Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Point out the exact scripture and we can examine it....a vague reference will not suffice.
YES, Lord Jesus Christ DID Claim To Be GOD
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
But not you?
Did you take the correction from Gen 1:27? The man was "created". But let me guess...the man wasn't Adam.....right?Perhaps you could clearly point it out to us....your assertions are not clear.
No, that is not the proof you think it is.
“Since the revelation given in the Scriptures embraces a complete system of truth, every single department must sustain many obvious relations, logical and otherwise, to every other as the several parts of one whole. The imperfect development, and the defective or exaggerated conception of any one doctrine, must inevitably lead to confusion and error throughout the entire system”, (A.A. Hodge, Outlines of Theology: Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism and Augustinism).
Bible hermeneutics is often discussed by not often performed. Those who do attempt to understand what the writers of the books in our bibles intended to convey to us are lost because of several reasons. Our first problem is that we don't have the mind or culture of a 2000-year-old Jewish person. The second is that bible translators did not either as they put the manuscripts into our language. The their issue is that we are people who enjoy being part of a group and believe if we correct if so many others agree with us.
I think it is important to understand how something can exist before it physically exists;
Article on “Preexistence” in the Dictionary of the Later New Testament & Its Developments helpfully notes that,
“The pre-existent state may be described as ideal (existence in the mind or plan of God) or actual (existence alongside and distinct from God).”
Thus, it is well understood within Biblical scholarship that pre-existence may mean either that something or someone may literally exist in Heaven (the ‘incarnational’ model already mentioned) or may be of the Jewish ‘ideal’ type where something or someone may exist in God’s mind before He literally brings it into material existence.
There is a mountain of Jewish literature that confirms how all-pervasive “notional” pre-existence was in Jewish thinking at the time of Christ. One of the most prominent scholars in modern christological studies, Larry Hurtado, states,
“There is today a virtual consensus among scholars that the pre-Christian Jewish tradition provides the most important background for the idea of pre-existence in the NT”.
Regarding the Jewish understanding of foreknowledge, the article in the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia is helpful:
…the term foreknowledge is an expansion of the idea of God’s “counsel” or plan, regarding it as an intelligent prearrangement, the idea of foreknowledge being assimilated to that of foreordination. The same idea is found in [1 Pet. 1:20]. Here the apostle speaks of Christ as a lamb “foreordained” by God before the foundation of the world…It has the idea of a purpose which determines the course of the Divine procedure.
This evidence must be seriously considered before we conclude Jesus was actually living and conscious as God before his appearance on earth, otherwise we run the risk of imposing on the Bible our own traditional cultural reading, no matter how “orthodox” we may imagine it to be. That is the error of eisegesis, reading into the text, rather than exegesis, reading out of the text as the original readers thousands of years ago would have done.
Notional pre-existence is the idea that something or someone may ‘exist’ in the mind of God before actualizing on earth in history at the appointed time. What God purposes and decrees is considered so certain that it is spoken of as though it already exists. Indeed God is the One who “calls those things which are not as though they were” (Rom. 4:17). That is, what God promises already exists with Him “in Heaven”. When Jews spoke of something or someone pre-existing in heaven they understood it was “ideal” or “notional” in God’s foreknowledge, but not yet actual on earth. That is, it already existed in God’s mind and in God’s plan.
Hebrews 7 is yet another... Bible Scripture proof that Jesus of Nazareth is God come in the flesh.
Hebrews 7 describes Melchizedek of The Old Testament, being without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life, but made like unto The Son of God! and abideth a priest continually! That is about Lord Jesus Christ back in The Old Testament times as Melchizedek who met Abraham.
Heb 7:1-3
7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
KJV
Who... could that be, that had no mother or father, without descent, nor beginning of days or end of life, but made like unto the Son of God? Anyone saying that was just some human like us has to be out of their mind. Nor will stupid remarks work, like, "What that says there in verse 3 above is not really what it means." Verse 3 means exactly... as it reads!
Heb 7:11-17
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
The Levitical priesthood is 'dead' today. It was a fleshy priesthood per the old covenant. God's people are NO LONGER UNDER THE OLD COVENANT. Jesus of Nazareth, The Son of God, brought us the New Covenant by His Blood shed on His cross for those who believe.
