Please site one example of each from your statement: one falsehood, one inconsistency, and one contradiction. I am curious from your perspective what each of those will manifest as.
Your Opinion On Atheists
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aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I will never understand why some Christian have such contempt towards atheists and agnostics - as if they have personally offended us with their beliefs! We were all unbelievers before we were Christians - can't you just be thankful that you have been freed from your unbelief instead of spreading your righteous indignation?
It is also a bit mystifying to me that some Christians encourage this petty behavior in fellow Christians - it is not acceptable in polite society to take another's lack of employment or education, personally and publicaly - why is it ok to take their lack of religious conviction personally?
It is also a bit mystifying to me that some Christians encourage this petty behavior in fellow Christians - it is not acceptable in polite society to take another's lack of employment or education, personally and publicaly - why is it ok to take their lack of religious conviction personally?
Selene
New Member
When Christ said "Do not judge" He meant exactly that. It is not our place to judge anyone to Hell. That is God's place to do that. And in scripture where it says "Not everyone who says 'Lord Lord' will enter the Kingdom of God" Christ was referring to His own followers. Christ told us to love our neighbors. He did not say to love only Christians. We are no better than the atheists or pagans. We're also sinners. As a sinner, I would never say that I deserve to be in Heaven just because I'm a Christian. If I die and go to Heaven, it would not be because I'm a Christian. It would be because of God's mercy on me. And the Holy Bible did say that God can have mercy on whomever He wants. We should remember that Christ even forgave the pagan soldiers who nailed Him to the cross.Justin Mangonel said:
Hey BigAndyy 
Just one example of each is
Inconsistency: You must Love God - Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27
You must Fear God - Luke 12:5, Psalms 33:8, Deuteronomy 6:13
There is no fear in Love - John 4:18
Contradiction: the issue of Righteousness
Genesis 7:1 - Noah is Righteous
Job 2:3 - Job is Righteous
James 5:16 - Righteous men have effective prayers
John 3:7 - Christians become righteous through their deeds in the name of the Lord
Romans 3:10 - No one is Righteous
Falsehood: A cure for Leprosy
Leviticus 14:49-53
Just one example of each is
Inconsistency: You must Love God - Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27
You must Fear God - Luke 12:5, Psalms 33:8, Deuteronomy 6:13
There is no fear in Love - John 4:18
Contradiction: the issue of Righteousness
Genesis 7:1 - Noah is Righteous
Job 2:3 - Job is Righteous
James 5:16 - Righteous men have effective prayers
John 3:7 - Christians become righteous through their deeds in the name of the Lord
Romans 3:10 - No one is Righteous
Falsehood: A cure for Leprosy
Leviticus 14:49-53
Selene
New Member
None of those are contradictions. They can only make sense when one looks at the Bible in its entirety rather than one piece at a time. For example, your first one regarding love and fear......For Catholics, the fear of the Lord is one of the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit. It means "a desire not to offend God." The fear of the Lord is like the respect we have for our parents. We do not wish to offend them, but we also do not live in fear of them, in the sense of being frightened. It is not a fear of punishment, but a desire not to offend God that parallels our desire not to offend our parents. This is how Catholics interpret that. I don't know how my other Christian brothers would interpret it. Catholics and Christians do not have the same interpretation of scripture, which is the reason why they have 30,000 different Christian sects. Unlike my Christian brothers, we do not follow sola scriptura (scripture alone).InquisitiveAgnostic said:Hey BigAndyy
Just one example of each is
Inconsistency: You must Love God - Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27
You must Fear God - Luke 12:5, Psalms 33:8, Deuteronomy 6:13
There is no fear in Love - John 4:18
Contradiction: the issue of Righteousness
Genesis 7:1 - Noah is Righteous
Job 2:3 - Job is Righteous
James 5:16 - Righteous men have effective prayers
John 3:7 - Christians become righteous through their deeds in the name of the Lord
Romans 3:10 - No one is Righteous
Falsehood: A cure for Leprosy
Leviticus 14:49-53
Many people misunderstand the fear of the Lord. Recalling the verse that "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom," they think that the fear of the Lord is something that is good to have when you first start out as a Christian, but that you should grow beyond it. That is not the case; rather, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom because it is one of the foundations of our religious life, just as the desire to do what our parents wish us to do should remain with us our entire lives.
As for men who are righteous, Noah, Abraham, and Job were righteous in God's eyes according to their faith. Infants who died were also righteous and had no personal sins; yet, all of them had original sin.....a concept that some of my Christians brothers do not believe in. We believe we were born with Original Sin. Even those who were righteous were also born with Original Sin and did not enter Heaven until Christ came. So, what the Bible says about men being righteous is true and about none being righteous is also true. As I said, one needs to look at the entire context of the Bible and Christian belief in order to comprehend scripture. And so on and so on.
