You don’t know; we Jews know

[Matthias]

No one is going to hell over worshipping "GOD". God doesn't mind. The only thing God minds is grieving the Holy Spirit. As far as worship goes, we know exactly who we worship and why.

“Blessed be the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah.“ Jewish monotheism.

He knows that I worship him and he knows why I worship him. Sword rattling and verbal abuse (not to mention physical abuse) imposed by non-Jewish monotheists doesn’t persuade me.

Although the gentile is adopted, the spirit of God is still being poured out upon "ALL" flesh yet while they were still in sin, and without the knowledge of O.T. Laws. God knows "what" He's doing. We need to be circumcised of the Heart, the flesh/blood of animals, no longer rules.

 

[talons]

Today, the Father and the spirit of Christ speak to me more than in my earlier years. And I cannot be sure if the Father alone or Jesus or one of his messengers (angels or other chosen people) speak to me for God, our Father. They seem to be very much together, performing as one cohesive collection of spirits for the purpose of God,

Thanks for your post !
Working together , I can agree on that . I have dreams with information that comes from the Heavenly realm and just how I get them is not known . Sometimes I do have words spoken to me . Once I am pretty sure the Holy Spirit told me what a very wet snarl , unlike any animal I have ever heard , in the dark that was right behind me , I heard these words "That's Demonic " and I certainly had no trouble believing that either ! The Holy Spirit is the Comforter and the words "That's Demonic" came exactly a couple seconds before or right as I heard the snarl because I had none of the fear reactions .

 

[Matthias]

“You don’t know” but you can know.

The creeds aren’t going to tell you what ”we Jews” know. Jesus will; and he has.

 

[NayborBear]

Thanks for sharing !

Who's presence did you sense in the room , Jesus or the Father ? And tell me how you could discern this as I have not ever discerned a difference that I could say that it was the Father's or the Son's presence I was in .

If you can garner up the nerve during that "time?"
You ask Him!
Abeit? It's pretty tough in His presence due to the fact that there is such POWER of Love that (for me anyways) T'was ALL I could do in keeping my bowels in check! Yeah? It's THAT strong! And it reminded me of reading in the Bible of others who were like dead men just from their being in the same area where God's presence was addressing someone else. Ya git all giddy inside! Like ya wanna laugh, ya wanna cry, ya wanna keep yourself from soiling yourself. (true story folks)
In time you'll get used to His presence being in you as you start growing from the inside out and bottom to the top.
And start "discerning" the different "aspect manifestations" of Not only God's Spirit, but also the "GOVERNMENTAL STRUCTURE" of the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Light! Of which Yeshua the Messiah bares on His shoulder!

I apologize for answering as the question you asked was not directed to me. (truthfully, I only come here every now and again)
But, t'was something I couldn't stop myself from responding to.

 

[NayborBear]

Well, it was easy for me to sense the overwhelming presence of one Spirit, the Holy Spirit of the Father. Being there, you just know it. He was also, through his same one Spirit, that later I pondered about, as you are inquiring here, came to realize his Spirit was the same one who drafted me, (pun intended for, chosen and being followed/shadowed.....) led me to my conversion for him, and his desire. I do believe he drew me to him over time and for his Son, for the Kingdom.

I noticed his presence that day of conversion. I also knew it was his Spirit projecting itself/himself over me at that time and not his Son that I can remember.

Very soon afterwards however, as I learned more of God and his word, and began to take my first steps in faith for my new life, only then did I frequently acknowledge the presence of God's Son's spirit within as well, and thus his/my father's presence in the process. This spirit(s) process of communications and their state and presence, at conversion or in everyday life, is a real bear to pin down for any human being.

There was no other way to understand it. I was now infected with Christ and his Father. It became real to me. It was a progressive growth in my heart and mind, given to me by the one and only Father.

Jesus' spirit or seed was planted within me by the Father, that grew over time, if you will. By acknowledging the presence of Jesus or say Yeshua, more and more, I grew more a part of him, his spirit. And all the while I sensed the presence of the Father (his own Spirit) there directing traffic as usual, always through his Son's spirit within me.