But the "order of Melchisedec" is an ETERNAL PRIESTHOOD, everlasting, and not temporary like the fleshy Levitical priesthood was.
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For He of Whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Right there in those two above verses is Biblical Proof that Jesus of Nazareth was the Melchizedek that met Abraham back in Old Testament times, and was then known as the "king of Salem" (more on that later below).
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, "Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."
KJV
That last reference above is per Psalms 110:4 what The Father said about The Son Jesus Christ.
Ps 110:4
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, "Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."
KJV
Jesus is our King (Rev.19:16). He was our King before, Eternally. And that is what the "order of Melchizedek" is about, for the Hebrew of the name Melchizedek literally means -- "King of Righteousness" like Hebrews 7:2 says.
So once again brethren in Christ, I'd be very careful with listening to the 'lackeys' here that have NO intention of actually sticking to what God's Word says in simplicity, for they are here on this Forum pushing man's agendas, because of God having blinded their understanding so they do not have ears to hear, nor eyes to see.
Hebrews 7 describes Melchizedek of The Old Testament, being without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life, but made like unto The Son of God! and abideth a priest continually! That is about Lord Jesus Christ back in The Old Testament times as Melchizedek who met Abraham.
Heb 7:1-3
7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
KJV
Who... could that be, that had no mother or father, without descent, nor beginning of days or end of life, but made like unto the Son of God? Anyone saying that was just some human like us has to be out of their mind. Nor will stupid remarks work, like, "What that says there in verse 3 above is not really what it means." Verse 3 means exactly... as it reads!
Heb 7:11-17
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
The Levitical priesthood is 'dead' today. It was a fleshy priesthood per the old covenant. God's people are NO LONGER UNDER THE OLD COVENANT. Jesus of Nazareth, The Son of God, brought us the New Covenant by His Blood shed on His cross for those who believe.
But the "order of Melchisedec" is an ETERNAL PRIESTHOOD, everlasting, and not temporary like the fleshy Levitical priesthood was.
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For He of Whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Right there in those two above verses is Biblical Proof that Jesus of Nazareth was the Melchizedek that met Abraham back in Old Testament times, and was then known as the "king of Salem" (more on that later below).
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, "Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."
KJV
That last reference above is per Psalms 110:4 what The Father said about The Son Jesus Christ.
Ps 110:4
4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, "Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek."
KJV
Jesus is our King (Rev.19:16). He was our King before, Eternally. And that is what the "order of Melchizedek" is about, for the Hebrew of the name Melchizedek literally means -- "King of Righteousness" like Hebrews 7:2 says.
So once again brethren in Christ, I'd be very careful with listening to the 'lackeys' here that have NO intention of actually sticking to what God's Word says in simplicity, for they are here on this Forum pushing man's agendas, because of God having blinded their understanding so they do not have ears to hear, nor eyes to see.
And none of that shows that Jesus is his Father. Melchizedek was a priest unto God as in the Father. God is not going to be a priest unto himself. You do not pretend to be yourself, you simple stand as yourself.
Can you please just snap out of your delusions.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Has no one raised the obvious question here? @Traveler you read my mind...
Please tell us how God can be his own priest....
What is a priest?....A man who officially represented God to the people he served, instructing them about God and his laws. Priests also represented the people before God, offering sacrifices as well as interceding and pleading for the people.
Please explain how Jesus can be God and his own priest....you guys don't seem to think things through......do you?
If Jesus is our King and High Priest.....for whom is he performing this duty? Melchizedek was a type for the priesthood of Jesus, no question, .....but for whom did Melchizedek serve as a High Priest? The same God that Jesus serves....his heavenly Father...."our Father who art in heaven".
Jesus is also our appointed "Mediator between God and men".....so if Jesus is the one mediating between two estranged parties. he cannot be one of the parties.....if he is God then we need a mediator between us and him too. No such mediator exists.
Every time I see you post something like this, all I see is the warning that Jesus gave about the Pharisees preaching their "leaven"...they warned the people repeatedly not to listen to Jesus and his apostles because they were not preaching God's word......what did Jesus say about those Pharisees?