By the way, there are also inconsistencies in Genesis 1 and 2 on the creation of man as well as the number of animals brought into the Ark. For Catholics, the inconsistent number of animals brought into the ark is irrelevant. God revealed Himself to the Jewish people in their history so His message is hidden in their history....and it is a message of salvation. The Bible is not a science book and should never be read as a science book as some of my Christian brothers has done. The Bible tells the history of man's salvation.
Selene, well said.
I have no problem with people interpreting a bible as the basis of their moral being. But as you said, it is clearly open for quite a bit of interpretation
I have no problem with people interpreting a bible as the basis of their moral being. But as you said, it is clearly open for quite a bit of interpretation
One question before I endeavor to respond to the answers you thoughtfully provided; will you simply attribute any refutation of your answers to a "different interpretation" of scripture?
There are indeed cogent, internally consistent refutations to your examples. Some may indeed become slightly technical in nature due to the limitations of expressing thoughts and ideas from a donor language across to a grammatically different receptor language. But if the end result of our scholarship is a cursory dismissal of the evidence given, I must take care in the amount of information provided.
After all, I'm not going to drop a truckload of feed if only one cow comes to the trough.
There are indeed cogent, internally consistent refutations to your examples. Some may indeed become slightly technical in nature due to the limitations of expressing thoughts and ideas from a donor language across to a grammatically different receptor language. But if the end result of our scholarship is a cursory dismissal of the evidence given, I must take care in the amount of information provided.
After all, I'm not going to drop a truckload of feed if only one cow comes to the trough.
Dear S,
So are you saying that if someone professes to be a atheist or agnostic and does not accept Christ's sacrifice as a propitiation for their sins that we are not right to say that this person faces eternal torment? Personally, according to how I read the scriptures, I judge all those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior as in danger of the hell fire. Yes, some who count themselves Christians we be surprised to learn that they are not recognized by Jesus because they did not do the will of His Father but is that really what we are talking about here?
Do you think that being reasonable and non-confrontational with an atheist or agnostic is the way to go about loving them into the kingdom? Perhaps, although I have never seen that work personally. Should we respect their intellectual honesty and agree with them that the Bible contains contradictions and thus they have some grounds to reject the holy writ? Absolutely not.
Do you say that because Christ said "forgive them for they know not what they do" that therefore God has now forgiven the whole world and everyone will go to heaven? I don't think so.
Perhaps you could say that the person who confesses to an atheist or an agnostic is theoretically a nice guy or gal but what I don't like is the spirit or sprits that speak through their mouths and blaspheme God. I furthermore do not think that compromise helps them either. The fact of the matter, from my perspective anyway, is that you are dealing with demonic spirits that have bound them and there is no amount of logic or reason that will convince the demon that dwells within them to convert to the light. While there are different approaches you can take to engage their will to resist these spirits I believe one effective way is to bring them face to face with the eternal consequences of their present thinking. Perhaps others may feel to love them and be patient with them but each of us has to be led by the Spirit in who to witness to these types of unbelievers.
I don't like lying spirits that pretend to be so reasonable and open minded when in fact they are crushing the soul of the person they are binding. I bristle at the suggestion that God cannot be known. I am furious with the assertion that God does not exist. People do not have the right to ignore or pretend God does not exist. This is not some philosophy we are spouting but an actual reality. I don't feel to soft pedal my Christianity to such people but rather I feel strongly to offend them all the way to heaven if needs be. What is needed is deliverance and only then can you hope to reason logic with them.
Have we become such lukewarm Christians that we are afraid to become confrontational with our faith for fear of being labeled extreme. Though I am not for being extreme for extremes sake I am also not for holding my tongue when someone tells me that God does not exist or that they can ignore Him because they are so intellectually honest. Some people, granted, are honestly confused or hurt and need to be handled gently and with great love and patience. Others need to have their feet held to the fire so that they can be woken up to the reality of their future. For the second class of person I would advance the notion that I would rather them be offended now than be dammed later. By not taking a firm stand with such people you could be accused of killing them with kindness.
So are you saying that if someone professes to be a atheist or agnostic and does not accept Christ's sacrifice as a propitiation for their sins that we are not right to say that this person faces eternal torment? Personally, according to how I read the scriptures, I judge all those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior as in danger of the hell fire. Yes, some who count themselves Christians we be surprised to learn that they are not recognized by Jesus because they did not do the will of His Father but is that really what we are talking about here?
