You can not be my disciples, unless? (The Cost)

[MatthewG]

Luke 14:25-35 The Cost of Being a Disciple​

25 A large crowd was following Jesus. He turned around and said to them,​

With a large crowd was following Jesus. He turned around and said to them,
Jesus always talked in Parables when others came around that were not his chosen apostles. They were allowed to know about what Jesus spoke about, however be it crowds or anyone else, he would always speak in parables.​

26 “If you want to be my disciple, you must, by comparison, hate everyone else—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple.​

Jesus says to them, if you want to be my disciples,

"You must, - by comparison - hate everyone else, (Some would take this literally but remember this is a Parable and he is speaking on spiritual matters. He goes on to say - that would mean your father, and mother, wife, and children, brothers, and sisters - yes even your own life.
Otherwise you cannot be my disciple."

What a hard saying to be in a large crowd like this and hear what has just been stated above.

What does Jesus mean by this as a spiritual principle?

While you have your family, friends, and neighbors that you have relations with, and you can listen to their advice, and hear them out about things, and consider what they say, even enjoy having meals and dining together.

Your life in serving the King, the Lord of life itself, you will in turn love other people better, than if you simply reside on everything that they say, and their wisdom.

It becomes the responsibility of you to choose to Love the Lord Your God, with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind and all your strength relying on - the Spirit - rather than the worldly ways of the flesh you will in turn actually love your mother, your brother, your sister, your wife, and children better than working in the flesh which nothing good comes from.​

27 And if you do not carry your own cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciple.​

He goes on speaking to the crowds, saying "And if you do not carry your own cross, and follow me, you cannot be my disciples."

The cross at the time was the capital death punishment, the Romans did this and people would see others on these cross as they walked along and traveled on the road side.

What is Jesus meaning here? They too would have to die a death that he did, but it's dying to the self-will, and to live for the will of God instead just as he was doing as the one whom was named Emmanuel (God with Us).​

28 “But don’t begin until you count the cost. For who would begin construction of a building without first calculating the cost to see if there is enough money to finish it? 29 Otherwise, you might complete only the foundation before running out of money, and then everyone would laugh at you. 30 They would say, ‘There’s the person who started that building and couldn’t afford to finish it!’​

Jesus goes on to tell the crowd around him, that they should count the cost. Because there would be many that would start building in that day, but then fall away. Therefore he is saying make sure this is what you wanna do before you choose to do it because you will have to deny yourself and place the Lord your God first, above all other things, and to follow him, to be his disciple, and to build on a solid foundation that would never topple over, compared to the worldly seeking which was a foundation on the sand it would fall over.

So you have to choose what you wanna do, and count the cost.
Is following Jesus worth - hating your own mother, brother, sister?​

31 “Or what king would go to war against another king without first sitting down with his counselors to discuss whether his army of 10,000 could defeat the 20,000 soldiers marching against him? 32 And if he can’t, he will send a delegation to discuss terms of peace while the enemy is still far away. 33 So you cannot become my disciple without giving up everything you own.​

Again, another teaching of self-denial, is it worth losing everything you built on others, to build on the Lord Yeshua?​

34 “Salt is good for seasoning. But if it loses its flavor, how do you make it salty again? 35 Flavorless salt is good neither for the soil nor for the manure pile. It is thrown away. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!”​

While people can make their choice, if they start to fall back, from their former stance, they should again count the cost, as the offer of newness of life is always there.​

 

[Johann]

While people can make their choice, if they start to fall back, from their former stance, they should again count the cost, as the offer of newness of life is always there.

"anyone" What a wonderful word! Thank God for the Bible's invitations to "anyone," "everyone," "as many as," and "whosoever"! However, there are also demands and requirements. Notice it comes contextually after Luke 14:21! All are welcome (cf. John 1:12; 3:16,36; 6:46; 11:25-26; Rom. 3:22; 9:33; 10:4,11,12; 1 John 3:23; 5:13)!

"comes to me"

This is the personal requirement for salvation (much like John's Gospel). Faith in Jesus is key to forgiveness and a personal relationship with God. We were created (cf. Gen. 1:26-27) to know Him and fellowship with Him (cf. Gen. 3:8). Life without Him is futile and empty (i.e., Mark 8:36). As Augustine said, there is a God-shaped hole in every human being, and we will never be happy until we find peace with Him.



"hate his own father" This is a Hebrew idiom of comparison (cf. Gen. 29:31,33; Deut. 21:15; Mal. 1:2-3 [Rom. 9:13]; John 12:25). It is obvious that this cannot be taken literally because of Jesus' statement of honoring your father and mother in Matt. 15:4, which reflects the Ten Commandments.

