WWJD with LGBTQ?

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The Learner

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The Learner

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The recently recovered Code of the Babylonian King Hammurabi (about 2250 B.C.), in its regulations respecting bigamy affords some interesting comparisons with modern legislation on the same subject. By that ancient statute a wife "has no blame" who remarries after her husband has been taken captive, "if there was not maintenance in his house" (§ 134). But "if there was maintenance in his house", the captive's wife who remarries "shall be prosecuted and shall be drowned' (§ 133). Another section resembles a provision of an existing New York statute. By this statute, if the second marriage be annulled because the former husband or wife is living, children of this marriage are deemed to be "legitimate children of the parent who at the time of the marriage was competent to contract" (Birdseye, Revised Statutes, 993). In like manner this code of four thousand years ago ordains that if, in the instance of the woman who "has no blame", there be children of her second marriage, she shall return to her first husband if "he return and regain his city", "but the children shall follow their own father". As if to rebuke want of patriotism or love of home the wife of a man who "has left his city and fled" might remarry and "because he hated his city and fled" the fugitive returning was not allowed to reclaim his wife (§ 136).
 

The Learner

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Heretics do away with marriages; Psychics accumulate them

III. A deacon who commits fornication after his appointment to the diaconate is to be deposed. But, after he has been rejected and ranked among the laity, he is not to be excluded from communion. For there is an ancient canon that those who have fallen from their degree are to be subjected to this kind of punishment alone.
 

The Learner

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Chapter 2. Marriage Lawful, But Not Polygamy​

We do not indeed forbid the union of man and woman, blessed by God as the seminary of the human race, and devised for the replenishment of the earth and the furnishing of the world, and therefore permitted, yet singly. For Adam was the one husband of Eve, and Eve his one wife, one woman, one rib. We grant, that among our ancestors, and the patriarchs themselves, it was lawful not only to marry, but even to multiply wives. There were concubines, too, (in those days.)


Matthew 22:24-28 (ESV)
24 saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother. 26 So too the second and third, down to the seventh. 27 After them all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had her.”
 

The Learner

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Knipperdollinck was elected burgomaster (February, 1534) and the city passed under the complete and unrestricted control of the partisans of rebaptism. Münster, instead of Strasburg, was to become the centre of the projected conquest of the world, the "New Jerusalem", the founding of which was signalized by a reign of terror and indescribable orgies. Treasures of literature and art were destroyed; communism, polygamy, and community of women were introduced. Rothmann took unto himself four wives and John of Leyden, sixteen. The latter was proclaimed King of the "New Sion", when Francis of Waldeck, Bishop and temporal lord of the city, had already begun its siege (1534).
 

The Learner

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Chapter 6. The Objection from the Polygamy of the Patriarchs Answered CHURCH FATHERS: On Exhortation to Chastity (Tertullian)


To pious and discerning readers of the sacred Scriptures evidence of the chastity of the holy men who are said to have had several wives is found in this, that Solomon, who by his polygamy gratified his passions, instead of seeking for offspring, is expressly noted as chargeable with being a lover of women. This, as we are informed by the truth which accepts no man's person, led him down into the abyss of idolatry. CHURCH FATHERS: Contra Faustum, Book XXII (Augustine)
 

The Learner

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There is no Biblical evidence that any of the Prophets lived in polygamy. Monogamous marriage was used by them as a symbol of the union of God with Israel, while polygamy was compared to polytheism or idolatrous worship (Hos. ii. 18; Isa. l. 1; Jer. ii. 2; Ezek. xvi. 8). The last chapter of Proverbs, which is a description of the purity of home life, points to a state of monogamy. The marriage with one wife thus became the ideal form with the great majority of the people; and in post-exilic times polygamy formed the rare exception (Tobit i. 10; Susanna 63; Matt. xvii. 25, xix. 9; Luke i. 5). Herod, however, is recorded as having had nine wives (Josephus, "Ant." xvii. 1, § 3). POLYGAMY - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Too much to post: MONOGAMY - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 

The Learner

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Early church period​

The church father Justin Martyr mentions that in his time Jewish men were permitted to have four or five wives,[12] and Babatha was a Jewish woman who was a second wife.