Today, the Father and the spirit of Christ speak to me more than in my earlier years. And I cannot be sure if the Father alone or Jesus or one of his messengers (angels or other chosen people) speak to me for God, our Father. They seem to be very much together, performing as one cohesive collection of spirits for the purpose of God,

And the thing is, that the Spirit of truth, yes, given even today, and there are many more spirits given as gifts or even curses, on the disciplined, and of the Son, are all derived from the Spirit of God, the Father.

I generally pray to the Father as my focus, as my personal father, although I collectively bring Jesus, my brother and friend into the picture, as one of the family. I believe God the Father still dominates and will always dominate my affairs with his Son in the Kingdom realm today and tomorrow. Amen.

I also believe that God's angels, although given to his Son today for a purpose(s) he desires today, were present at my conversion and definitely today in my personal affairs. When I was younger, and I cannot disprove it, or discard that moment, I saw an angel of God at my sick bedside, and I soon recovered from my ailment.

This query of your is definitely a deeper dive and probe into the realm of the spirits involved with God, his nature, and how he works in my life and others. And I have only scratched the surface of my experiences on this subject.

Thanks again for your post.

This "conversion" you speak of is due in large part to spiritual sacrifices done by you to a/the point when the "harvesting Angels" said unto the Lord of the Harvest: "The tares are so entwined, we may lose him by going further!" Whereupon the Lord of the Harvest said: "Bring him to Me! Root and ALL!" (saying to himself and all within earshot) "Some things I just hafta do Myself!" (actually heard Him say that).
If you have wondered the where this is leading?
Well? A couple things actually.
If you think this has something to do with the "fullness of the gentiles?" You'd be thinking right!
If you think this has "something" to do concerning the "Order of Mechizedek?" You'd be right again!
If you think this has "something" to do with the end of this earth and heaven age? True!
If your thinking along the lines of the tribe of Levi where God said to 'em: "I will be their inheritance!" You're battin' a thousand!
For what does being a "Co-heir with Christ" mean?
God sent His only begotten son to be a sacrifice for whosoever will believe!
God's saying now? "Homey ain't playin' that shit NO more!" (my interpretation)

 

[shepherdsword]

As late as AD 380 there were many among the Nicene Christians who didn’t believe in the Trinity. This is documented by Philip Schaff in his eight-volume work, History of the Christian Church.

HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*

Does the average trinitarian know this? No.

Shouldn’t the average trinitarian know this? I think they should. I’ve been publicly calling for it to be taught in all churches (and privately in homes) for decades.

The overwhelming majority of Nicene Christians did believe in the Trinity and the deity of Christ. It was one of the main reasons Arianism was declared heretical.

 

[Matthias]

The overwhelming majority of Nicene Christians did believe in the Trinity and the deity of Christ. It was one of the main reasons Arianism was declared heretical.

I hadn’t planned to quote Schaff in this thread but since you’ve expressed an interest -

”Even among the adherents of Nicene orthodoxy an uncertainty still for a time prevailed respecting the doctrine of the third person of the Holy Trinity. Some held the Spirit to be an impersonal power or attribute of God; others, at the farthest, would not go beyond the expressions of the Scriptures. Gregory of Nazianzen, who, for his own part believed and taught the consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son, so late as 380 made the remarkable concession: ‘Of the wise among us, some consider the Holy Ghost an influence, others a creature, others God himself, and again others know not which way to decide, from reverence, as they say, for the Holy Scripture, which declares nothing exact in the case. For this reason they waver between worshipping and not worshipping the Holy Ghost, and strike a middle course, which is in fact, a bad one.’”

(”The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit”)

This is why the Nicene Creed was revised in AD 381 at the Council of Constantinople.

 

[Matthias]

The Nicene Creed doesn’t tell us “what we Jews worship”. One could, however, look at the creed and, remembering what Gregory of Nyssa said concerning the concept destroying the heresy of Jewish monotheism, reverse engineer it to get “what we Jews do not worship”.