Do you think that being reasonable and non-confrontational with an atheist or agnostic is the way to go about loving them into the kingdom? Perhaps, although I have never seen that work personally. Should we respect their intellectual honesty and agree with them that the Bible contains contradictions and thus they have some grounds to reject the holy writ? Absolutely not.
Do you say that because Christ said "forgive them for they know not what they do" that therefore God has now forgiven the whole world and everyone will go to heaven? I don't think so.
Perhaps you could say that the person who confesses to an atheist or an agnostic is theoretically a nice guy or gal but what I don't like is the spirit or sprits that speak through their mouths and blaspheme God. I furthermore do not think that compromise helps them either. The fact of the matter, from my perspective anyway, is that you are dealing with demonic spirits that have bound them and there is no amount of logic or reason that will convince the demon that dwells within them to convert to the light. While there are different approaches you can take to engage their will to resist these spirits I believe one effective way is to bring them face to face with the eternal consequences of their present thinking. Perhaps others may feel to love them and be patient with them but each of us has to be led by the Spirit in who to witness to these types of unbelievers.
I don't like lying spirits that pretend to be so reasonable and open minded when in fact they are crushing the soul of the person they are binding. I bristle at the suggestion that God cannot be known. I am furious with the assertion that God does not exist. People do not have the right to ignore or pretend God does not exist. This is not some philosophy we are spouting but an actual reality. I don't feel to soft pedal my Christianity to such people but rather I feel strongly to offend them all the way to heaven if needs be. What is needed is deliverance and only then can you hope to reason logic with them.
Have we become such lukewarm Christians that we are afraid to become confrontational with our faith for fear of being labeled extreme. Though I am not for being extreme for extremes sake I am also not for holding my tongue when someone tells me that God does not exist or that they can ignore Him because they are so intellectually honest. Some people, granted, are honestly confused or hurt and need to be handled gently and with great love and patience. Others need to have their feet held to the fire so that they can be woken up to the reality of their future. For the second class of person I would advance the notion that I would rather them be offended now than be dammed later. By not taking a firm stand with such people you could be accused of killing them with kindness.
Selene
New Member
Brother Justin,Justin Mangonel said:
When I go out to evangelize door to door after Lent, I spread the Gospels (Good News) just as the Apostles did. The Good News is that God loved us so much that He came down in the form of man to conquer death and rescue us. He died for our sins and opened the gates of Heaven for us. He brought us redemption so that we now have access to Heaven. I spread God's love and mercy rather than preach about Hell fire to non-Christians. Why? Because it was never our place to judge who goes to Hell. That role belongs to God alone, and He does not need my help in making those decisions for Him. After spreading this Good News, I ask them if they would like me to pray for someone in their family or if they would like to hear a song? If they choose a song, our songs are usually songs of thanksgiving and praising God.
Several years ago, my priest (who can speak 7 different languages) invited a group of Japanese performers to perform a cultural dance. These Japanese believed in Shintoism - a pagan religion. After Mass, the Japanese performers held their performance in our Church social hall. After their performance, we had a huge banquet prepared for them. Of course, we all knew that they were not Christians, but that did not bother us. But toward the end of their stay, two of those Japanese performers went to my priest and wanted to become Catholics. What converted them? It was that love they saw in our parish community. They saw how much laughter and love we had for one another, and they wanted to be part of our community. They saw that we did not negatively judge them despite that they were non-Christians. They saw our kindness toward them.
In other words, they saw the light of the Holy Spirit inside us, and that was what converted them. One can convert more using love rather than self-righteousness. As a matter of fact, Catholicism has actually grown in the continents of Asia and Africa....continents that are predominantly pagan.
Do we ever preach hell fire? Of course we do, but we preach it to ourselves and to Catholic converts in order to correct ourselves and our brothers and sisters in Christ. The one time that I ever heard the late Pope John Paul II preach "Hell Fire" was to the Mafia in Sicily who gunned down a Catholic priest for opposing the Mafia. And the Mafia in Sicily are mainly Catholics. It was the same with St. Paul.....when he wrote a very harsh letter to the Christian converts in the Church of Corinth who were practicing sexual immorality. St. Paul told the Christians in Corinth that their immorality will not get them into God's kingdom. The Holy Bible says not to judge anyone, but we can correct the behavior of our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Dear S,
I do respect your position and what you are saying. I do not believe that we should be confrontational in every situation. However, sometimes I think it is good to confront those who deny the existence of God or seek to ignore Him with the reality of the eternal consequences of their choices. The fact of the matter is that loving and accepting those who are bound by deception does not always work. It is not like you personally have a hundred percent success rate with those you witness to in this way. It is just one tool and one way to go about it. I must admit that I do not often dangle people over the pit of hell however sometimes I feel led by the Holy Spirit to do so. I remember one person into scientology was giving me a intellectual attitude about L. Ron . Hubbard and I felt to tell him very directly that he was going to make Hell his eternal home if He did not change his ways. It was uncomfortable for him and I could see the fear on His face. However, he gave his heart to the Lord, burnt all the material from scientology and started going to church. About a month later he became spirit filled and spoke in other tongues. Several months later He died of a massive heart attack. In this particular case I don't think soft peddling Christianity would have worked because He did not have much time left. So, while I agree that love is good witnessing tool it is not the only way to go about things.
