Your Soul IS Immortal, Until...

[1stCenturyLady]

He will be restored... Made new....

Is that commonly taught to all JW's, that Satan and all the demons will be saved? That's a new one for me. I've never heard a JW say that before.


@Aunty Jane do you agree?

 

[Randy Kluth]

NO.. It's not true... That's the whole point of God raising His Messiah/Christ Jesus from the dead... It's a new Beginning!

BORN AGAIN.....

Come on Nicodemus..... (Joh 3:4)

You (ie Soul) must be born again!!!! ... Resurrected !!

Born Again does not mean "Resurrected." It is a metaphorical term indicating we are being given a new start, via a new spirituality provided for, legally, by the work of Christ. It was, however, already there even before the cross in a state of expectation. The story of Nicodemus took place before Christ's resurrection!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You (ie Soul) must be born again!!!! ... Resurrected !!

Romans 6 does refer to the Resurrection of Christ, but also His crucifixion! Those two things of Christ's is what Jesus does to all who are baptized in the Holy Spirit. And ask yourself why? It is because Adam's sin that condemned his nature is what we inherited making our human nature a sin nature. That sin nature is what must die and be born again to be free of sin. Unfortunately, I do not see many denominations teaching this. Most Christian denominations say we will sin until this body dies and is resurrected. Is that what you meant also? I hope not, because those who keep sinning until they die and believe they have no choice but to sin until they die have believed a doctrine of demons. Demons know it will be too late. Revelation 22:11. Whatever state we die in we are stuck with. "11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Romans 6:
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Aunty Jane]

What happens to the immortal Satan and his immortal angels?

If their destiny is the lake of fire, as Jesus said, then they are destroyed like everything else that is thrown into that place. Anything living that can be destroyed is not immortal, which literally means “the power of an indestructible life”.

Rev 20:12-15...
“And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave (hades) gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and the Grave (hades) were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.”

The lake of fire is “the second death”, symbolizing a state of complete destruction for all that goes into it.....human or otherwise.
“Death and hades” are also destroyed in this place where the wicked are thrown....never to be seen again.
It is the place that Jesus said was “prepared for the devil and his angels”, but not until God’s purpose for the earth and all living things upon it is complete. Only then will they be destroyed in the place God has reserved for all who dare to challenge his Sovereignty.

Like Adam and his wife, there was no repentance ever demonstrated for their sin because they had no excuse to disobey their Sovereign. The death penalty applied with no mercy shown. There was no ‘sin’ in the world until these three stepped out from behind their Creator, to carry out their own will, not his. Disobedience incurs death...even for the angels who are not immortal.....because they can still have their lives terminated by Jehovah, as satan and his demons will.

Satan was a once perfect angel as Adam was a once perfect human....perfect creatures do not make mistakes...their choices are deliberate and calculated, which is why they are unforgivable.

Only after sin had “entered into the world, and death through sin”, (Rom 5:12) did God provide a means for the salvation of their children, who inherited this sinful condition through no fault on their part....i.e, the whole of the now sinful human race who descended from these original parents after they lost their place in God’s paradise.

Rev 12 tells us about these last days before Christ renders his judgment on the “sheep and the goats”.....

“And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”

This is the eviction of satan and his angels from heaven where they have been permitted free access until this “time of the end”, when they were thrown out, down to the earth to try their hardest to try and rob the faithful of their salvation. These demonic forces are particularly angry at this juncture because they know that time is running out for them. They are no longer subtle in their approach but full on in their corrupting of the human race as they did once before in Noah’s day. (Matt 24:37-39) This is why Jesus said “few” will be found on the road to life, whist the “many” will be travelling a very different path, (Matt 7:13-14)...to their destruction. Why? Because they did not have the kind of faith that God is looking for in his people.....the kind that is ‘Job-like’ in endurance of the many things satan uses to undermine our trust in God...death of loved ones....loss of financial security.....physical illnesses.....false comforters....unjust accusations....feeling defenceless and vulnerable.

What is taking place right now, was taking place back in Noah’s time.....history is repeating....and humans are following the same pattern of behaviour becoming more and more accepting and depraved in their conduct, being fed a steady diet of violence and immorality along with supernatural things forbidden in God’s word.....this is shown in their entertainment choices...even the children are becoming inured to it all....nothing shocks them anymore as the world spirals down into a moral morass.

We must be “no part” of any of that. Our faith must be like Job in undergoing trials....and like that of Noah and his family....prepared to do all that God asks of us (to build our faith like Noah built the ark) and to be prepared for the cleansing of this earth that is to come, not by a flood this time, but by the fire of Jehovah’s anger.

Are we ready?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Is that commonly taught to all JW's, that Satan and all the demons will be saved? That's a new one for me. I've never heard a JW say that before.


