Wrong Teaching on "God's Sovereignty"=Worst Doctrine in Church today!!

[ScottA]

Scott, that assumes you applied "before the foundation of the world" correctly in the second clause, and that you were in fact chosen before the foundation of the world as implied in the third.

Rev

I am not following your reference to "clause." Nonetheless, all things can be broken down, or combined. This is the telling of His story, which is only described as occurring in the twinkling of an eye...but was instantaneous, in the timeless, eternal realm of God.

 

[Rev20]

I am not following your reference to "clause." Nonetheless, all things can be broken down, or combined. This is the telling of His story, which is only described as occurring in the twinkling of an eye...but was instantaneous, in the timeless, eternal realm of God.

Scott, there are three clauses in the sentence I quoted. The second was this:

"but rather that just as the Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world"

The lamb was slain "from" [από] the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8), not "before" [πρὸ]. Christ was, however, "foreordained" before the foundation of the world (1 Pet 1:20).
.
Your third clause read thus:

"we too did everything we are now experiencing before the foundation of the world."

That is true of the remnant of Israel whom God foreknew (Ps 94:14; Amos 3:1-2; Rom 8:29; Rom 11:1-2; 1 Pet 1:1-2), who also received the adoption (Ps 77:15; Rom 9:4, Gal 4:5, Rev 14:3-4, etc.). But I find no evidence that is true of anyone else. To the contrary (Ps 147:19-20; Is 61:5-6, 9; Rom 3:1-2).

Remember, the royal priesthood was promised only to the faithful children of Israel:

"And now if ye will indeed hear my voice, and keep my covenant, ye shall be to me a peculiar people above all nations; for the whole earth is mine. And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel." -- Exo 19:5-6 LXX

"But ye [diaspora] are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." -- 1Pet 2:9-10 KJV

The last verse (1 Pet 2:10) was a fulfillment of Hosea 1 & 2 where the Lord promised to regather the two houses back into one -- Judah, who was still his people, and Israel, who was not his people.

Rev

 

[GodsGrace]

According to the word of God, these things are true of the Lamb. If we are in Christ...it is true of us also.

Got some scripture on that?
I never heard of anything so strange as some ideas on this forum.
Scripture please?

Just because something works for GOD, does not mean it works for man.
God is outside of time, NOT MAN.
Please show how men were ALIVE before they were born.
And I don't mean that God knew us before we were born, that is a totally different concept. Please show where we were alive before birth.
thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scott, there are three clauses in the sentence I quoted. The second was this:

"but rather that just as the Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world"

The lamb was slain "from" [από] the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8), not "before" [πρὸ]. Christ was, however, "foreordained" before the foundation of the world (1 Pet 1:20).
.
Your third clause read thus:

"we too did everything we are now experiencing before the foundation of the world."

That is true of the remnant of Israel whom God foreknew (Ps 94:14; Amos 3:1-2; Rom 8:29; Rom 11:1-2; 1 Pet 1:1-2), who also received the adoption (Ps 77:15; Rom 9:4, Gal 4:5, Rev 14:3-4, etc.). But I find no evidence that is true of anyone else. To the contrary (Ps 147:19-20; Is 61:5-6, 9; Rom 3:1-2).

Remember, the royal priesthood was promised only to the faithful children of Israel:

"And now if ye will indeed hear my voice, and keep my covenant, ye shall be to me a peculiar people above all nations; for the whole earth is mine. And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel." -- Exo 19:5-6 LXX

"But ye [diaspora] are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." -- 1Pet 2:9-10 KJV

The last verse (1 Pet 2:10) was a fulfillment of Hosea 1 & 2 where the Lord promised to regather the two houses back into one -- Judah, who was still his people, and Israel, who was not his people.

Rev

God chose the Hebrews to reveal Himself.
Scott is speaking of individual persons.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scott, that assumes you applied "before the foundation of the world" correctly in the second clause, and that you were in fact chosen before the foundation of the world as implied in the third.

Rev

Somebody was chosen?
Individually?
By Whom?

 

[ScottA]

Scott, there are three clauses in the sentence I quoted. The second was this:

"but rather that just as the Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world"

The lamb was slain "from" [από] the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8), not "before" [πρὸ]. Christ was, however, "foreordained" before the foundation of the world (1 Pet 1:20).
.
Your third clause read thus:

"we too did everything we are now experiencing before the foundation of the world."

That is true of the remnant of Israel whom God foreknew (Ps 94:14; Amos 3:1-2; Rom 8:29; Rom 11:1-2; 1 Pet 1:1-2), who also received the adoption (Ps 77:15; Rom 9:4, Gal 4:5, Rev 14:3-4, etc.). But I find no evidence that is true of anyone else. To the contrary (Ps 147:19-20; Is 61:5-6, 9; Rom 3:1-2).

Remember, the royal priesthood was promised only to the faithful children of Israel:

"And now if ye will indeed hear my voice, and keep my covenant, ye shall be to me a peculiar people above all nations; for the whole earth is mine. And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel." -- Exo 19:5-6 LXX

"But ye [diaspora] are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." -- 1Pet 2:9-10 KJV

The last verse (1 Pet 2:10) was a fulfillment of Hosea 1 & 2 where the Lord promised to regather the two houses back into one -- Judah, who was still his people, and Israel, who was not his people.