Atheists are hard to crack and so are agnostics. I think that only God can lead us in the correct way to approach these types of individuals. Sometimes we may be led to love them patiently and try to reason with them. However, I believe that what we are really dealing with are people that are bound by demons of hurt and rejection that masquerade and reason and logic. Demons understand that they are reserved for the lake of fire and thus have nothing to lose by dragging these people down with them. What is necessary is to speak directly to their souls and spirits the white hot truth of God so that their minds might be freed just long enough for them to have a chance to see things God's way. These are not pagans that have never met God but rather these are men and women who have rejected God and back up their choices up with philosophies born of hell.
I was witnessing to one young person at a university and his major was comparative religions. I told him about Jesus Christ and the salvation that He provide and he looked at me with the most pained look I have ever seen on a man and said, "I wish I could believe."
In conclusion, I must disagree with your assessment that we cannot judge the lost as being lost. It is quite plain in scripture that if you show up at the wedding feast without the proper attire you will be dealt with appropriately.
I do respect your position and what you are saying. I do not believe that we should be confrontational in every situation. However, sometimes I think it is good to confront those who deny the existence of God or seek to ignore Him with the reality of the eternal consequences of their choices. The fact of the matter is that loving and accepting those who are bound by deception does not always work. It is not like you personally have a hundred percent success rate with those you witness to in this way. It is just one tool and one way to go about it. I must admit that I do not often dangle people over the pit of hell however sometimes I feel led by the Holy Spirit to do so. I remember one person into scientology was giving me a intellectual attitude about L. Ron . Hubbard and I felt to tell him very directly that he was going to make Hell his eternal home if He did not change his ways. It was uncomfortable for him and I could see the fear on His face. However, he gave his heart to the Lord, burnt all the material from scientology and started going to church. About a month later he became spirit filled and spoke in other tongues. Several months later He died of a massive heart attack. In this particular case I don't think soft peddling Christianity would have worked because He did not have much time left. So, while I agree that love is good witnessing tool it is not the only way to go about things.
Atheists are hard to crack and so are agnostics. I think that only God can lead us in the correct way to approach these types of individuals. Sometimes we may be led to love them patiently and try to reason with them. However, I believe that what we are really dealing with are people that are bound by demons of hurt and rejection that masquerade and reason and logic. Demons understand that they are reserved for the lake of fire and thus have nothing to lose by dragging these people down with them. What is necessary is to speak directly to their souls and spirits the white hot truth of God so that their minds might be freed just long enough for them to have a chance to see things God's way. These are not pagans that have never met God but rather these are men and women who have rejected God and back up their choices up with philosophies born of hell.
I was witnessing to one young person at a university and his major was comparative religions. I told him about Jesus Christ and the salvation that He provide and he looked at me with the most pained look I have ever seen on a man and said, "I wish I could believe."
In conclusion, I must disagree with your assessment that we cannot judge the lost as being lost. It is quite plain in scripture that if you show up at the wedding feast without the proper attire you will be dealt with appropriately.
Justin, if Hell is my destiny and God wants to torture me forever for not believing in him (even though he knew, eons before, that I would grow up to be an Athiest) while convicted murderers and rapists get a free pass if they repent and believe. Than that is not a loving God.
Also...what concern of it is yours?
Also...what concern of it is yours?
Dear IA,
So you are better than convicted murderers and rapists? The point with God is that all have sinned and deserve eternal death. However, in His mercy He has provided a way out for all...not just you. If you or anyone else fails to avail themselves of this salvation then whose fault is it if you spend eternity in the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth?
I have chosen to make it my concern because you are here being an intuitive agnostic aka atheist. I assume you wanted to know the truth of the matter...if not what are you doing?
The truth is that you are stubbornly refusing to see what most everyone else on the forum agrees is the greatest gift that they have ever received in their lives. You are ignoring the love that God showed you by providing a way to escape eternal damnation through His Son's sacrifice. You are taking the most precious gift that anyone could possibly give you and pretending like it doesn't even exist. Do you think that the Father of Jesus is going to be understanding towards your choices here on Earth when you stand before Him and He examines your life? There will be no bravado then but only your life laid bare before the creator of the Heavens and Earth.