@Aunty Jane do you agree?

I am fairly certain that @Pierac is not a JW although he holds some of our views.
Neither satan nor is demons will be saved because their sin was deliberate, and they knew what the penalty was before they acted on their use of free will. Perfect beings do not make mistakes.....imperfect ones do.
And as long as we are in these sinful bodies, sin will linger, although we can gain the mastery over it with God’s help. It is a choice to sin. The propensity is always there, but we can choose not to act on the sinful impulses that come with being a child of Adam.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Romans 6 does refer to the Resurrection of Christ, but also His crucifixion! Those two things of Christ's is what Jesus does to all who are baptized in the Holy Spirit. And ask yourself why? It is because Adam's sin that condemned his nature is what we inherited making our human nature a sin nature. That sin nature is what must die and be born again to be free of sin. Unfortunately, I do not see many denominations teaching this. Most Christian denominations say we will sin until this body dies and is resurrected. Is that what you meant also? I hope not, because those who keep sinning until they die and believe they have no choice but to sin until they die have believed a doctrine of demons. Demons know it will be too late. Revelation 22:11. Whatever state we die in we are stuck with. "11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

Romans 6:
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is addressed to the elect...those chosen by God and anointed with his spirit for life in heaven where they will reign with Christ as “kings and priests” over redeemed mankind on earth. (Rev 20:6)
These are chosen by God himself so there can be no disputing as to who is a member of this class of Christians.

If everyone was of this class, there would be “all chiefs and no Indians” as the old saying goes.
Kings need subjects to rule, and priests need sinners for who to perform their role as priests.

Rev 21:2-4 tells us that these will have rulership over “mankind” who will dwell on this earth as God purposed for them to do in a restored paradise where there will be no more death, or suffering or any impediment to our enjoyment of all that God created here for us.

 

[Hobie]

Some like to talk about the attributes of our soul thinking they understand it, when they really do not.

Our soul is immortal until... or IF... God destroys it. That's different than claiming the soul is not immortal, isn't it?

In case you didn't know, per Lord Jesus' promise of John 11:26, that means the soul of those who believe on Him is 'deemed' immortal already. And if you don't believe that, then why did you believe on Christ's Blood shed upon His cross so that you might have eternal life through Him?

John 11:26
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?
KJV


Once again, many claim things about the 'soul' which God created as part of our makeup, but rarely do they consult all the facts of Bible Scripture about it. They certainly will never understand about the 'soul' from using the things of this material world to discern it. Yet that is often what they attempt.

Our 'soul' part is attached with our 'spirit' part, and is of heavenly substance, because it originates from that other dimension called the heavenly. Our soul/spirit can be separated from our flesh body, as written. And because the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' are often used interchangeably, it simply is meant because they both are always together and refer to the person.

So why do you need a saviour if you you are immortal. You have eternal life of your own, is that what the Bible teaches. Of course not.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Romans 6 does refer to the Resurrection of Christ, but also His crucifixion! Those two things of Christ's is what Jesus does to all who are baptized in the Holy Spirit. And ask yourself why? It is because Adam's sin that condemned his nature is what we inherited making our human nature a sin nature. That sin nature is what must die and be born again to be free of sin.

I agree. But keep in mind that in the context in which we were speaking about Baptism, Paul is here explaining what it *means.* I believe my former conversation with someone was about whether Baptism is the equivalent of being "Born Again" in the sense "Born Again" refers to Resurrection.

Born Again, again, does not have to refer to resurrection at all. It refers to a new start, whether OT or NT, pre-resurrection or post-resurrection. But Paul, in the passage you referred to, explains what Baptism signifies. It is not referencing any conversation about whether the New Birth refers to Resurrection, or whether the spirit dies when the body dies.

When Christians speak of the death of the spirit they are sometimes simply speaking of a spatial separation caused between God, who is life, and a fallen human spirit. It is not talking about the extinction of the human spirit at mortal death.

And this is when Romans 6 comes into play, explaining how the fallen spirit of man, even while a person is still alive, can be "resurrected" metaphorically, through the resurrection of Christ. We are not being actually resuscitated spiritually, but more, reactivated, since our spirits are never really extinguished.

When by faith we take hold of the gift of life that Christ has legally bought for us, we are actually endowed with the spirituality of Christ, and so are eligible for resurrection. And in the meantime, we can benefit from his righteousness, which we are now legally entitled to have, without resort to religious ceremonies and preliminary prerequisites. We have already become the children of God.

 

[Runningman]

Some like to talk about the attributes of our soul thinking they understand it, when they really do not.

Our soul is immortal until... or IF... God destroys it. That's different than claiming the soul is not immortal, isn't it?