 

[JustMe]

If you can garner up the nerve during that "time?"
You ask Him!
Abeit? It's pretty tough in His presence due to the fact that there is such POWER of Love that (for me anyways) T'was ALL I could do in keeping my bowels in check! Yeah? It's THAT strong! And it reminded me of reading in the Bible of others who were like dead men just from their being in the same area where God's presence was addressing someone else. Ya git all giddy inside! Like ya wanna laugh, ya wanna cry, ya wanna keep yourself from soiling yourself. (true story folks)
In time you'll get used to His presence being in you as you start growing from the inside out and bottom to the top.
And start "discerning" the different "aspect manifestations" of Not only God's Spirit, but also the "GOVERNMENTAL STRUCTURE" of the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Light! Of which Yeshua the Messiah bares on His shoulder!

I apologize for answering as the question you asked was not directed to me. (truthfully, I only come here every now and again)
But, t'was something I couldn't stop myself from responding to.

Yes, the Son and his government as ruler of the Kingdom today. I, as you I suspect are very mindful of his and its presence. And yet there are many who cannot register this in their lives today.

Thanks for your feedback, it is greatly appreciated. Blessings to you NB!

 

[JustMe]

This "conversion" you speak of is due in large part to spiritual sacrifices done by you to a/the point when the "harvesting Angels" said unto the Lord of the Harvest: "The tares are so entwined, we may lose him by going further!" Whereupon the Lord of the Harvest said: "Bring him to Me! Root and ALL!" (saying to himself and all within earshot) "Some things I just hafta do Myself!" (actually heard Him say that).
If you have wondered the where this is leading?
Well? A couple things actually.
If you think this has something to do with the "fullness of the gentiles?" You'd be thinking right!
If you think this has "something" to do concerning the "Order of Mechizedek?" You'd be right again!
If you think this has "something" to do with the end of this earth and heaven age? True!
If your thinking along the lines of the tribe of Levi where God said to 'em: "I will be their inheritance!" You're battin' a thousand!
For what does being a "Co-heir with Christ" mean?
God sent His only begotten son to be a sacrifice for whosoever will believe!
God's saying now? "Homey ain't playin' that shit NO more!" (my interpretation)

Another edifying response from you. Thanks again

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

“Jesus wasn’t, and isn’t, Yahweh.“ - Ben Witherington

Dr. Witherington, a trinitarian, makes this concession due to the constraints of history.

He’s right.

Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.

Every passage of scripture you quoted can be understood through the lens of Jewish monotheism.

If you want to be a trinitarian then be a trinitarian.

I want to be, and I am, theologically like Jesus.

Well, I won't bother getting into a long, drawn out, futule argument; so we'll just disagree. But when you see Him, will you bow a knee and worship Him?

 

[Matthias]

Well, I won't bother getting into a long, drawn out, futule argument; so we'll just disagree.

There’s nothing to argue about. Jesus is a Jewish monotheist. Scripture aligns with him, not against him.

But when you see Him, will you bow a knee and worship Him?

Of course I will. Everyone will.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

There’s nothing to argue about. Jesus is a Jewish monotheist.

Is the Father a monotheist? He identifies Jesus as God.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. Heb. 1:8

It's forgivable though since Jesus did not consider equality with God something that you could grasp!
"who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped". Phil. 2:6.And man apparently still wrestles with it.

 

[Matthias]

Is the Father a monotheist? He identifies Jesus as God.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. Heb. 1:8

It's forgivable though since Jesus did not consider equality with God something that you could grasp!
"who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped". Phil. 2:6.And man apparently still wrestles with it.

No, the Father himself isn’t a monotheist. The Son himself is a Jewish monotheist.

God himself calling Jesus theos - which he does - doesn’t literally make Jesus God himself. Jesus is functionally God, not literally God, in the theology of Jewish monotheism.

Dr. Witherington (and other trinitarian scholars) know from the constraints of history that Jesus wasn’t and isn’t Yahweh. If you think there is something you can say that can lead me to abandon the constraints of history, there isn’t.

Dr. Witherington (and the other trinitarian scholars I alluded to) believes Yahweh, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three persons of the Triune God. That’s between you and him. I’m a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.

My God is Yahweh alone. Jesus’ God is Yahweh alone.