I don't care what you natural mind is thinking right now because I know your spirit hears what I am saying no matter how you try to pretend it doesn't . You are a creation of God and somewhere inside you that realization still exists. You fear death because you don't really know what will happen when you pass on. God has given you a way to escape the judgment that you will surely face but you dismiss it like some fairy tale.
God loved you enough to send His only begotten son to die in your place so that you could have life everlasting. Yet you count it as nothing. He hung on the cross not because he wanted to but because He knew it was the only way you and everyone else could be free...therefore, out of love, He took the punishment you deserved. He gave His life for you just on the chance you would hear the gospel and repent and be saved.
This is not about reason or knowledge or rational but it is about you humbling yourself before the God that created you. Your pride and arrogance before your maker is what is damming your soul more than anything else. God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. Until you humble yourself and simply believe God He will not give you the proof that you want because you would not believe it anyway. Salvation is by faith and no one can come to the Father except through believing in His Son. Once you simply say, "Father, I am a sinner, I believe that your Son died for me an rose the third day for my justification" and mean it you will be saved and the blindness that has prevented you from seeing God will be healed. Until that day you will never find the proof you say you want because God will not allow you to see it. You come to God on His terms or not at all.
You want to know what concern it is of mine? It is because the Holy Spirit that dwells within is concerned for you even though you despise Him. You wanted to know if God exists? God is trying to talk you through me right this minute. You asked if He is real? He is speaking to you and telling you this day that if you do not turn from the path you are on you will suffer the eternal torment that has been reserved for Satan and his fallen angels. I am not going to soft peddle this truth to you because the hardness in your heart makes you resist all the love and tender words that people have used to persuade you with over the years.
Stop this nonsense and seek God with your whole heart. Allow Him to come in and turn your life around. Today is the day of salvation for tomorrow is not certain.
So you are better than convicted murderers and rapists? The point with God is that all have sinned and deserve eternal death. However, in His mercy He has provided a way out for all...not just you. If you or anyone else fails to avail themselves of this salvation then whose fault is it if you spend eternity in the lake of fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth?
I have chosen to make it my concern because you are here being an intuitive agnostic aka atheist. I assume you wanted to know the truth of the matter...if not what are you doing?
The truth is that you are stubbornly refusing to see what most everyone else on the forum agrees is the greatest gift that they have ever received in their lives. You are ignoring the love that God showed you by providing a way to escape eternal damnation through His Son's sacrifice. You are taking the most precious gift that anyone could possibly give you and pretending like it doesn't even exist. Do you think that the Father of Jesus is going to be understanding towards your choices here on Earth when you stand before Him and He examines your life? There will be no bravado then but only your life laid bare before the creator of the Heavens and Earth.
I don't care what you natural mind is thinking right now because I know your spirit hears what I am saying no matter how you try to pretend it doesn't . You are a creation of God and somewhere inside you that realization still exists. You fear death because you don't really know what will happen when you pass on. God has given you a way to escape the judgment that you will surely face but you dismiss it like some fairy tale.
God loved you enough to send His only begotten son to die in your place so that you could have life everlasting. Yet you count it as nothing. He hung on the cross not because he wanted to but because He knew it was the only way you and everyone else could be free...therefore, out of love, He took the punishment you deserved. He gave His life for you just on the chance you would hear the gospel and repent and be saved.
This is not about reason or knowledge or rational but it is about you humbling yourself before the God that created you. Your pride and arrogance before your maker is what is damming your soul more than anything else. God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. Until you humble yourself and simply believe God He will not give you the proof that you want because you would not believe it anyway. Salvation is by faith and no one can come to the Father except through believing in His Son. Once you simply say, "Father, I am a sinner, I believe that your Son died for me an rose the third day for my justification" and mean it you will be saved and the blindness that has prevented you from seeing God will be healed. Until that day you will never find the proof you say you want because God will not allow you to see it. You come to God on His terms or not at all.
You want to know what concern it is of mine? It is because the Holy Spirit that dwells within is concerned for you even though you despise Him. You wanted to know if God exists? God is trying to talk you through me right this minute. You asked if He is real? He is speaking to you and telling you this day that if you do not turn from the path you are on you will suffer the eternal torment that has been reserved for Satan and his fallen angels. I am not going to soft peddle this truth to you because the hardness in your heart makes you resist all the love and tender words that people have used to persuade you with over the years.
Stop this nonsense and seek God with your whole heart. Allow Him to come in and turn your life around. Today is the day of salvation for tomorrow is not certain.