In case you didn't know, per Lord Jesus' promise of John 11:26, that means the soul of those who believe on Him is 'deemed' immortal already. And if you don't believe that, then why did you believe on Christ's Blood shed upon His cross so that you might have eternal life through Him?

John 11:26
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?
KJV


Once again, many claim things about the 'soul' which God created as part of our makeup, but rarely do they consult all the facts of Bible Scripture about it. They certainly will never understand about the 'soul' from using the things of this material world to discern it. Yet that is often what they attempt.

Our 'soul' part is attached with our 'spirit' part, and is of heavenly substance, because it originates from that other dimension called the heavenly. Our soul/spirit can be separated from our flesh body, as written. And because the terms 'soul' and 'spirit' are often used interchangeably, it simply is meant because they both are always together and refer to the person.

Close, but it's actually that only God is immortal.. until... He gives someone the gift of eternal life. Those in hell do not have the gift of eternal life. Therefore, the human soul is only conditionally immortal. The condition being God's decision.

1 Tim 6
16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

 

[Hobie]

Close, but it's actually that only God is immortal.. until... He gives someone the gift of eternal life. Those in hell do not have the gift of eternal life. Therefore, the human soul is only conditionally immortal. The condition being God's decision.

1 Tim 6
16He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Amen.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I am fairly certain that @Pierac is not a JW although he holds some of our views.
Neither satan nor is demons will be saved because their sin was deliberate, and they knew what the penalty was before their acted on their use of free will. Perfect beings do not make mistakes.....imperfect ones do.
And as long as we are in these sinful bodies, sin will linger, although we can gain the mastery over it with God’s help. It is a choice to sin. The propensity is always there, but we can choose not to act on the sinful impulses that come with being a child of Adam.

That is good to hear. That's why I never heard it before.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I agree. But keep in mind that in the context in which we were speaking about Baptism, Paul is here explaining what it *means.* I believe my former conversation with someone was about whether Baptism is the equivalent of being "Born Again" in the sense "Born Again" refers to Resurrection.

Born Again, again, does not have to refer to resurrection at all. It refers to a new start, whether OT or NT, pre-resurrection or post-resurrection. But Paul, in the passage you referred to, explains what Baptism signifies. It is not referencing any conversation about whether the New Birth refers to Resurrection, or whether the spirit dies when the body dies.

When Christians speak of the death of the spirit they are sometimes simply speaking of a spatial separation caused between God, who is life, and a fallen human spirit. It is not talking about the extinction of the human spirit at mortal death.

And this is when Romans 6 comes into play, explaining how the fallen spirit of man, even while a person is still alive, can be "resurrected" metaphorically, through the resurrection of Christ. We are not being actually resuscitated spiritually, but more, reactivated, since our spirits are never really extinguished.

When by faith we take hold of the gift of life that Christ has legally bought for us, we are actually endowed with the spirituality of Christ, and so are eligible for resurrection. And in the meantime, we can benefit from his righteousness, which we are now legally entitled to have, without resort to religious ceremonies and preliminary prerequisites. We have already become the children of God.

What do you believe about human nature? What do you believe that consists of according to 1 Thess. 5:23?

 

[Randy Kluth]

What do you believe about human nature? What do you believe that consists of according to 1 Thess. 5:23?

1 Thes 5.23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.

To be "kept blameless" is to have been found innocent in a legal sense. It doesn't mean we haven't committed the crime. It doesn't even mean we're still not committing crimes. It just determines that regardless, we are innocent.

Looking at it a little more strictly, it means that as Christians we have decided to put on Christ, to accept his lordship and his righteousness into our lives by the residence of the Holy Spirit. And so, we overcome our carnal nature daily and hourly by choosing Christ's love over our own wayward ways.

Ultimately, we will receive new immortal bodies that are not stained and corrupted by sin. Then we will live by Christ for the rest of eternity. And this is because we've chosen Christ as our Savior and as our righteousness.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

1 Thes 5.23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it.

To be "kept blameless" is to have been found innocent in a legal sense. It doesn't mean we haven't committed the crime. It doesn't even mean we're still not committing crimes. It just determines that regardless, we are innocent.

Looking at it a little more strictly, it means that as Christians we have decided to put on Christ, to accept his lordship and his righteousness into our lives by the residence of the Holy Spirit. And so, we overcome our carnal nature daily and hourly by choosing Christ's love over our own wayward ways.

Ultimately, we will receive new immortal bodies that are not stained and corrupted by sin. Then we will live by Christ for the rest of eternity. And this is because we've chosen Christ as our Savior and as our righteousness.