I don’t think you’ll assert that Jesus’ God is the Triune God, but maybe you will surprise me.

 

[Matthias]

Jesus himself is a Jewish monotheist. That is a constraint of history. Trinitarian scholarship acknowledges it. If someone wants to deny that Jesus is a Jewish monotheist, they will. I can’t stop them from doing it, but they won’t ever be able to persuade me that he isn’t.

Jesus himself doesn’t leave us in the dark about who his God is. He tells us unambiguously that his God is only one person, the Father. That’s the very definition of a Jewish monotheist.

I pointed out earlier - using the New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (a trinitarian source) - that Jesus made the unitarian creed of Judaism his own creed.

I’m settled on that being bedrock and cannot be moved.

 

[Matthias]

Example.

“[Jesus] was a first-century Jewish monotheist.”

(N.T. Wright, Jesus And The Victory of God, p. 652)

Wright is a trinitarian (Anglican). He affirms the Nicene creed. There is only one reason that he makes this concession about Jesus -> the constraints of history.

 

[NayborBear]

No, the Father himself isn’t a monotheist. The Son himself is a Jewish monotheist.

My belief is you protesteth just a little too much about Jesus being a "Jewish monotheist." (that's just me!)
Jesus? Somewhat akin to Jeremiah in the "Here I am....Send Me?" Didn't volunteer like Jeremiah, and others. But was chosen BY "Yaw'-Uh-'Vay" (phonetical pronunciation) Elohim (or Yaw) Long BEFORE the "Abrahamic covenant" where after He was known as The God of the Hebrews (later called Jews) in Covenant Relationship.

Jesus was, and is STILL a "Priest after the Order of Melchizedek!" Meaning a Priest of the Most High! FOREVER!
As is Enoch, Elijah, Elisha, David, and many others!

But? I reckon I understand your efforts breaking down (or trying to)/fill the voids which the adversary has plagued mankind into the "traditions of man" that infiltrated the Jews (as so stated by "Ye-'Shu-'Uh" (rolls off the tongue like Joshua), as well as Christianity.

So, I reckon one can then understand the why the Disciples in Jerusalem said this concerning the gentiles:
Acts 15:29
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

And Jesus is not the Father. And is so mentioned many times in the Disciples and Apostles letters in the New Testament, yet like so many other teachings? Is like the sky (over their heads). And so is treated like a rope (skip it). Favoring "quantity over quality" as can be seen in denomonationalism these days.

Yet? I APPLAUD your efforts! (though methinks your beating your head against a rock)
Because they see the sheep gate into the sheeps' pen as the end of their journey!
And not the only correct way in continuing their spiritual pilgrimage.
......and in a "time" to come?...........
Isaiah 28:
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.

21 For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

YES?
The POWER of His Love is THAT STRONG!

Amen and AMEN

 

[shepherdsword]

I hadn’t planned to quote Schaff in this thread but since you’ve expressed an interest -

”Even among the adherents of Nicene orthodoxy an uncertainty still for a time prevailed respecting the doctrine of the third person of the Holy Trinity. Some held the Spirit to be an impersonal power or attribute of God; others, at the farthest, would not go beyond the expressions of the Scriptures. Gregory of Nazianzen, who, for his own part believed and taught the consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son, so late as 380 made the remarkable concession: ‘Of the wise among us, some consider the Holy Ghost an influence, others a creature, others God himself, and again others know not which way to decide, from reverence, as they say, for the Holy Scripture, which declares nothing exact in the case. For this reason they waver between worshipping and not worshipping the Holy Ghost, and strike a middle course, which is in fact, a bad one.’”

(”The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit”)

This is why the Nicene Creed was revised in AD 381 at the Council of Constantinople.

Once again...not only did most adhere to the divinity of Christ,most also believed in the divinity of the Holy Spirit. (Who was blasphemed by the Jews)

 

[Matthias]

Once again...not only did most adhere to the divinity of Christ,most also believed in the divinity of the Holy Spirit. (Who was blasphemed by the Jews)

From AD 381 on, 100%. Between 325 and 381 the percentage is unknown. The best information we have preserved is the testimony that “many” did not.