WOULD YOU LIKE TO JOIN A NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH?
- Thread starter marksman
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
2 Chr. 34:19
Well-Known Member
2 Chr. 34:19
Well-Known Member
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Bobby Jo said:
There's always one or two who show up at a Pot-Luck and bring a FORK.
There's always one or two who show up at a Pot-Luck and bring a FORK.
I'm referring to self centered people who simply take from others ...
Bobby Jo
As I have and am studying the life of the NTC ATM, my very distinct impression is that they treated everyone the same.
DEATH
Acts chapter 5 is a very interesting one. It tells the story of Ananias and Saphira. They had a block of land which they sold and gave some of the money to the Way. They gave the impression that they had given everything they sold the land for whereas, in fact, they had only given some of the money they had raised by selling the land.
When they were questioned about it they both said they had given all the money they sold the land for. Peter, who they told this to used the gift of discernment and told them that they were lying as they had in fact kept some of the money for themselves. He had no way of knowing this so the information came by the Spirit.
The end result was that both Ananias and Saphira both dropped dead.
What are we to believe about this story? Some might say that it was rather harsh to do such a thing. Some might say they got what they deserved. Others might have no opinion on the matter. So what is behind it all as it was clear that their deaths were an act of God and not of any human contact.
The backdrop to this story is that the Way was different. Whatever the world did, the Way did it differently. They didn't ignore and treat badly widows and orphans. They embraced them and looked after them. People were not rejected if they were not physically perfect like the temple did. The women in the Way were not treated as chattel and servants like they were in society. In fact, it was the Way that first emancipated women. They did not give way to their tempers and rant and rave if they did not get their own way. And probably one of the most outstanding attributes was that they loved their enemies. In a society that did not do these things, they stood out like a sore thumb.
They were totally genuine and that was what made it so attractive as a movement.
Now back to Ananias and Saphira. Lying was not on their agenda in the Way. They were honest with each other and treated everyone with respect, no matter who they were. These two had no need to lie as they were free to do what they wanted with the money. They could have said they were giving 50% of what they sold the land for and that would have been quite OK. There was no requirement to give all of it.
So where they came unstuck was that they were not lying to Peter or anyone else. They were lying to the Holy Spirit and that was just not acceptable. In so doing they thought that no one would find out. They did not allow for Peters's discernment. As far as he was concerned they had allowed Satan to fill their heart to lie. In the Way, you do not do that. You shut the door on what Satan wanted to do.
The bottom line was that God did not want their testimony damaged by the infiltration of lying. If he allowed one act of defiance where was it all going to end up? Would lying become normal and unchecked? How would that undermine what they were and did? In one sense God had no choice to do what he did as he wanted his church to remain pure and unadulterated. He had to show there was a price to pay for treating the body of Christ so carelessly.
So far we have seen that becoming part of an NTC demanded total commitment and total truth. What I call walking in the light. Think about the Christian environment that you find yourself in. If it was translated back to new testament days, do you think that it would survive the standards set them by God? If not why not?
Acts chapter 5 is a very interesting one. It tells the story of Ananias and Saphira. They had a block of land which they sold and gave some of the money to the Way. They gave the impression that they had given everything they sold the land for whereas, in fact, they had only given some of the money they had raised by selling the land.
When they were questioned about it they both said they had given all the money they sold the land for. Peter, who they told this to used the gift of discernment and told them that they were lying as they had in fact kept some of the money for themselves. He had no way of knowing this so the information came by the Spirit.
The end result was that both Ananias and Saphira both dropped dead.
What are we to believe about this story? Some might say that it was rather harsh to do such a thing. Some might say they got what they deserved. Others might have no opinion on the matter. So what is behind it all as it was clear that their deaths were an act of God and not of any human contact.
The backdrop to this story is that the Way was different. Whatever the world did, the Way did it differently. They didn't ignore and treat badly widows and orphans. They embraced them and looked after them. People were not rejected if they were not physically perfect like the temple did. The women in the Way were not treated as chattel and servants like they were in society. In fact, it was the Way that first emancipated women. They did not give way to their tempers and rant and rave if they did not get their own way. And probably one of the most outstanding attributes was that they loved their enemies. In a society that did not do these things, they stood out like a sore thumb.
They were totally genuine and that was what made it so attractive as a movement.
Now back to Ananias and Saphira. Lying was not on their agenda in the Way. They were honest with each other and treated everyone with respect, no matter who they were. These two had no need to lie as they were free to do what they wanted with the money. They could have said they were giving 50% of what they sold the land for and that would have been quite OK. There was no requirement to give all of it.