Rev

You are mixing time with that which is without time with God.

Time was created for a finite purpose, apart from God. Therefore, when we speak of the Son, we have no choice but to take exception to time...and if we are in Christ, those things that are true of Christ, are also true of us.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are mixing time with that which is without time with God.

Time was created for a finite purpose, apart from God. Therefore, when we speak of the Son, we have no choice but to take exception to time...and if we are in Christ, those things that are true of Christ, are also true of us.

How do you think that what is true of Christ is true of us?

 

[Rev20]

God chose the Hebrews to reveal Himself. Scott is speaking of individual persons.

I am not sure I follow you since you presented no supporting scripture. In any case, the faithful remnant of Israel was chosen from the foundation of the world. The rest (like me) are required to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered [like me]: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call [the remnant of Israel]." -- Joel 2:32 KJV

Peter, who was sent, mentioned it:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." -- Acts 2:21 KJV

And Paul, who was also sent, explained it this way:

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" -- Rom 10:12-15 KJV

Paul and Peter were sent to be a preachers, and their inspired Word has brought many to Christ, like me.

Rev

 

[Rev20]

Time was created for a finite purpose, apart from God. Therefore, when we speak of the Son, we have no choice but to take exception to time...and if we are in Christ, those things that are true of Christ, are also true of us.

I have no idea what that means. Do you have supporting scripture for that? And, if so, how does it support your implication that you were chosen from the foundation of the world?

Rev

 

[Rev20]

Somebody was chosen?
Individually?
By Whom?

Please rephrase your question(s). Thanks.

Rev

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not sure I follow you since you presented no supporting scripture. In any case, the faithful remnant of Israel was chosen from the foundation of the world. The rest (like me) are required to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered [like me]: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call [the remnant of Israel]." -- Joel 2:32 KJV

Peter, who was sent, mentioned it:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." -- Acts 2:21 KJV

And Paul, who was also sent, explained it this way:

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" -- Rom 10:12-15 KJV

Paul and Peter were sent to be a preachers, and their inspired Word has brought many to Christ, like me.

Rev

I agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

Please rephrase your question(s). Thanks.

Rev

No need to.
We agree.
I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood you.

 

[ScottA]

How do you think that what is true of Christ is true of us?

As I said, "If we are in Him." How is it that you could see it differently?

 

[ScottA]

I have no idea what that means. Do you have supporting scripture for that? And, if so, how does it support your implication that you were chosen from the foundation of the world?

Rev

You ask for what is obvious, what I have quoted already repeatedly: That be "in Christ", all that is written of Him is also true of us, because we "Two have become one."

 

[Rev20]

You ask for what is obvious, what I have quoted already repeatedly: That be "in Christ", all that is written of Him is also true of us, because we "Two have become one."

You are speaking in philosophical riddles, Scott. Can you express your thoughts using the scripture?

Rev

 

[ScottA]

You are speaking in philosophical riddles, Scott. Can you express your thoughts using the scripture?

Rev

First, I must correct you: It is all the languages of the world that are riddled by God (including the scriptures), but I am speaking plainly and in truth. Therefore, why should I speak and quote the scriptures, if you have not already understood their meaning?

There is One begotten of God, whom is Christ the Son. If we are in Him, we are no more of the world, and were before the foundation of the world also. We are One, just as He and the Father are One. Do you not understand that this is what we become when we are born again of the spirit of God?

 

[Rev20]

First, I must correct you: It is all the languages of the world that are riddled by God (including the scriptures), but I am speaking plainly and in truth. Therefore, why should I speak and quote the scriptures, if you have not already understood their meaning?

If you were speaking plainly, I would not have asked.

There is One begotten of God, whom is Christ the Son. If we are in Him, we are no more of the world, and were before the foundation of the world also. We are One, just as He and the Father are One. Do you not understand that this is what we become when we are born again of the spirit of God?

I think I understand. Let me rephrase my question. My studies have led me to believe that only the elect, the remnant of Israel, were predestinated and therefore chosen before the foundation of the world. I will explain. First some context . . .

Paul was addressing those formerly under the law -- those who were released from the law by the death of Christ:

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." -- Rom 7:1-4 KJV

That is the same audience he is addressing in the next chapter (and the next):

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Rom 8:28-30 KJV

Paul provides additional details on predestination in this passage, tying it to adoption:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -- Eph 1:4-5 KJV

In this passage, Paul explains that the adoption was for the Israelites:

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;" -- Rom 9:3-4 KJV

It is also written that only the children of Israel were foreknown:

"Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." -- Amos 3:1-2 KJV

Therefore, my question is, what is your basis for believing you were chosen, or, in Christ before the foundation of the world?

Rev

 

[ScottA]

If you were speaking plainly, I would not have asked.

That is not the only possibility. Yet it is not possible for me to respond to that statement and remain kind.