Jewish polygamy clashed with Roman monogamy at the time of the early church:

When the Christian Church came into being, polygamy was still practiced by the Jews. It is true that we find no references to it in the New Testament; and from this some have inferred that it must have fallen into disuse, and that at the time of our Lord the Jewish people had become monogamous. But the conclusion appears to be unwarranted. Josephus in two places speaks of polygamy as a recognized institution: and Justin Martyr makes it a matter of reproach to Trypho that the Jewish teachers permitted a man to have several wives. Indeed when in 212 A.D. the lex Antoniana de civitate gave the rights of Roman Citizenship to great numbers of Jews, it was found necessary to tolerate polygamy among them, even when though it was against Roman law for a citizen to have more than one wife. In 285 A.D. a constitution of Diocletian and Maximian interdicted polygamy to all subjects of the empire without exception. But with the Jews, at least, the enactment failed of its effect; and in 393 A.D. a special law was issued by Theodosius to compel the Jews to relinquish this national custom. Even so they were not induced to conform.[13]
Polygamy was not banned in the Jewish community until about 1000 A.D. by Rabbi Gershom.

The 3rd century Eusebius of Caesarea wrote the lost work "On the Numerous Progeny of the Ancients". This has been given as an example of plural marriage being reconciled with the ascetic life.[14] But it is likely that the problem dealt with was the contrast presented by the desire of the Patriarchs for a numerous offspring and the honour in which continence was held by Christians.[15]

Socrates Scholasticus wrote in the 5th century, that the Roman Emperor Valentinian I, in the fourth century, took two wives and authorized his subjects to take two wives supporting that Christians were then practicing plural marriage.[16] There is no trace of such an edict in any of the extant Roman Laws. Valentinian I divorced his first wife according to John Malalas, the Chronicon Paschale and John of Nikiu, before marrying his mistress, which was viewed as bigamy by Socrates, since the Church did not accept divorce.

Augustine wrote:That the good purpose of marriage, however, is better promoted by one husband with one wife, than by a husband with several wives, is shown plainly enough by the very first union of a married pair, which was made by the Divine Being Himself.[17]

Basil of Caesarea wrote of plural marriage that "such a state is no longer called marriage but polygamy or, indeed, a moderate fornication."[18] He ordered that those who are engaged in it should be excommunicated for up to five years, and "only after they have shown some fruitful repentance"[18] were they to be allowed back into the church. Moreover, he stated that the teachings against plural marriage are "accepted as our usual practice, not from the canons but in conformity with our predecessors."[18]

Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and Tertullian all spoke against polygamy, condemning it. Tertullian explicitly tackled the objection that polygamy was allowed for the patriarchs. He wrote:"each pronouncement and arrangement is (the act) of one and the same God; who did then indeed, in the beginning, send forth a sowing of the race by an indulgent laxity granted to the reins of connubial alliances, until the world should be replenished, until the material of the new discipline should attain to forwardness: now, however, at the extreme boundaries of the times, has checked (the command) which He had sent out, and recalled the indulgence which He had granted" (De Monogamia chapt. VI.) Tertullian also made a direct attack on the polygamous practice of some Christian cults in his work Adversus Hermogenem. According to chapter XVI of De Monogamia, Hermogenes thought it was allowed for a man to take several wives. It is also revealed in this text, that Hermogenes mixed elements of Stoicism with Christianity, and essentially created a kind of sect.[19]

 

The Learner

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POLYGAMY​

And sitting each under his vine, i.e., each man possessing his own married wife. For you are aware that the prophetic word says, ‘And his wife shall be like a fruitful vine.’…Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.254
If, then, the teaching of the prophets and of Himself moves you, it is better for you to follow God than your imprudent and blind masters, who even till this time permit each man to have four or five wives; and if any one see a beautiful woman and desire to have her, they quote the doings of Jacob [called] Israel, and of the other patriarchs, and maintain that it is not wrong to do such things; for they are miserably ignorant in this matter. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.266
Others, again, following upon Basilides and Carpocrates, have introduced promiscuous intercourse and a plurality of wives, and are indifferent about eating meats sacrificed to idols, maintaining that God does not greatly regard such matters. Irenaeus (A.D. 180) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg. 353
But far be it from Christians to conceive any such deeds; for with them temperance dwells, self-restraint is practiced, monogamy is observed, chastity is guarded. Theophilus (A.D. 180) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.115
But the followers of Carpocrates and Epiphanes think that wives should be common property. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Miscellanies, book III ch. 2
But it is the same man and Lord who makes the old new, by no longer allowing several marriages (for at that time God required it when men had to increase and multiply), and by teaching single marriage for the sake of begetting children and looking after domestic affairs, for which purpose woman was given as a “helpmeet.” Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Miscellanies, book III ch.12
For he also lays down that the bishop who is to rule the Church must be a man who governs his own household well. A household pleasing to the Lord consists of a marriage with one wife.. “To the pure,” he says, “all things are pure: but to the defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure, but their mind and conscience are polluted.” Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Miscellanies, book III ch.18
And thus, from the time of Abraham, the custom of marrying with sisters has ceased; and from the times of the prophets the contracting of marriage with several wives has been done away with; for we read, “Go not after your lusts, but refrain yourself front your appetites;”… Lest, however, we should seem prolix in collecting the testimonies of the prophets, let us again point out how chastity succeeded to marriage with one wife, taking away by degrees the lusts of the flesh, until it removed entirely the inclination for sexual intercourse engendered by habit. Methodius (A.D. 311) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.6 pg.312
Polygamy | Early Christian Commentary
 

