Wrong Teaching on "God's Sovereignty"=Worst Doctrine in Church today!!

[Rev20]

It is obvious that you are not listening or hearing what the spirit says. Go back and read again the last post. Do you see the little colon ( : )? After that is what the spirit says...showing that your opinion, your interpretation, your understanding is a miss even before you read it. God back and read it again, and pray that the Lord reveal the truth to you.

And because it is likely that you will turn it all back on me, I refer you again to the colon...you completely missed. If you are not paying attention, what you have to say is irrelevant. Change...or this discussion and your questions are pointless.

Scott, are you implying your words are spirit? If you believe that, then our discussion is most certainly pointless.

Rev

 

[ScottA]

Scott, are you implying your words are spirit? If you believe that, then our discussion is most certainly pointless.

Rev

If you do not know that these are the times spoken of by Joel the prophet as confirmed by Jesus and also by Peter, of God pouring out His spirit upon all flesh...then, yes, anything further would be pointless.

Do you then, deny the Holy Spirit, whom Christ has sent unto all truth?

 

[Rev20]

If you do not know that these are the times spoken of by Joel the prophet as confirmed by Jesus and also by Peter, of God pouring out His spirit upon all flesh...then, yes, anything further would be pointless.

Do you then, deny the Holy Spirit, whom Christ has sent unto all truth?

That is a strange question, Scott? You seem to be implying your words are spirit? Only a handful of the children of Israel received the Oracles of God, Scott:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." -- Rom 3:1-2 KJV

And that promise you are referencing in your last sentence was promised by Christ ONLY to the disciples:

"These things have I spoken unto you [disciples], being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you [disciples] all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." -- John 14:25-26 KJV

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you [disciples] into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you [disciples] things to come." -- John 16:13 KJV

The Holy Spirit guided those disciples into all truth and showed them things to come. They, in turn, wrote down those truths, as well as things to come, for theirs and our posterity, and presented them to us as the New Testament. It is their words in the New Testament that are spirit: not yours, and not mine.

The apostles were also given the exclusive power to interpret prophecy, as Peter explained:

"Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." -- 1Pet 1:9-12 KJV

Rev

 

[ScottA]

That is a strange question, Scott? You seem to be implying your words are spirit? Only a handful of the children of Israel received the Oracles of God, Scott:

"What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." -- Rom 3:1-2 KJV

And that promise you are referencing in your last sentence was promised by Christ ONLY to the disciples:

"These things have I spoken unto you [disciples], being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you [disciples] all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." -- John 14:25-26 KJV

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you [disciples] into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you [disciples] things to come." -- John 16:13 KJV

The Holy Spirit guided those disciples into all truth and showed them things to come. They, in turn, wrote down those truths, as well as things to come, for theirs and our posterity, and presented them to us as the New Testament. It is their words in the New Testament that are spirit: not yours, and not mine.

The apostles were also given the exclusive power to interpret prophecy, as Peter explained:

"Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into." -- 1Pet 1:9-12 KJV

Rev

What part of "all flesh" do you not understand?

Or these:

John 7:39
But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:47
“Can anyone forbid water, that these [the gentiles] should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

 

[Rev20]

What part of "all flesh" do you not understand?

Obviously, the part that you do not.


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+7:39&version=NKJV

Or these:

John 7:39
But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10:47
“Can anyone forbid water, that these [the gentiles] should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

Who was the audience, Scott? What are the contexts? Where does it say you would be given power to speak words of God that cannot be found anywhere in the holy scripture?

I am pretty sure that God never intended for you, or anyone else, to add words to His.


Many serious biblical scholars seem to agree that the awesome powers of the Holy Spirit that Christ gave first to the disciples, and later to Paul, were to fulfill this promise in Micah:

"And according to the days of thy departure out of Egypt shall ye see marvellous things." -- Mic 7:15 LXX 1851

Those miracles began with Christ:

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" -- Acts 2:22 KJV

Those powers were reserved for that generation, and for 40 years. Even the earliest Christians writing after the fall of Jerusalem made no claim to special powers, but rather pointed us to the Word. This is from one of the earliest, Clement of Rome:

"Ye are contentious, brethren, and are zealous concerning things that pertain not unto salvation. Look diligently into the scriptures, which are the true sayings of the Holy Spirit. Ye know how that nothing unjust or corrupt hath been written in them; for ye will not in them find the just expelled by holy men." -- 1Clem 45:1-3

And Barnabas:

"Thou shalt love, as the apple of thine eye, every one that speaketh unto thee the word of the Lord." -- Barn 19:9


The Word of God is the holy spirit, Scott. All other words are of the spirit of man.