Hey IA, thanks for your patience. Quick question, is the scripture reference correct for your first set? (John 4:18)
And the last, Cleanse and Cure are not synonyms when dealing with inanimate objects like a house or household. The cleansing was for atonement purposes, i.e. spiritual, rather than physiological purposes.
I was surprised you did not go, on this one, straight for Jacob and the Spotted Sheep account in Genesis. But I guess you did the research and saw it was easily handled. Good on ya, mate!
And the last, Cleanse and Cure are not synonyms when dealing with inanimate objects like a house or household. The cleansing was for atonement purposes, i.e. spiritual, rather than physiological purposes.
I was surprised you did not go, on this one, straight for Jacob and the Spotted Sheep account in Genesis. But I guess you did the research and saw it was easily handled. Good on ya, mate!
my opinion on atheists
i think they are great for more reasons then 1. first they show me where christianity is off. many young christians are becoming atheists why? why are christians being conformed to the atheist view points instead of the other way around? could there be a difference between teaching and preaching the word? could it be that we are doing a terrible job bringing up our children in God? could it be that we are poor examples of christians and the young people see this and think us hypocrites and so not wanting to do the same thing they quit believing in Christ? why is it that christians who believe in the trinity cannot even come together on what they believe? is this disunity among the christians another reason why other religions are not coming to Jesus? could it be because we have very little supernatural happening within our lives? could it be that christianity in no way distinguishes itself better then another religion unless there are confirmations of signs, miracles, and wonders following?
second there is no such thing as a true atheist. a true atheist believes whatever is best for himself he will follow. they have no morals or anything because anything including murder is justified as long as it is in their best interests.
third atheists are people who are confused about what they believe. when you question their beliefs and they do not have an answer then you will see them attack us personally or try and defend their beliefs with weak arguments(this applies to christians too who are immature in their relationship with God).
i could go on but i need to go.
God bless
i think they are great for more reasons then 1. first they show me where christianity is off. many young christians are becoming atheists why? why are christians being conformed to the atheist view points instead of the other way around? could there be a difference between teaching and preaching the word? could it be that we are doing a terrible job bringing up our children in God? could it be that we are poor examples of christians and the young people see this and think us hypocrites and so not wanting to do the same thing they quit believing in Christ? why is it that christians who believe in the trinity cannot even come together on what they believe? is this disunity among the christians another reason why other religions are not coming to Jesus? could it be because we have very little supernatural happening within our lives? could it be that christianity in no way distinguishes itself better then another religion unless there are confirmations of signs, miracles, and wonders following?
second there is no such thing as a true atheist. a true atheist believes whatever is best for himself he will follow. they have no morals or anything because anything including murder is justified as long as it is in their best interests.
third atheists are people who are confused about what they believe. when you question their beliefs and they do not have an answer then you will see them attack us personally or try and defend their beliefs with weak arguments(this applies to christians too who are immature in their relationship with God).
i could go on but i need to go.
God bless
Andy - it was 1 John 4:18 (im no biblical scholar lol)
but regardless of cleanse or cure, leprosy is a bacterial infection caused by Mycobacterium leprae...so the ritual is still false.
As for the spotted sheep bit, I've never heard of it
--Justin
We should probably start another thread altogether lol, our little back and forth has added more pages to this topic than what it originally had.
but regardless of cleanse or cure, leprosy is a bacterial infection caused by Mycobacterium leprae...so the ritual is still false.
As for the spotted sheep bit, I've never heard of it
--Justin
We should probably start another thread altogether lol, our little back and forth has added more pages to this topic than what it originally had.
Leprosy is clinically defined by it's genus and species in the bacterium world, but in OT times it was a kind of garbage can term for any skin lesion or rupture. Much like Autism today is a garbage can term. "Autism" encompasses up to 17 different diagnostically independent DRGs (diagnosis-related groups). I know, my son is Autistic but to stand next to him one is hard pressed to see it (he is PDD).
Remember, the Bible was inspired by God, not dictated, so the foibles, eccentricities, and even old wives tales of mere mortal men are left presented, not to impune the nature or character of God, but to allow the culture in which these people lived to flow through so the Bible would not be read like a set of Stereo Instructions but as the historical narrative it was meant to be in these places.
Remember, the Bible was inspired by God, not dictated, so the foibles, eccentricities, and even old wives tales of mere mortal men are left presented, not to impune the nature or character of God, but to allow the culture in which these people lived to flow through so the Bible would not be read like a set of Stereo Instructions but as the historical narrative it was meant to be in these places.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Love doesn't always work? Strange comment - all we are called to do is love. The Holy Spirit converts the heart that Jesus saves - not us.Justin Mangonel said:
Great outline on Atheism by Jim Fowler.