This section speaks of death to self (cf. Gal. 2:20) and earthly priorities. In the Near East commitment to family superceded every other commitment, but Jesus must become believers' first priority (cf. Luke 12:49-53; Matt. 10:34-39).

"even his own life"
Jesus sets the pattern of ministry (cf. Luke 9:23; 17:33; 1 John 3:16).

"he cannot be My disciple"
This point is emphasized in Luke 14:27 and 33. It is difficult to balance the grace of God so clearly demonstrated in the parable of the Great Banquet (Luke 14:15-24) with the radical call to a complete sacrifice of self in Luke 14:25-33. Both are true. Grace initiates and provides, but receivers must make a life-altering, priority choice! Followship (Luke 14:25) is not the same as discipleship. Just as in the parable of the soils, germination is not the same as fruit bearing!

14:27 "Whoever does not carry his own cross"
This refers not to problems believers face, but to death itself (cf. Luke 9:23-26; Matt. 10:34-39; 16:24; Gal. 2:20). It was the custom in Palestine of the first century for condemned prisoners who were to be crucified to carry the cross beam to the place of crucifixion.

14:28-32 This speaks of the need to recognize the cost of followship! No quick decisions! The gospel is absolutely free, but it costs everything that we are and have (cf. Matt. 13:44-46).

In light of this, western modern Christianity is a weak manifestation of "what's in it for me" cultural religion!

Modern western Christians have turned biblical faith into a weekly event, a place we park our car for a few hours instead of a 24 hour-a-day, seven-day-a-week relationship of service to Christ. We only give the leftovers of our busy lives and plans to Him. We worship and praise Him with peripherals and non-essentials. This is why we have such large, beautiful church buildings and elaborate organizations and programs and NO SPIRITUAL POWER, NO CHANGED LIVES, NO WHATEVER-IT-TAKES ATTITUDES!! God forgive us for cultural, peripheral, easy believism!

Just one additional thought, this emphasis on counting the cost of discipleship must also relate to the age one receives Christ. One must be old enough to

know the Scriptures
know that they violated them
understand the gospel
be able to access the "cost of discipleship"
If "decisions" are made too early they result in confused Christians or perpetual "pre-Christians"!

J.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello Johann,

Just one additional thought, this emphasis on counting the cost of discipleship must also relate to the age one receives Christ. One must be old enough to

know the Scriptures
know that they violated them
understand the gospel
be able to access the "cost of discipleship"
If "decisions" are made too early they result in confused Christians or perpetual "pre-Christians"!


That is something to consider, Many people of different ages come to the Lord Jesus Christ, and everyone does start off as babes in Christ, but how enriching it is to go and seek and learn and grow and abide in him.

A LIFE TRANSFORMED! Praise Yahava, and the Lord Jesus Christ, for renewing a person from the carnal mind to a spiritual mind that is filled with peace!

Good to see you, again it has been a long time.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Luke 14:25-35 The Cost of Being a Disciple​

With a large crowd was following Jesus. He turned around and said to them,
Jesus always talked in Parables when others came around that were not his chosen apostles. They were allowed to know about what Jesus spoke about, however be it crowds or anyone else, he would always speak in parables.

Jesus says to them, if you want to be my disciples,

"You must, - by comparison - hate everyone else, (Some would take this literally but remember this is a Parable and he is speaking on spiritual matters. He goes on to say - that would mean your father, and mother, wife, and children, brothers, and sisters - yes even your own life.
Otherwise you cannot be my disciple."

What a hard saying to be in a large crowd like this and hear what has just been stated above.

What does Jesus mean by this as a spiritual principle?

While you have your family, friends, and neighbors that you have relations with, and you can listen to their advice, and hear them out about things, and consider what they say, even enjoy having meals and dining together.

Your life in serving the King, the Lord of life itself, you will in turn love other people better, than if you simply reside on everything that they say, and their wisdom.

It becomes the responsibility of you to choose to Love the Lord Your God, with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind and all your strength relying on - the Spirit - rather than the worldly ways of the flesh you will in turn actually love your mother, your brother, your sister, your wife, and children better than working in the flesh which nothing good comes from.

He goes on speaking to the crowds, saying "And if you do not carry your own cross, and follow me, you cannot be my disciples."

The cross at the time was the capital death punishment, the Romans did this and people would see others on these cross as they walked along and traveled on the road side.

What is Jesus meaning here? They too would have to die a death that he did, but it's dying to the self-will, and to live for the will of God instead just as he was doing as the one whom was named Emmanuel (God with Us).