Rev

 

[ScottA]

Obviously, the part that you do not.



Who was the audience, Scott? What are the contexts? Where does it say you would be given power to speak words of God that cannot be found anywhere in the holy scripture?

I am pretty sure that God never intended for you, or anyone else, to add words to His.


Many serious biblical scholars seem to agree that the awesome powers of the Holy Spirit that Christ gave first to the disciples, and later to Paul, were to fulfill this promise in Micah:

"And according to the days of thy departure out of Egypt shall ye see marvellous things." -- Mic 7:15 LXX 1851

Those miracles began with Christ:

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" -- Acts 2:22 KJV

Those powers were reserved for that generation, and for 40 years. Even the earliest Christians writing after the fall of Jerusalem made no claim to special powers, but rather pointed us to the Word. This is from one of the earliest, Clement of Rome:

"Ye are contentious, brethren, and are zealous concerning things that pertain not unto salvation. Look diligently into the scriptures, which are the true sayings of the Holy Spirit. Ye know how that nothing unjust or corrupt hath been written in them; for ye will not in them find the just expelled by holy men." -- 1Clem 45:1-3

And Barnabas:

"Thou shalt love, as the apple of thine eye, every one that speaketh unto thee the word of the Lord." -- Barn 19:9


The Word of God is the holy spirit, Scott. All other words are of the spirit of man.

Rev

Another lengthy exhortation...but still no acknowledgement or understanding of God pouring out His spirit upon "all flesh", not even with Peter specifically pointing to "the gentiles." To say nothing of Paul's words concerning "whosoever" being a "new creation" "first the natural, and then the spirit."

I have added nothing...but you have taken away.

But since you mention it - the early church did indeed derail...which would explain your lack of understanding. It's a good thing we are talking about it.

 

[Rev20]

Another lengthy exhortation...but still no acknowledgement or understanding of God pouring out His spirit upon "all flesh", not even with Peter specifically pointing to "the gentiles." To say nothing of Paul's words concerning "whosoever" being a "new creation" "first the natural, and then the spirit."

The words "All Flesh" did not mean everyone who is saved for all time would receive those initial and awesome powers of the holy spirit, Scott, any more than "all men would believe Christ" if the Jews let him alone (John 11:48); or any more than the words "every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5) included Australia or China; or any more than the words "all the world" (Luke 2:1; Matt 24:14) included India.

The Word of God was ultimately the spirit given to ALL FLESH, Scott. The Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God:

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" -- Eph 6:17 KJV

You seem to be saying we should take with us the "words of Scott". I think I will pass on that suggestion, Scott.

I have added nothing...but you have taken away.

You have yet to reveal the scripture that supports your claim that you were in Christ before the foundation of the world. If there is no such scripture, then you added your own words to it.

But since you mention it - the early church did indeed derail...which would explain your lack of understanding. It's a good thing we are talking about it.

How did the early church "derail", Scott? I am most curious how you answer that question.

Rev

 

[ScottA]

The words "All Flesh" did not mean everyone who is saved for all time would receive those initial and awesome powers of the holy spirit, Scott, any more than "all men would believe Christ" if the Jews let him alone (John 11:48); or any more than the words "every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5) included Australia or China; or any more than the words "all the world" (Luke 2:1; Matt 24:14) included India.

The Word of God was ultimately the spirit given to ALL FLESH, Scott. The Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God:

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:" -- Eph 6:17 KJV

You seem to be saying we should take with us the "words of Scott". I think I will pass on that suggestion, Scott.

You have yet to reveal the scripture that supports your claim that you were in Christ before the foundation of the world. If there is no such scripture, then you added your own words to it.

I see you do not know the Holy Spirit. If you did, you would know the truth of "it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me." So, no, I deserve no credit.

How did the early church "derail", Scott? I am most curious how you answer that question.

When Jesus ask His disciples who men said He was, Peter answered that He was the Christ. Christ then indicated that by the same way that Peter had received the correct answer, is how He would build His church. It is by this same means that I have been speaking to you. But then most took it to mean that Jesus meant that Peter, being called the rock, was the means by which Jesus would build His church, rather than by the spirit of God, the Rock of our salvation. Consequently, the church followed a man of flesh instead of God, whom is spirit (the same mistake that Israel made in choosing Saul).

 

[Rev20]

I see you do not know the Holy Spirit. If you did, you would know the truth of "it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me." So, no, I deserve no credit.

I have known Christ and the Holy Spirit for over 50 years, and I am pretty sure you do not.