I think I understand. Let me rephrase my question. My studies have led me to believe that only the elect, the remnant of Israel, were predestinated and therefore chosen before the foundation of the world. I will explain. First some context . . .

Paul was addressing those formerly under the law -- those who were released from the law by the death of Christ:

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God." -- Rom 7:1-4 KJV

That is the same audience he is addressing in the next chapter (and the next):

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Rom 8:28-30 KJV

Paul provides additional details on predestination in this passage, tying it to adoption:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," -- Eph 1:4-5 KJV

In this passage, Paul explains that the adoption was for the Israelites:

"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;" -- Rom 9:3-4 KJV

It is also written that only the children of Israel were foreknown:

"Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." -- Amos 3:1-2 KJV

Therefore, my question is, what is your basis for believing you were chosen, or, in Christ before the foundation of the world?

Paul too is only being kind. He spoke in terms they could understand. He spoke in worldly terms, because he spoke to the flesh. But I am not speaking in worldly terms, for I am not speaking to the flesh, but to the spirit.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says:

The "adoption" is of the dead. But one who is born [again] of the spirit of God, is not dead, but alive. Nor is one who is of God in need of adoption, for they are living heirs.

But, whether dead or alive, all who are in Christ were before the foundation of the world. But the dead, though they are first, are last. Just as Jesus explained, speaking of Israel: "Before Abraham was, I am." And the living, though they are last, are first...for they are of God, whom also is I am (meaning before the foundation of the world).

 

[Rev20]

That is not the only possibility. Yet it is not possible for me to respond to that statement and remain kind.

Sometimes it is difficult to be kind.

Paul too is only being kind. He spoke in terms they could understand. He spoke in worldly terms, because he spoke to the flesh. But I am not speaking in worldly terms, for I am not speaking to the flesh, but to the spirit.

He who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit says:

What exactly did the spirit say to those who have ears?

The "adoption" is of the dead. But one who is born [again] of the spirit of God, is not dead, but alive. Nor is one who is of God in need of adoption, for they are living heirs.

The adoption is mentioned exactly 5 times in the New Testament (and not at all in the LXX): Rom 8:15, 8:23, 9:4; Gal 4:5; Eph 1:5.

Will you please point to the verse that supports your claim?

But, whether dead or alive, all who are in Christ were before the foundation of the world. But the dead, though they are first, are last. Just as Jesus explained, speaking of Israel: "Before Abraham was, I am." And the living, though they are last, are first...for they are of God, whom also is I am (meaning before the foundation of the world).

That appears to be a philosophical argument, to be kind. Perhaps I do not follow you because I have been led to follow the Word. For example, the Word says this to me about the relationship between the Word and the Spirit:

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." -- John 3:5 KJV

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." -- John 6:63 KJV

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" -- Eph 6:17 KJV

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." -- 1Pet 1:22-23 KJV

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;" -- 1John 1:1 KJV

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." -- Rev 19:11-13 KJV

Those authors seem to think the Word is important, and I am in no position to disagree. For that reason, when someone makes statements that I have neither seen nor heard with the implication they are from the scriptures, I am obliged to ask them where and how they derived them. I might learn something.

That said, I am still unconvinced you (or I) were "in Christ were before the foundation of the world". I am not saying you are wrong, I am simply saying that in my many years of bible study, I have not come across a single verse or passage that supports your statement. I was hoping you could provide the verse(s).

Rev

 

[ScottA]

Sometimes it is difficult to be kind.



What exactly did the spirit say to those who have ears?



The adoption is mentioned exactly 5 times in the New Testament (and not at all in the LXX): Rom 8:15, 8:23, 9:4; Gal 4:5; Eph 1:5.

Will you please point to the verse that supports your claim?



That appears to be a philosophical argument, to be kind. Perhaps I do not follow you because I have been led to follow the Word. For example, the Word says this to me about the relationship between the Word and the Spirit:

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." -- John 3:5 KJV

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." -- John 6:63 KJV

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" -- Eph 6:17 KJV

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." -- 1Pet 1:22-23 KJV

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;" -- 1John 1:1 KJV

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." -- Rev 19:11-13 KJV

Those authors seem to think the Word is important, and I am in no position to disagree. For that reason, when someone makes statements that I have neither seen nor heard with the implication they are from the scriptures, I am obliged to ask them where and how they derived them. I might learn something.

That said, I am still unconvinced you (or I) were "in Christ were before the foundation of the world". I am not saying you are wrong, I am simply saying that in my many years of bible study, I have not come across a single verse or passage that supports your statement. I was hoping you could provide the verse(s).

Rev

It is obvious that you are not listening or hearing what the spirit says. Go back and read again the last post. Do you see the little colon ( : )? After that is what the spirit says...showing that your opinion, your interpretation, your understanding is a miss even before you read it. God back and read it again, and pray that the Lord reveal the truth to you.

And because it is likely that you will turn it all back on me, I refer you again to the colon...you completely missed. If you are not paying attention, what you have to say is irrelevant. Change...or this discussion and your questions are pointless.