"You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
Every teaching of Christendom is "the commands of men as doctrines".
God is "one" not "three". (Deut 6:4) John 1:1 is a woeful translation of the Greek.
There is no immortal soul. (Eccl 9:5, 10) Those in the grave are silent. (Psalm 115:17)
There is no eternal hell of fiery torment.....
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev 20:11-15 KJV)
How can death and hell be cast into the lake of fire? What is "hell"? What is "gehenna" and what is "the lake of fire"? Do you have any idea?
You parrot off 'the party line' without ever investigating whether the things you have been taught are really true.
Who formulated those beliefs? It was the RCC.....an apostate church, foretold by Jesus and his apostles that gave birth to all the daughters she spawned.....all of them took their mother's dirty laundry with them.
It is not difficult at all for Brethren in Jesus Christ who do... believe Jesus is God, to see how God has BLINDED some away from spiritual understanding in His Word of Truth. Be careful of them brethren, because they will lead you to dark paths away from the simplicity that is God's Word.
Matt 1:21-23
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
KJV
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
It is not logical or scriptural for God to act as his own High Priest or Mediator....these are two roles in service to God.
Only someone brainwashed would not notice that this doesn't make sense.
What if its you who has been spiritually blinded? Would you know? Where do your beliefs come from? From the RCC, not from the Bible.
These are ancient lies told to the men whom Jesus said were "sleeping" whilst the devil planted his "weeds" of counterfeit Christianity.
You cannot counter what I say because you have no specific scripture to back up what you believe...you have the doctrines concocted by "the church" after the apostles passed away......the apostasy was foretold and the RCC was a product of that apostasy. All that you believe came from them....have you never done any research on the origins of your beliefs?
Your warnings ring hollow.....the scriptures you use are well worn but completely mistranslated and misapplied to fit "the doctrines of men".... (Matt 15:-9)
Like this one....
No one denies that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary in fulfillment of Isaiah's prophesy, but he was called Jesus, not Immanuel.
The name "Immanuel" means that God was "with" his worshippers by means of his son. It can also be translated "With us is God".
How was God "with" his people Israel before Jesus was born into the world? It was by means of his first mediator, Moses. A "prophet like Moses" was foretold, and he came in the person of Jesus Christ. Both were mediators of a covenant....Moses for the old, and Jesus for the new. Just as Moses led Israel out of Egypt, so Jesus will lead his disciples out of the false Christianity that has spread like weeds in the world of today.....there are hundreds of different varieties of "weeds", but only one strain of "wheat".....that is what Jesus will find when he comes to judge the "sheep and the goats".....he knows which is which, but the 'goats' have convinced themselves that they are 'sheep'......they will recoil at Jesus' rejection of them.....(Matt :21-23)
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Nowhere in God's Word does it declare that Christ is His Own High Priest. That idea is just silly idle words.
Orthodox Judaism is what has "brainwashed" many Jews away from understanding that Jesus of Nazareth is GOD having come in the flesh, and that applies equally to Jewish converts to Christ who still refuse Jesus as God, which show they have been busy listening to the Jew's religion instead of God in His Word.
You need to study Hebrews 7 which declares Jesus Christ as the Melchizedek Who met Abraham, and then maybe you'll 'snap out of your Orthodox Judaism delusion'.
Melchizedek means 'King of Righteousness', and that Title is one of Christ's Titles as High Priest, meaning 'our' High Priest, NOT God's High Priest, for you are just making that up as an EXCUSE, and is a stupid fabrication the "synagogue of Satan" has taught you.
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
I think we might consider no longer trying to convince any JW to read and understand the NT.
They are in a world of their own Brainwashed to the highest degree n thinking they are the only Elect of God.
'High Priest' are ordained as 'mediator' and 'intercessor' between GOD and man, as Moses was according to the Old Testament. In these last days, Lord Jesus Christ became the Great High Priest in Heaven, serving GOD the FATHER in Heaven and believers on earth. Similarly, also being a 'mediator' and 'intercessor' between GOD in Heaven and HIS people on earth.
Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life, for no one goes to the FATHER except by Me."