Jesus goes on to tell the crowd around him, that they should count the cost. Because there would be many that would start building in that day, but then fall away. Therefore he is saying make sure this is what you wanna do before you choose to do it because you will have to deny yourself and place the Lord your God first, above all other things, and to follow him, to be his disciple, and to build on a solid foundation that would never topple over, compared to the worldly seeking which was a foundation on the sand it would fall over.

So you have to choose what you wanna do, and count the cost.
Is following Jesus worth - hating your own mother, brother, sister?

Again, another teaching of self-denial, is it worth losing everything you built on others, to build on the Lord Yeshua?

While people can make their choice, if they start to fall back, from their former stance, they should again count the cost, as the offer of newness of life is always there.​

Discipleship is different fro mbeing saved. It is something that comes after one is saved.

We are all called to discipleship and one must consider the cost- for it requires all. If one fails in discipleship or only goes so far and then stops, that doesn't mean they have lost their salvation (relationship) but it does mean their fellowship with God is hindered

 

[amadeus]

Discipleship is different fro mbeing saved. It is something that comes after one is saved.

We are all called to discipleship and one must consider the cost- for it requires all. If one fails in discipleship or only goes so far and then stops, that doesn't mean they have lost their salvation (relationship) but it does mean their fellowship with God is hindered

And what might be the cost if your conclusion is wrong? God knows.

 

[MatthewG]

Ronald,

You bring up an important subject matter, that crosses my mind, about that Parable of the Sower, and the warning of not falling away.

Parable of the Farmer Scattering Seed - Luke Chapter 8​

4 One day Jesus told a story in the form of a parable to a large crowd that had gathered from many towns to hear him: 5 “A farmer went out to plant his seed. As he scattered it across his field, some seed fell on a footpath, where it was stepped on, and the birds ate it.

6 Other seed fell among rocks. It began to grow, but the plant soon wilted and died for lack of moisture.

7 Other seed fell among thorns that grew up with it and choked out the tender plants.

8 Still other seed fell on fertile soil. This seed grew and produced a crop that was a hundred times as much as had been planted!” When he had said this, he called out, “Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”

9 His disciples asked him what this parable meant.

10 He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets[a] of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables to teach the others so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled:

‘When they look, they won’t really see.
When they hear, they won’t understand.’[b]

11 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is God’s word.

12 The seeds that fell on the footpath represent those who hear the message, only to have the devil come and take it away from their hearts and prevent them from believing and being saved.

13 The seeds on the rocky soil represent those who hear the message and receive it with joy. But since they don’t have deep roots, they believe for a while, then they fall away when they face temptation.

14 The seeds that fell among the thorns represent those who hear the message, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the cares and riches and pleasures of this life. And so they never grow into maturity.

15 And the seeds that fell on the good soil represent honest, good-hearted people who hear God’s word, cling to it, and patiently produce a huge harvest.
​

A Call to Spiritual Growth - Warning not to fall away - Hebrews 5:11-6:1-12​

11 There is much more we would like to say about this, but it is difficult to explain, especially since you are spiritually dull and don’t seem to listen. 12 You have been believers so long now that you ought to be teaching others. Instead, you need someone to teach you again the basic things about God’s word.[a] You are like babies who need milk and cannot eat solid food. 13 For someone who lives on milk is still an infant and doesn’t know how to do what is right. 14 Solid food is for those who are mature, who through training have the skill to recognize the difference between right and wrong.

6 So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds[b] and placing our faith in God. 2 You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.

4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

7 When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. 8 But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.

9 Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don’t believe it applies to you. We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation. 10 For God is not unjust. He will not forget how hard you have worked for him and how you have shown your love to him by caring for other believers,[c] as you still do. 11 Our great desire is that you will keep on loving others as long as life lasts, in order to make certain that what you hope for will come true. 12 Then you will not become spiritually dull and indifferent. Instead, you will follow the example of those who are going to inherit God’s promises because of their faith and endurance.​

 

[MatthewG]

Amadeus, it is very possible to fall away from faith all together, which is different than babes in Christ, who struggle with the flesh and the spirit, and still need milk and go to meat as they mature, walking by faith, and walking in the spirit.

The Bible has a whole - one wouldn't be able to Once Saved, Always Saved at face value.

A relationship requires to people, God is always calling and listening by the spirit - but it up to us to reach out and pray and ask him and talk to him, and to read and learn and grow in him.

That is why the writer of hebrews wrote,

Hebrews 11:6 And it is impossible to please God without faith. Anyone who wants to come to him must believe that God exists and that he rewards those who sincerely seek him.