When Jesus ask His disciples who men said He was, Peter answered that He was the Christ. Christ then indicated that by the same way that Peter had received the correct answer, is how He would build His church. It is by this same means that I have been speaking to you. But then most took it to mean that Jesus meant that Peter, being called the rock, was the means that Jesus would build His church, rather than by the spirit of God, the Rock of our salvation. Consequently, the church followed a man of flesh instead of God, whom is spirit.

The Word of God wasn't changed, Scott. It was men adding their "spin" to the Word that corrupted the Roman church, much like men do now. But that was not the case early-on.

Who was the first "church father" to promote Peter as the Bishop of Rome?

Rev

 

[ScottA]

I have known Christ and the Holy Spirit for over 50 years, and I am pretty sure you do not.

A tree is known by its fruit: We know, as we are known.

The Word of God wasn't changed, Scott. It was men adding their "spin" to the Word that corrupted the Roman church, much like men do now. But that was not the case early-on.

Who was the first "church father" to promote Peter as the Bishop of Rome?

I didn't say the word of God was changed, but rather that at the juncture where Jesus placed before the disciples life and death, the church chose death. Nonetheless, there is a remanent, and His word shall not return void.

 

[Rev20]

A tree is known by its fruit: We know, as we are known.

I believe there is also a warning or two against self-righteousness, Scott.

I didn't say the word of God was changed, but rather that at the juncture where Jesus placed before the disciples life and death, the church chose death. Nonetheless, there is a remanent, and His word shall not return void.

What do you mean by the "church chose death", Scott? Please provide historical references.

Rev

 

[ScottA]

I believe there is also a warning or two against self-righteousness, Scott.

And to those who have died to self, what do the scriptures say regarding them?

What do you mean by the "church chose death", Scott? Please provide historical references.

I gave you the scripture (where Christ asked "Who do men say that I am?" The rest is history, and written in the book of acts and the epistles. Do you dispute that the church took up the teachings of men, following Peter rather than pressing on in the spirit?

 

[Rev20]

And to those who have died to self, what do the scriptures say regarding them?

"Died to self?" I don't know since you provided no reference nor recognizable phrase. Will you please rephrase? Supporting scripture would be a big help.

I gave you the scripture (where Christ asked "Who do men say that I am?" The rest is history, and written in the book of acts and the epistles. Do you dispute that the church took up the teachings of men, following Peter rather than pressing on in the spirit?

I am familiar with the scripture, and Church History, Scott; but you are making general statements. Please be more specific, such as, when did men began to follow the teachings of men? When did men began to follow Peter? What did men believe prior in the latter part of the first century? The first part of the 2nd? What/when is the first evidence of a Christian Church after the Neronic Persecution, and what did they believe?

Please try to be more specific, Scott.

Rev

 

[ScottA]

"Died to self?" I don't know since you provided no reference nor recognizable phrase. Will you please rephrase? Supporting scripture would be a big help.

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Colossians 3:3
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me

I am familiar with the scripture, and Church History, Scott; but you are making general statements. Please be more specific, such as, when did men began to follow the teachings of men? When did men began to follow Peter? What did men believe prior in the latter part of the first century? The first part of the 2nd? What/when is the first evidence of a Christian Church after the Neronic Persecution, and what did they believe?

Please try to be more specific, Scott.

I am sure the details of that time of history would be fascinating to recount, if not painful. But, as I have already pointed out, the outcome is obvious and evidenced in the church throughout history and even today: believers give credit to Christ and to God, but follow leaders who take away the key of knowledge and hinder those who would enter in. Christ broke down those walls, but the church did not hear from Him that they should have seen "greater things than these." Nor did they hear that His "words were spirit", even when reminded that they "must be discerned spiritually." The teachings of the church are for the most part "the dead burying the dead", ministries of the needs of the flesh, seeking last the kingdom of God rather than first. Well meaning, but sorely misguided hypocrites.

But, yes, I will stick to generalizations. Or would you prefer wrath?

 

[mjrhealth]

It is also written that only the children of Israel were foreknown:

Yet God knew us all before the beginning, before Adam was even created, God had set up His plan for mans salvation, for He knows our beginning and our end, Since God is outside of time, time was set up for us, and it will end in its time.

Really isnt that difficult

I find it odd that those who claim to know the Holy Spirit demand scripture.....

 

[Rev20]

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Colossians 3:3
For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me

I am not sure what your point is, Scott. Paul and Peter were explaining to the children of Israel that, thanks to Christ, Israel was no longer under the law. In fact, that was virtually the exclusive theme of their epistles. First Peter was addressed exclusively to the scattered tribes in Asia Minor; and the first eleven chapters of Romans was addressed primarily to the remnant of Israel.