The Learner

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One of the links claimed that Justin Mytar had four wives without giving any proof.


Justin Martyr:

"If, then, the teaching of the prophets and of Himself moves you, it is better for you [followers of Judaism] to follow God than your imprudent and blind masters, who even till this time permit each man to have four or five wives; and if any one see a beautiful woman and desire to have her, they quote the doings of Jacob called Israel, and of the other patriarchs, and maintain that it is not wrong to do such things; for they are miserably ignorant in this matter." (Dialogue With Trypho, 134)

Polygamy was rare in the early centuries of church history, but it did exist:

"Some peoples on the periphery of the empire reportedly practiced polygamy, including Thracians, Numidians and Moors (Sallust Iug. 80.6; Sextus Empiricus Pyr. 3.213; cf. Diodorus Siculus Bib. Hist. 1.80.3 on Egypt)...a few Greek philosophers supported group marriage (Diogenes Laertius Vit. 6.2.72; 7.1.131; 8.1.33)...Although the practice was not common, early Palestinian Judaism allowed polygamy (m. Sanh. 2:4), and it was practiced at least by some wealthy kings (Josephus J.W. 1.28.4 &562)." (Craig Keener, in Craig Evans and Stanley Porter, editors, Dictionary Of New Testament Background [Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press, 2000], p. 683)

That last sentence is significant in that it illustrates an important distinction we should make. The issue here isn't just how widely polygamy was practiced.

Josephus, a contemporary of the apostles, wrote that "it is the ancient practice among us to have many wives at the same time" (Antiquities Of The Jews, 17:1:2).
 

The Learner

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historical setting:

1. Polygamy was NOT practiced in Greek and Roman societies of the time:

"Even though we may find numerous traces of polygamy and polyandry in the Gk. myths, monogamy predominated in the Gk. world in the historical period. Morality within marriage was strict. The Homeric hero had one wife, who was faithful and inviolable, a good manager of the home and mother. Gk. marriage was monogamous. [NIDNTT:s.v. "Marriage, adultery, bride, bridegroom"]

"Polygamy was not practiced in the Roman world outside Palestine, though illegal bigamy and certainly adultery were. [EBC: in.loc. 1 Tim 3]

2. Polygamy was practiced somewhat in 1st century Palestinian Judaism (by the government/aristocratic leaders):

"In the Second Temple period, Jewish society was, at least theoretically, polygamous, like other oriental societies of the time but in contrast to the neighboring Greek and Roman societies...."[HI:JWGRP:85]

"There is evidence of the practice of polygamy in Palestinian Judaism in NT times (cf. J. Jeremias, Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus: An Investigation into Economic and Social Conditions during the New Testament Period, 1969, 90, 93, 369f.). Herod the Great (37-4 B.C.) had ten wives (Josephus, Ant. 17, 19f.; War 1,562) and a considerable harem (War 1,511). Polygamy and concubinage among the aristocracy is attested by Josephus, Ant. 12, 186ff.; 13, 380; War 1, 97. The continued practice of levirate marriage (Yeb. 15b) evidently led to polygamy, which was countenanced by the school of Shammai but not by that of Hillel. [NIDNTT:s.v. "Marriage, adultery, bride, bridegroom"]

3. Among the Jews, it was not accepted by the prestigious school of Hillel (above), nor by the strict Dead Sea Sect (Qumran), and was not widely practiced, esp. among the rabbi's:

"But even if polygamy was permitted by tannaitic halakhah, other halakhic systems counseled otherwise. During the Second Temple period, monogamy was preferred even on the conceptual plane by, above all, the Dead Sea Sect whose halakhah explicitly prohibited polygamy. In the reworked version of the statutes of the king in the Temple Scroll, it is stated: "he shall not take another wife in addition to her, for she alone shall be with him all the days of her life" (LVII 17-8). In the Damascus Covenant, criticism is leveled against the 'builders of the wall' (Pharisees?) in the following terms: 'they shall be caught in fornication twice; once by taking a second wife while the first is still alive...' [HI:JWGRP:85]

"it was known in Jewish society as represented in rabbinic literature, polygamy was not widespread in practice, especially not among the sages themselves." [HI:JWGRP:86]

So, polygamy was present only in a particular subset of Palestinian Judaism (not in Roman society, Greek society, Diaspora Jewish communities, the Hillel-school, or Dead Sea Sect), and generally confined to the aristocracy.

Justin Martyr (c.160) rebukes the Jews for allowing polygamy:

"Your imprudent and blind masters [i.e., Jewish teachers] even until this time permit each man to have four or five wives. And if anyone sees a beautiful woman and desires to have her, they quote the doings of Jacob." [ANF, vol. 1, p. 266]

2. Irenaeus (c.180) condemns the Gnostics for, among other things, polygamy:

"Others, again, following upon Basilides and Carpocrates, have introduced promiscuous intercourse and a plurality of wives..." [ANF, vol. 1, p.353]

3. Tertullian (c.207) was also explicit:

"Chapter II.-Marriage Lawful, But Not Polygamy. We do not indeed forbid the union of man and woman, blest by God as the seminary of the human race, and devised for the replenishment of the earth and the furnishing of the world, and therefore permitted, yet Singly. For Adam was the one husband of Eve, and Eve his one wife, one woman, one rib. (ANF: Tertullian, To His Wife)

4. Methodius (cf.290) was clear on the issue, arguing that it had stopped at the time of the Prophets:

"The contracting of marriage with several wives had been done away with from the times of the prophets. For we read, 'Do not go after your lusts, but refrain yourself from your appetites'...And in another place, 'Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.' This plainly forbids a plurality of wives." [ANF, vol. 6, p.312]

5 The Pseudo-Clementine Literature boasts about how St. Thomas taught the Parthians [i.e., an Iranian culture] to abandon polygamy:

"But I shall give a still stronger proof of the matters in hand. For, behold, scarcely seven years have yet passed since the advent of the righteous and true Prophet; and in the course of these, inert of all nations coming to Judaea, and moved both by the signs and miracles Which they saw, and by the grandeur of His doctrine, received His faith; and then going back to their own countries, they rejected the lawless rites of the Gentiles, and their incestuous marriages. In short, among the Parthians-as Thomas, who is preaching the Gospel amongst them, has written to us-not many now are addicted to polygamy; nor among the Medes do many throw their dead to dogs; nor are the Persians pleased with intercourse with their mothers, or incestuous marriages with their daughters; nor do the Susian women practise the adulteries that were allowed them; nor has Genesis been able to force those into crimes whom the teaching of religion restrained. (ANF 8: "Book IX: Chapter XXIX.-The Gospel More Powerful Than 'Genesis.'"]
The Council of Neocaesarea A.D. 315 (circa) refers to a 'purification period' for polygamists. By that time, sinners had to 'sit out' of Church activities until they had demonstrated reformation. If a sin showed up on this list of canons, it was considered a 'bad sin'--and polygamy shows up here:

"Ancient Epitome of Canon III. The time (for doing penance and purification) of polygamists is well known. A zeal for penance may shorten it." [ANF]

7. Basil, Archbishop of Caesarea, mentioned it a number of times in his letters, generally concerning the period for exclusion from church for polygamists, calling it 'limited fornication'(!):

"IV. In the case of trigamy and polygamy they laid down the same rule, in proportion, as in the case of digamy; namely one year for digamy (some authorities say two years); for trigamy men are separated for three and often for four years; but this is no longer described as marriage at all, but as polygamy; nay rather as limited fornication. It is for this reason that the Lord said to the woman of Samaria, who had five husbands, "he whom thou now hast is not thy husband." He does not reckon those who had exceeded the limits of a second marriage as worthy of the title of husband or wife. In cases of trigamy we have accepted a seclusion of five years, not by the canons, but following the precept of our predecessors. Such offenders ought not to be altogether prohibited from the privileges of the Church; they should be considered deserving of hearing after two or three years, and afterwards of being permitted to stand in their place; but they must be kept from the communion of the good gift, and only restored to the place of communion after showing some fruit of repentance. [ANF: (Canonica Prima.)To Amphilochius, concerning the Canons. Letter CLXXXVIII written c.347.]