So where they came unstuck was that they were not lying to Peter or anyone else. They were lying to the Holy Spirit and that was just not acceptable. In so doing they thought that no one would find out. They did not allow for Peters's discernment. As far as he was concerned they had allowed Satan to fill their heart to lie. In the Way, you do not do that. You shut the door on what Satan wanted to do.
The bottom line was that God did not want their testimony damaged by the infiltration of lying. If he allowed one act of defiance where was it all going to end up? Would lying become normal and unchecked? How would that undermine what they were and did? In one sense God had no choice to do what he did as he wanted his church to remain pure and unadulterated. He had to show there was a price to pay for treating the body of Christ so carelessly.
So far we have seen that becoming part of an NTC demanded total commitment and total truth. What I call walking in the light. Think about the Christian environment that you find yourself in. If it was translated back to new testament days, do you think that it would survive the standards set them by God? If not why not?
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
The "ancients" aren't the ones being fed at the Pot Luck. But I can understand why you don't want to address people in the church who are self-serving, or people in the world who would scam you with "I'm Hungry" signs.
Perhaps you could use more sand?
Bobby Jo
2 Chr. 34:19
Well-Known Member
THE MINISTRY OF THE HOLY SPIRIT
When you take a good look at the New Testament church (NTC) you can see how central the Holy Spirit was and his influence.
The Samaritans were the first non-jews to be brought into the kingdom of God. In chapter eight of Acts we see that the believers who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. (v4). Scattering them did not achieve the required result that the priests wanted and that was to silence them.
Phillip took the opportunity to go to Samaria to preach Christ to them. The Samaritans heeded his message AND because of the miracles he performed. Demon possessed were delivered and paralyzed and lame were healed. Note not sore necks or sore backs. People that were visibly disabled so there was no confusion as to what was happening. And surprise, surprise there was great joy. I guess if you have never been able to walk you would be very happy.
In v 14-17 two important things were recorded. One, the Samaritans had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Note, in the name of the LORD JESUS, Not the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And two, the Holy Spirit as yet had not fallen on any of them so Peter and John who had been sent by the Jerusalem church laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
So what is this telling us? First of all, it was standard practice to baptize by immersion all new believers so that puts paid to those who say it is not necessary.
Second, if the baptism of the Holy Spirit was not necessary, the Jerusalem church would not have sent Peter and John to lay hands on them to receive the baptism of the Spirit. The fact that they did shows how important this is. Again this puts paid to those who say it is not necessary. It is not necessary if you want a life devoid of power, but if you don't, then it won't happen unless you have received the gift of the Holy Spirit. You can't have one without the other so that puts paid to the Reform doctrine and a few others.
And a footnote here. Dear old Simon the Sorcerer was amazed seeing the sign and miracles that happened. I have a feeling the world that most of the time ignores the church will sit up and take notice if it saw a few signs and wonders.
When you take a good look at the New Testament church (NTC) you can see how central the Holy Spirit was and his influence.
The Samaritans were the first non-jews to be brought into the kingdom of God. In chapter eight of Acts we see that the believers who were scattered went everywhere preaching the word. (v4). Scattering them did not achieve the required result that the priests wanted and that was to silence them.
Phillip took the opportunity to go to Samaria to preach Christ to them. The Samaritans heeded his message AND because of the miracles he performed. Demon possessed were delivered and paralyzed and lame were healed. Note not sore necks or sore backs. People that were visibly disabled so there was no confusion as to what was happening. And surprise, surprise there was great joy. I guess if you have never been able to walk you would be very happy.
In v 14-17 two important things were recorded. One, the Samaritans had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Note, in the name of the LORD JESUS, Not the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And two, the Holy Spirit as yet had not fallen on any of them so Peter and John who had been sent by the Jerusalem church laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit.
So what is this telling us? First of all, it was standard practice to baptize by immersion all new believers so that puts paid to those who say it is not necessary.
Second, if the baptism of the Holy Spirit was not necessary, the Jerusalem church would not have sent Peter and John to lay hands on them to receive the baptism of the Spirit. The fact that they did shows how important this is. Again this puts paid to those who say it is not necessary. It is not necessary if you want a life devoid of power, but if you don't, then it won't happen unless you have received the gift of the Holy Spirit. You can't have one without the other so that puts paid to the Reform doctrine and a few others.
And a footnote here. Dear old Simon the Sorcerer was amazed seeing the sign and miracles that happened. I have a feeling the world that most of the time ignores the church will sit up and take notice if it saw a few signs and wonders.
2 Chr. 34:19
Well-Known Member
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
These verses were given only to the Apostles.
The Holy Spirit does teach us through scripture.
That does not mean these verses give us the same promise given to the Apostles.