Defining "atheism"
A. Bible begins with assertion of God. Gen. 1:1 - "In the beginning God..." Does not attempt to prove God's
existence.
B. Atheism derived from two Greek words: a = no; theos = God.
C. Atheism is usually defined as the dogmatic denial of God, the epistemo- logical assertion that "there is no
God." Antitheism.
Francis Bacon (1625) - "Atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man."
D. The atheism must have a concept of God which he rejects. Is it valid?
E. Ps. 14:1; 53:1 - "The fool has said in his heart, 'there is no god.'."
F. Atheism is to be distinguished from the various forms of theism.
1. Polytheism - many gods
2. Pantheism - all is god
3. Henotheism - god in each category or community
4. Monotheism - one God.
G. The early Christians were charged with "atheism." Why? Because they did not believe in or worship the
Roman and Greek gods.
II. Atheism is usually a form of idolatry.
A. Man is a spiritual creature. Seeks something on which to focus in order to have meaning, purpose and
identity. Samuel Butler (1912) - "the fight between the theist and the atheist is as to whether God shall be
called God or shall have some other name."
B. If man denies God, he inevitably constructs physical or mental "gods."
1. Jer. 2:28 - "gods which you made for yourself"
2. Gal. 4:8 - "those which by nature are not gods"
C. The false gods of atheism.
1. Humanism - Man is the measure of things, the highest being; his own god. Gen. 3:5 - "you shall be like
God." Man is god.
2. Secularism - from Latin saeculum = world. This world is all there is. Self-limiting. The world is god.
3. Naturalism - The natural order is the only order. Nature is god.
4. Scientism - Physical science will discover and give us all the answers we need. Science is god.
5. Positivism - "seeing is believing;" empiricism. Sensory perception is god.
6. Materialism - acquisition of material goods is the ultimate goal. William James: "Truth is the cash value
of an idea." Money or things is god.
7. Intellectualism - By logic and rational thought, man can figure everything out. Epistemological belief-
system. Reason is god.
8. Existentialism - Everything is tested by human feelings. All is subjective. Emotions are god.
9. Relativism - There is no absolute. Everything is relative to your perspective. Personal viewpoint is god.
10. Pragmatism - Have to go with what "works." Must be practical. Expedience is god.
11. Socialism - The good of the whole is the highest good. Society is god.
12. Statism - Government will solve all the problems, and take care of man. Government is god.
13. Pluralism - It doesn't matter what you believe or do. Tolerate everything. Diversity is god.
14. Hedonism - Sensual pleasure is the highest good. If it feels good, it is good. "Eat, drink and be merry."
Pleasure is god.
D. Arguments used by atheists against belief in God.
1. Talking about God is meaningless because it is unverifiable.
2. God cannot be known by empirical sensory observation.
3. "You can't be sure about anything?" Are you sure?
4. God is a result of man's superstition or wishful thinking?
5. God's alleged attributes are contradictory.
6. God would not allow evil.
III. Atheism and agnosticism.
A. Atheists do not usually claim to be atheists. They might be called upon to prove their point.
B. Agnostic is derived from two Greek words: a = no; gnosis = knowledge.
C. The agnostic cops out and throws the monkey on the back of those who assert there is a God, saying
"You prove it."
D. Variations of agnosticism.
1. "I do not know if there is a God."
2. "Man cannot know if there is a God."
3. "I do not want to know if there is a God."
E. Agnosticism is equivalent to ignorance. Acts 17:23 - "unknown god" - agnoeto theo. (cf. Rom. 10:13)
IV. Differentiating between theism, deism and Christianity.
A. Theist - "I believe there is a god" (maybe even singular, personal, infinite)
B. Deist - "God is out there, removed from man." Wholly other.
C. Christian - "I have received Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord (God)."
V. Practical atheism.
A. Many assent to theism ("I believe in God.") or even Christian truth ("I believe in Jesus Christ."). They
believe it, assent to it, affirm it, confess it. It is a tenet of their belief-system. Religious epistemology.
B. These same people live as if God does not exist. They ignore God. God is irrelevant to their lives.
They do not communicate with God, seek the direction of God, allow Jesus Christ to be Lord of
their lives, recognize Jesus as their life, or seek to allow the expression of His character in all
situations (i.e. love, joy, peace, patience...). They are "practical atheists."
C. If God could and would die tonight, they would go right on in their theistic belief (or so-called
Christian belief), unaware of His demise.
D. It has been said, "You only really believe, what you act upon."
E. Edward and Jules de Goncourt (1868) - "If there is a God, atheism must strike Him as less of an insult
than religion."