What an irony to testify He is the High Priest for man alone, therefore He mediate and intercesses between Himself and man ??
In Hebrews 1:8-12, GOD the FATHER says to God and Lord the Son, Jesus, seated on the right hand of the Majesty on high. There are two individual in Heaven, GOD the FATHER and God the Son.
While God the Son is the Great High Priest for GOD in Heaven and for the church here on earth, period.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The silliness comes from declaring that Jesus is God and then trying to fit that idea in with the fact that he is our High Priest who is God’s representative in leading his people in worship….not of himself, but of HIS God.
Neither Jehovah or his Christ have ever said that the son was “God”.
It was Roman Catholicism that invented 'three gods in one entity'….the Bible never did…..not to Jews, or to the first Christians. All reference to Jesus as God is by inference and suggestion, never from a direct statement, which if it were true, would be plastered all over God’s word so that there could be no argument. The argument still rages.....
I feel sure that there will be a day when the argument is over. I do not think it will be good to be the one who placed anyone equal to Yahweh.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Vague references is all they got.
It amazes me that an idea completely missing from the 66 books of Scripture is deemed the central message of Christianity.
The argument ends right now, to place Jesus the Son as scripturally depicted, being equal with the FATHER.
For it is written, 'Who, being in the form of GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD: ..................' (Phil 2:6)
Supporting verses, (Col 1:15 beginning), (Hebrews1:3)
In other words, 'Jesus, being in the form of GOD in equality, but only Himself thought it not robbery to be equal with GOD.'
And, "I and the FATHER are one."
Has anyone in Heaven or on earth have claimed such, even putting Himself before the FATHER, being one and equal ??
Furthermore, "Before Abraham was, I Am."
If Jesus wanted to claim His preexistence before Abraham to the Jews, He could have said, ".........................., I was."
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
No, he never was. “Jehovah” “is the Most High over all the earth” (Psalm 83:18) There is no one higher than Jehovah God. Jesus is never called Jehovah, though he has many other names.
That is a really bad translation.....
It should read.....”who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped” (ESV) ...that is the very opposite of what your chosen translation says. Look it up in the Greek Interlinear.
Existing in God’s “form”......what “form” does God have? The Bible says that “God is a spirit”...so the prehuman Jesus was also a “spirit”. He was the son of God but did not want to eclipse his Father in any way.
Are you serious?
Col 1:15....”He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” (ESV)
How can a visible man be the image of an invisible God?
It means he has the same qualities and character as his Father....and he is “the firstborn of all creation” making him the very first of God’s creations. (Rev 3:14) Even in heaven Jehovah is still his God. (Rev 3:12)
Heb 1:3-4...
“He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.“
All that says is that Jesus was a reflection of his Father’s glory and nature.....do we doubt that he has power given to him by his God and Father? He participated in creation did he not? (Prov 8:30-31) What about the next verse?
“After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.”
What is this telling us? That after his mission was completed, he returned to heaven, sitting at his Father’s right hand, “having become superior to the angels” and he ‘inherited a name more excellent than theirs’...?
You really think this is talking about God?
You really have no idea about what scripture actually says do you?
This is a “oneness” of spirit and purpose, just as Jesus said that he and his disciples were “one”....(John 17:22)....unless you think that they are part of the trinity too?
You are funny....because that is exactly what he said....the Jews asked him a question about his age, not his status as a deity.....the question was in the past tense....
“Then the Jews said to him: “You are not yet 50 years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”
He answered them in the past tense, saying that he existed before Abraham was born.
You really need to do some homework.....
So how do you explain these scriptures, and how do you explain Yeshua permitting people to worship Him?
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
How do you explain that Yeshua is on the throne of His Father?
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
We are instructed to call YHVH Our Father I do this as instructed. We are not told to call Him YHVH a name we are told is Jehovah. We are told to use FATHER.
Is Yeshua the saviour or not..? What then did God say? So I don't understand the problem.
Except Jesus Christ Who is GOD The Savior, even Immanuel, which means 'God with us'. If you don't recognize Jesus Christ as GOD The Savior, then you place your salvation in danger, because only GOD can save one's soul. The New Testament declares that Jesus is GOD in several places, so there is no excuse.
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