Stan B
Well-Known Member
I don't see where Jesus ever said this was only for the apostles. You have said nothing that changes my beliefs.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
Stan B,
Hello Stan,
Here is what I see plainly taught;
25 These things have I spoken unto you, [The Apostles}
being yet present with you.{The Apostles]
We were not there. Only The Apostles were.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things,[The Apostles]
and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
[ you the Apostles]
Jesus cannot bring to our remembrance what we did not hear Him teach when he was here on Earth.
Does the Spirit allow believers to welcome the truth of scripture? yes
Does the Spirit help us remember things, yes
However that is not what was being taught in Jn14, 15, 16.
Jn.15
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
This is addressed to the Apostles;
mk 3:14
14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
jn16;
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
Again, THE APOSTLES...
jn16;
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
This again is spoken directly to the Apostles, not everyone.
We can learn things based on what they wrote, but not one of us, is "guided into all truth".
Every false teacher pulls verse 13 out of the gospel of jn and adds 1jn 2:27 to explain why they are guided into all truth...NOT
Certainly when we are quickened and indwelt by the Spirit we are able to welcome the scriptures as God's truth 1 cor .chapter 2.
Any truth that comes our way is by the Spirit opening us to understand the word of God.
That being said, the promise given to the Apostles was unique.
When Jesus promised them they were going to be guided into ALL TRUTH, He was not saying they were going to be instructed on how to build and maintain a computer, or a jet, or solve complex math equations.
It was a promise that Peter alludes to in 2 pet.1:3
All things that pertain to life and godliness.
Their word was so authoratative that John could say he who hears us is of God. 1 jn.4 :6
He who is of God hears US....[the apostles]
He that is not of God hearth not us.
Hereby know we the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
If we were guided into all truth, we would not ever get it wrong.
Jesus promised the Spirit would bring to their remembrance what they actually heard Jesus preach, and they had been with Him from the beginning.
The Spirit would show them things to come..
Only the Apostles were being spoken to.
There is no verse suggesting that all believers are guided into a truth.
Hello Stan,
Let's look at what Jesus said;
Here is what I see plainly taught;
25 These things have I spoken unto you, [The Apostles}
being yet present with you.{The Apostles]
We were not there. Only The Apostles were.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things,[The Apostles]
and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
[ you the Apostles]
Jesus cannot bring to our remembrance what we did not hear Him teach when he was here on Earth.
Does the Spirit allow believers to welcome the truth of scripture? yes
Does the Spirit help us remember things, yes
However that is not what was being taught in Jn14, 15, 16.
Jn.15
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
This is addressed to the Apostles;
mk 3:14
14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
jn16;
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
Again, THE APOSTLES...
jn16;
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
This again is spoken directly to the Apostles, not everyone.
We can learn things based on what they wrote, but not one of us, is "guided into all truth".
Every false teacher pulls verse 13 out of the gospel of jn and adds 1jn 2:27 to explain why they are guided into all truth...NOT
Certainly when we are quickened and indwelt by the Spirit we are able to welcome the scriptures as God's truth 1 cor .chapter 2.
Any truth that comes our way is by the Spirit opening us to understand the word of God.
That being said, the promise given to the Apostles was unique.
When Jesus promised them they were going to be guided into ALL TRUTH, He was not saying they were going to be instructed on how to build and maintain a computer, or a jet, or solve complex math equations.
It was a promise that Peter alludes to in 2 pet.1:3
All things that pertain to life and godliness.
Their word was so authoratative that John could say he who hears us is of God. 1 jn.4 :6
He who is of God hears US....[the apostles]
He that is not of God hearth not us.
Hereby know we the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
If we were guided into all truth, we would not ever get it wrong.
Jesus promised the Spirit would bring to their remembrance what they actually heard Jesus preach, and they had been with Him from the beginning.
The Spirit would show them things to come..
Only the Apostles were being spoken to.
There is no verse suggesting that all believers are guided into a truth.
God causes all things to work together for good to those who love Him, who are called according to His Plan (Purpose).
Thus everything by plan, God's Plan, not by chance, works together by God's Doing (He Makes It So) for His Declared Purpose.
As written, always as written, and concerning even the dead,
The author says that though Abel "is dead, he still speaks."
Stan B
Well-Known Member
Hmmm . . . seems like Paul messed up, and passed that info on to me. Works for me.
You do what works for you.
Anthony D'Arienzo
Well-Known Member
I guess that is one cute way we can dismiss the Acts of the Holy Spirit.
Ye thats why we have so many messed up Christians, dont believe God.
Act_2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
But seems all men need is the bible.. and so these forums will continue with there many voices
Similar threads