F. Charles Colton (1825) - "The three great apostles of practical atheism are health, wealth and power."
Defining "atheism"
A. Bible begins with assertion of God. Gen. 1:1 - "In the beginning God..." Does not attempt to prove God's
existence.
B. Atheism derived from two Greek words: a = no; theos = God.
C. Atheism is usually defined as the dogmatic denial of God, the epistemo- logical assertion that "there is no
God." Antitheism.
Francis Bacon (1625) - "Atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man."
D. The atheism must have a concept of God which he rejects. Is it valid?
E. Ps. 14:1; 53:1 - "The fool has said in his heart, 'there is no god.'."
F. Atheism is to be distinguished from the various forms of theism.
1. Polytheism - many gods
2. Pantheism - all is god
3. Henotheism - god in each category or community
4. Monotheism - one God.
G. The early Christians were charged with "atheism." Why? Because they did not believe in or worship the
Roman and Greek gods.
II. Atheism is usually a form of idolatry.
A. Man is a spiritual creature. Seeks something on which to focus in order to have meaning, purpose and
identity. Samuel Butler (1912) - "the fight between the theist and the atheist is as to whether God shall be
called God or shall have some other name."
B. If man denies God, he inevitably constructs physical or mental "gods."
1. Jer. 2:28 - "gods which you made for yourself"
2. Gal. 4:8 - "those which by nature are not gods"
C. The false gods of atheism.
1. Humanism - Man is the measure of things, the highest being; his own god. Gen. 3:5 - "you shall be like
God." Man is god.
2. Secularism - from Latin saeculum = world. This world is all there is. Self-limiting. The world is god.
3. Naturalism - The natural order is the only order. Nature is god.
4. Scientism - Physical science will discover and give us all the answers we need. Science is god.
5. Positivism - "seeing is believing;" empiricism. Sensory perception is god.
6. Materialism - acquisition of material goods is the ultimate goal. William James: "Truth is the cash value
of an idea." Money or things is god.
7. Intellectualism - By logic and rational thought, man can figure everything out. Epistemological belief-
system. Reason is god.
8. Existentialism - Everything is tested by human feelings. All is subjective. Emotions are god.
9. Relativism - There is no absolute. Everything is relative to your perspective. Personal viewpoint is god.
10. Pragmatism - Have to go with what "works." Must be practical. Expedience is god.
11. Socialism - The good of the whole is the highest good. Society is god.
12. Statism - Government will solve all the problems, and take care of man. Government is god.
13. Pluralism - It doesn't matter what you believe or do. Tolerate everything. Diversity is god.
14. Hedonism - Sensual pleasure is the highest good. If it feels good, it is good. "Eat, drink and be merry."
Pleasure is god.
D. Arguments used by atheists against belief in God.
1. Talking about God is meaningless because it is unverifiable.
2. God cannot be known by empirical sensory observation.
3. "You can't be sure about anything?" Are you sure?
4. God is a result of man's superstition or wishful thinking?
5. God's alleged attributes are contradictory.
6. God would not allow evil.
III. Atheism and agnosticism.
A. Atheists do not usually claim to be atheists. They might be called upon to prove their point.
B. Agnostic is derived from two Greek words: a = no; gnosis = knowledge.
C. The agnostic cops out and throws the monkey on the back of those who assert there is a God, saying
"You prove it."
D. Variations of agnosticism.
1. "I do not know if there is a God."
2. "Man cannot know if there is a God."
3. "I do not want to know if there is a God."
E. Agnosticism is equivalent to ignorance. Acts 17:23 - "unknown god" - agnoeto theo. (cf. Rom. 10:13)
IV. Differentiating between theism, deism and Christianity.
A. Theist - "I believe there is a god" (maybe even singular, personal, infinite)
B. Deist - "God is out there, removed from man." Wholly other.
C. Christian - "I have received Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord (God)."
V. Practical atheism.
A. Many assent to theism ("I believe in God.") or even Christian truth ("I believe in Jesus Christ."). They
believe it, assent to it, affirm it, confess it. It is a tenet of their belief-system. Religious epistemology.
B. These same people live as if God does not exist. They ignore God. God is irrelevant to their lives.
They do not communicate with God, seek the direction of God, allow Jesus Christ to be Lord of
their lives, recognize Jesus as their life, or seek to allow the expression of His character in all
situations (i.e. love, joy, peace, patience...). They are "practical atheists."
C. If God could and would die tonight, they would go right on in their theistic belief (or so-called
Christian belief), unaware of His demise.
D. It has been said, "You only really believe, what you act upon."
E. Edward and Jules de Goncourt (1868) - "If there is a God, atheism must strike Him as less of an insult
than religion."
F. Charles Colton (1825) - "The three great apostles of practical atheism are health, wealth and power."
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