And also there are many the profess to know God, but do not do what he says.

Paul wrote to Titus about the time in his day, when he was in Crete:

They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

That is why it is encouraged to refresh others in the LORD, as we are still alive, so they can think, and remember, and continue forward. Though as my friend said this morning.

Everyone has their choice.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And what might be the cost if your conclusion is wrong? God knows.

Do you mean if one can lose their salvation? That is not possible according to the Word of God.

 

[MatthewG]

Do you mean if one can lose their salvation? That is not possible according to the Word of God.

Do you remember the Parable of the Sower?

The Parable of the Sower​

13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.

5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]


16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:

19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”​

 

[MatthewG]

It's very possible that someone can walk with God, for a long time and circumstances and doubt creep in, or persecution because of believing in God and the Lord Jesus Christ, people can slowly fade away as the spirit of disbelief comes about, @Ronald Nolette.

There is no such thing as once saved always saved.
There is also no way to quote scripture out of context, when it may be possible to say otherwise.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you remember the Parable of the Sower?

The Parable of the Sower​

13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.

5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

10 The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”

11 He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

13 This is why I speak to them in parables:

“Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]


16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:

19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.

20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”​

I know and have taught on this parable many many times. what are you trying to get at?

 

[MatthewG]

Just sharing, the lesson. There is nothing wrong with sharing the words of the Lord and his lessons here on this website for people look at and read through, @Ronald Nolette.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's very possible that someone can walk with God, for a long time and circumstances and doubt creep in, or persecution because of believing in God and the Lord Jesus Christ, people can slowly fade away as the spirit of disbelief comes about, @Ronald Nolette.

There is no such thing as once saved always saved.
There is also no way to quote scripture out of context, when it may be possible to say otherwise.

Once saved always saved is the biblical truth!

Sin is no longer the issue. Once a person has accepted Christ--all of their sins have been removed.

If a person could lose thier salvation because of sin (and loss of faith is a sin), then Jesus did not die for all the sins of a person.

 

[MatthewG]

I imagine most of the time the reaction is "well they were never saved anyway..."

That is such a horrible sentence.

 

[MatthewG]

Once saved always saved is the biblical truth!

Sin is no longer the issue. Once a person has accepted Christ--all of their sins have been removed.

If a person could lose thier salvation because of sin (and loss of faith is a sin), then Jesus did not die for all the sins of a person.

It's the spirit of disbelief that starts to creep in when people turn away from God, @Ronald Nolette.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Just sharing, the lesson. There is nothing wrong with sharing the words of the Lord and his lessons here on this website for people look at and read through, @Ronald Nolette.

That is always fine, but when you are on a thread and then post a Scripture without it pertaining to the topic, you should say so. Otherwise people will wonder what you are trying to convey.

 

[MatthewG]

That is always fine, but when you are on a thread and then post a Scripture without it pertaining to the topic, you should say so. Otherwise people will wonder what you are trying to convey.

People can think freely as they want.

If people are able to fall away from faith, then once saved always saved is false.

It's the spirit of disbelief that starts to creep in the heart, which people turn away from faith.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

People can think freely as they want.

If people are able to fall away from faith, then once saved always saved is false.

It's the spirit of disbelief that starts to creep in the heart, which people turn away from faith.

What you write is personal opinion and not Scripture. Scripture contradicts that.

Gods Word speaks of people who lived religiously but God never knew them (MAtt. 7) and people who once fellowshipped but left for they never were saved( 1 JOn 5) but never speaks of someone being born again, then becoming unborn again, or someone becoming a child of god and then God stripping away their family line with HIm.

 

[MatthewG]

What you write is personal opinion and not Scripture. Scripture contradicts that.

Gods Word speaks of people who lived religiously but God never knew them (MAtt. 7) and people who once fellowshipped but left for they never were saved( 1 JOn 5) but never speaks of someone being born again, then becoming unborn again, or someone becoming a child of god and then God stripping away their family line with HIm.

Jesus said 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Is he a liar, Ronald?

That is the typical response "they were never saved to begin with so it doesn't matter", @Ronald Nolette.

Even Hebrews wrote about people falling away, but God still calls out to them, and loves them...

Hebrews 6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

[MatthewG]

You can believe what you want to @Ronald Nolette I disagree, but love you either way. There is evidence of people receiving the word with joy for a little while, before falling away cause of no root. Therefore Jesus Christ is telling a truth that some people go after, but after a short time - due to the world - the spirit of disbelief keeps them from going forward due to persecution, even could be because of doubt, trouble.