I am sure the details of that time of history would be fascinating to recount, if not painful.

That history is written down for all to see, Scott, and can be freely downloaded. This site has everything organized for you:

Research Library - Bible Research Tools

Click "Bible Study" on the top menu, then "Church History Publications" for a menu to three pages that contain downloadable lists of Ante-Nicene, Nicene and Post-Nicene, and Church History publications.

But, as I have already pointed out, the outcome is obvious and evidenced in the church throughout history and even today: believers give credit to Christ and to God, but follow leaders who take away the key of knowledge and hinder those who would enter in. Christ broke down those walls, but the church did not hear from Him that they should have seen "greater things than these." Nor did they hear that His words were spirit, even when reminded that they must be discerned spiritually. The teachings of the church are for the most part "the dead burying the dead", ministries of the needs of the flesh, seeking last the kingdom of God rather than first. Well meaning, but sorely misguided hypocrites.

Things were a little more complicated than that, Scott. Those were the times when a person could be executed for simply possessing a biblical manuscript. The early church was also heavily influenced by Gnostics, Judaizers, and others who had rejected the plain teachings of Christ during the Apostolic days, but remained and thrived after Christ gathered his Elect around A.D. 70. Early Church History has many publications written to expose and combat against those heresies. It is believed that many of those "Christians" holding up in Pella during the Jewish/Roman War were of the heretical sects. Christ told his elect to flee to the mountains, not to Pella.

But, yes, I will stick to generalizations. Or would you prefer wrath?

Don't be silly, Scott.

Rev

 

[Helen]

Really isnt that difficult

I find it odd that those who claim to know the Holy Spirit demand scripture.....

That is so true!
I am so glad to hear someone else say it. ( not that I ever said it aloud...but have often thought it)

In so many discussions peoples default position seems to always be...”Give me a scripture for that”
While all the time they are professing to being ‘well versed’ and mature! LOL

 

[Rev20]

That is so true!
I am so glad to hear someone else say it. ( not that I ever said it aloud...but have often thought it)

In so many discussions peoples default position seems to always be...”Give me a scripture for that”
While all the time they are professing to being ‘well versed’ and mature! LOL

Grace, you must be referring to me, since that is my "default" position.

I find it odd that anyone would think they know the Holy Spirit and not be able to back up what they say with scripture, since the scripture is Holy Spirit given to us by those entrusted with the oracles of God. Paul, Peter, all of them gave us examples by proving their words with scripture, even Jesus. Paul, in his own words, said he preached nothing but Moses and the Prophets. And remember this Psalm?

"Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." -- Ps 119:11 KJV

The Bible is loaded with scripture that point us to the Word. Yet there are about 30,000 denominations, each claiming superior doctrine to the other. Did you every wonder why? Perhaps it is because they trust their doctrine (which all will claim to come from the "Holy Spirit") over the written Word of God.

Paul said faith comes by hearing the Word of God:

"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." -- Rom 10:16-17 KJV

I trust Paul.

Rev

 

[Rev20]

Yet God knew us all before the beginning, before Adam was even created, God had set up His plan for mans salvation, for He knows our beginning and our end, Since God is outside of time, time was set up for us, and it will end in its time.

The scripture seems to contradict you:

"Hear this word that the Lord hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities." -- Amos 3:1-2 KJV

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but it appears that God foreknew only the children of Israel. Can you point us to scripture that might indicate otherwise?

Rev

 

[tabletalk]

Grace, you must be referring to me, since that is my "default" position.

I find it odd that anyone would think they know the Holy Spirit and not be able to back up what they say with scripture, since the scripture is Holy Spirit given to us by those entrusted with the oracles of God. Paul, Peter, all of them gave us examples by proving their words with scripture, even Jesus. Paul, in his own words, said he preached nothing but Moses and the Prophets. And remember this Psalm?

"Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." -- Ps 119:11 KJV

The Bible is loaded with scripture that point us to the Word. Yet there are about 30,000 denominations, each claiming superior doctrine to the other. Did you every wonder why? Perhaps it is because they trust their doctrine (which all will claim to come from the "Holy Spirit") over the written Word of God.

Paul said faith comes by hearing the Word of God:

"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." -- Rom 10:16-17 KJV

I trust Paul.

Rev

If you are a part of a local church, wouldn't you be in one of those "30,000 denominations, each claiming superior doctrine to the other." ?
I kinda doubt that each one claims superior doctrines.
Many churches/denominations/communions have very similar doctrines, with various emphases.