The data for the NT seems rather clear. Although it was already a minority practice (outlawed in many countries), the stance of Jesus, Paul, and the early church is emphatically condemnatory towards it. Monogamy is upheld as God's design, His will, and His expectation for His people. Polygamy in the NT period
 

St. SteVen

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Where friend?
The big type was a link. Here it is again.


/
 
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BlessedPeace

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Deuteronomy 22:27-29
New International Version
27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

I perfer they also cut his penis off and fingers and tounge off too.
Your scripture reference is great for the Adultery thread.

I think we tend to consider Biblical narratives using a contemporary cultural context.

While, in biblical times fornication,always a reference for sex, was the sex act prior to marriage.
Making for fornication,sex,with one not our spouse was Adultery.

And don't forget the rest of that teaching in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 22:23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.
 
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Lizbeth

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I well remember a time when decorum & etiquette meant soming about the decency of humanity.

Now there is too much push to see how vulgar we can expose ourselves in public, devalue women & children and "spit" on the likes of God with this " in your face" attitude of this generation


It truly sickens me ! No wonder, how God must feel!
Know what you mean sister...it's very hard to watch all this rapid descent and devolution into what is essentially heathenism and everything that goes with that...wild incontinence and lack of restraint for one thing.....and sadly all the judgments that come because of sins. The church in general has been infected with this too and so the devil has successfully hamshackled most of the church from battling it with the sword of the Spirit...God's word! Instead the church has fallen prey to it as the world has. Nevertheless the Lord always keeps for Himself a remnant.
 

Lizbeth

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Deuteronomy 22:27-29
New International Version
27 for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

I perfer they also cut his penis off and fingers and tounge off too.
Those verse show how vital purity was/is to God, that the we not defile the 'land', His kingdom.

Well, the penalty for rape is for governments and lawmakers to decide. They are God's ministers to mete out justice and don't bear the sword for nothing. The church on the other hand is Gods minister of mercy (just don't let we mistake that for being a minister of sin).
 

OneIsTheWord

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Christians tend to treat LGBTQ as if it is a singular thing. It's not.
It's a very complex subject that the church has, for the most part, swept under the rug.

Those who have stepped up to be inclusive have taken the heat for it.
And there is even a broad spectrum of how inclusion can play out.
LGBTQ is not a B+W issue. There is a whole spectrum of gray to be considered.

I have known for some time that this is an issue that the church needs to come to grips with.
My own wake-up call came when I went back to college in my 50's to study interior design.
Among my classmates I discovered gay Christians. Say what? How could this be?
For this straight, white, married, Protestant, evangelical male, it was quite a shock.

In my interior design class, I estimated that 10% were males. The rest were female.
Of those males I estimated that half were probably gay. So, an estimated 5% gay students.
My instructors even cautioned me that if I worked as an interior designer,
I would likely be accused of being gay.

So, I had to ask myself, WWJD with LGBTQ?

Because of another topic on the forum that has a title that asks the WRONG question,
I wanted to launch a topic that would ask the right questions.

I have done my homework as part of that other topic.
And I am still making some discoveries about the subject.
Here are a few.

- There is a 40% suicide rate among gays, which is driven by societal rejection. (genocide)
- Parental testimony shows children indicating a transgender preference as early as 3 to 5 years old.
- 1 in 1,500 children are born intersex, meaning either both, or ambiguous genitalia.
- Birth sex is determined by what is between your legs; gender identity is determined by what is between your ears.
- Christian gays that come out are at risk of losing, family, friends, church, employment, housing...
- Many gay couples are monogamous, and great contributors to our society.

There are other factors as well. This is a place to discuss them. Thanks.

WWJD with LGBTQ?



/ @TinMan @BarneyFife @Chadrho @Hillsage
no one is disputing their contributions, yes they deserve better.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Heb 6:4-8 (NKJV)

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he will be saved, yet so as through fire.
1 Cor 3:12-15 (NKJV)
 
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