 and from that point forward, so we are guilty from birth. We can see this in what Paul says in Romans 5:12, that "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." Adam and Eve became dead in their sin that very day, just as God warned Adam in Genesis 2:17. This death is the natural human condition, from birth, and we are in need of new birth... to be born again of the Spirit, as Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3. But, thanks be to God... Well, I'll let Paul say it again:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:4-10).​

Yes, we are born into a condition in which we sin by nature and therefore incur death by nature. I would not say, however, that I am bearing Adam's guilt. His sin was his own. My sin comes from the nature I inherited from Adam. Splitting hairs?

Grace and peace to all.

Indeed.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes, we are born into a condition in which we sin by nature and therefore incur death by nature.

Well, we incur physical death, the first death, as a result of the fall and the judgment handed down to Adam ~ and all his progeny, which is everyone, of course.

I would not say, however, that I am bearing Adam's guilt. His sin was his own. My sin comes from the nature I inherited from Adam. Splitting hairs?

It's not a major point of contention. Yes, I agree that Adam's sin was Adam's sin, and we are not immediately guilty of disobeying God and partaking of the tree as he was. But in a certain sense, we are; that's why I brought up the concept of federalism, of Adam being the federal head of the human race and as such representative of us in Eden.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Hobie]

The "Evangelicals" represent a pretty large group of Christians, and just stating what many of them believe does not disprove their positions. On some of the points I disagree--a 7 year Tribulation and a 3rd Temple. I don't believe the Temple will ever be rebuilt, and I believe the Tribulation encompasses the entire age of Jewish and Christian suffering. The Reign of Antichrist will only last 3.5 years, followed by the Battle of Armageddon. Portions of the Evangelical Church have picked up on Darby's Dispensationalism, but certainly not all of it have done so.

Non-Christians largely reject belief in a Devil. Worship of him is more an admiration of a spirit that rejects dogmatic Christianity, which is very popular in the world today and will be even more evident during the reign of Antichrist, IMO. But I would agree with you that the main issue here involves who or what we worship. Our God is either self-rule or God-rule. I choose the latter.

And yet we have evil being celebrated not rejected...

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[Randy Kluth]

And yet we have evil being celebrated not rejected...

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As I was trying to say, the world is intoxicated with the current dominance of liberal thinking, which is the idea we have freedom *from God,* to do as we please, to indulge our carnal nature. It does not require belief in a "Devil" to feel this way.

 

[Hobie]

As I was trying to say, the world is intoxicated with the current dominance of liberal thinking, which is the idea we have freedom *from God,* to do as we please, to indulge our carnal nature. It does not require belief in a "Devil" to feel this way.

Well, it doesn't 'require' it, but ask those who don't believe in a divine entity, and they have no problem with one of evil.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well, it doesn't 'require' it, but ask those who don't believe in a divine entity, and they have no problem with one of evil.

I don't know anybody who prefers a God of evil. But I do know of a lot of people who follow a God of war and aggression.

 

[Hobie]

I don't know anybody who prefers a God of evil. But I do know of a lot of people who follow a God of war and aggression.

So do you think there is ever a 'just war' especially against the aggressors, and evil itself as we see..

Revelation 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

One is responsible for their own sin, not for anyone else's sin.

Exactly!

The reforms love to us "original sin" as an excuse to keep sinning as they claim we can't help but sin every day in though word and deed because... they claim we were all born sinners!

Apparently, they think God made each new baby a sinner.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

So do you think there is ever a 'just war' especially against the aggressors, and evil itself as we see..

The Lord Himself has been involved in whacking people in self defense of Israel.

When He returns to start His 1000 year reign the Lord is going to have to wack some evil folks to remove them from the world.