Are you saying that nothing in us get's born again supernaturally? It is all up to us and our choices against our carnal nature that Jesus leaves in us? Personally, knowing that Jesus is the Creator, I believe He supernaturally takes carnality out of our nature (spirit and soul; or mind and conscience heart) and on top of that comes into our nature syncing it to the divine nature of God.

cc: @Aunty Jane

 

[Randy Kluth]

Are you saying that nothing in us get's born again supernaturally? It is all up to us and our choices against our carnal nature that Jesus leaves in us? Personally, knowing that Jesus is the Creator, I believe He supernaturally takes carnality out of our nature (spirit and soul; or mind and conscience heart) and on top of that comes into our nature syncing it to the divine nature of God.

cc: @Aunty Jane

No, we still live in our mortal bodies, with its carnal tendencies and desires. We have to *overcome* them by the choice of our will and by the virtue that we obtain from Christ when we pursue it.

I wasn't referencing the New Birth. Of course we are Born Again when we choose Christ as our Savior. We choose him, and thus forfeit living by the autonomous, carnal man.

It is when we give up our self-autonomy that we become Born Again, because in choosing a spiritual lifestyle over a carnal lifestyle we are not just making good choices--we are choosing to *be good,* to be Christians.

Rebirth existed in the OT as well as in the NT, so it has to do with choosing a better lifestyle. In the NT era, it is choosing both the lifestyle of being led by Christ and choosing Christ himself to reside within us by the Holy Spirit.

Can we choose to do good without being spiritually regenerated? Of course. That's the point I'm making here.

We must not just choose to do good. We must choose to *be good,* to be regenerated into people who live only by the Spirit of Christ. To do good just some of the time is not a choice to be regenerated into a new person, spiritually.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No, we still live in our mortal bodies, with its carnal tendencies and desires. We have to *overcome* them by the choice of our will and by the virtue that we obtain from Christ when we pursue it.

I wasn't referencing the New Birth. Of course we are Born Again when we choose Christ as our Savior. We choose him, and thus forfeit living by the autonomous, carnal man.

It is when we give up our self-autonomy that we become Born Again, because in choosing a spiritual lifestyle over a carnal lifestyle we are not just making good choices--we are choosing to *be good,* to be Christians.

Rebirth existed in the OT as well as in the NT, so it has to do with choosing a better lifestyle. In the NT era, it is choosing both the lifestyle of being led by Christ and choosing Christ himself to reside within us by the Holy Spirit.

Can we choose to do good without being spiritually regenerated? Of course. That's the point I'm making here.

We must not just choose to do good. We must choose to *be good,* to be regenerated into people who live only by the Spirit of Christ. To do good just some of the time is not a choice to be regenerated into a new person, spiritually.

Again, what do you believe is born again in us that does not sin? Or do you believe we still sin because of our bodies and will sin until they die?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Again, what do you believe is born again in us that does not sin? Or do you believe we still sin because of our bodies and will sin until they die?

Whoever said being born again means that one does not sin? I don't believe that at all! God has put His Spirit in us, which of course is sinless. And he has generated a new nature in us that is focused entirely on obeying God's word. But that doesn't mean a person with this new nature is sinless. He doesn't always live by his new nature.

You seem to separate a person into 2 parts, one that is born again and does not sin, and the other one that will sin until death? I don't believe people can be divided up like that unless you're talking about 2 natures existing within a single person. The born again person still has a sin nature, but also has the Spirit of God indwelling him, giving him a new nature, as well.

So I think there are actually 2 natures within a single person, the carnal man wanting to sin and the spiritual man wanting to please God. The new nature that is in a man wants to do righteousness, but I cannot thereby say that the man is sinless.

He is a hybrid of sorts. He has a greater power within him, wanting to do righteousness, though he still has temptations and sinful tendencies. Each born again man or woman has two natures. But nobody is sinless, and nobody who is born again is free from his or her carnal tendencies.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Whoever said being born again means that one does not sin? I don't believe that at all! God has put His Spirit in us, which of course is sinless. And he has generated a new nature in us that is focused entirely on obeying God's word. But that doesn't mean a person with this new nature is sinless. He doesn't always live by his new nature.

You seem to separate a person into 2 parts, one that is born again and does not sin, and the other one that will sin until death? I don't believe people can be divided up like that unless you're talking about 2 natures existing within a single person. The born again person still has a sin nature, but also has the Spirit of God indwelling him, giving him a new nature, as well.

So I think there are actually 2 natures within a single person, the carnal man wanting to sin and the spiritual man wanting to please God. The new nature that is in a man wants to do righteousness, but I cannot thereby say that the man is sinless.

He is a hybrid of sorts. He has a greater power within him, wanting to do righteousness, though he still has temptations and sinful tendencies. Each born again man or woman has two natures. But nobody is sinless, and nobody who is born again is free from his or her carnal tendencies.

It is Paul that separates us into 3 parts, not 2. I just believe him, it did not originate with me. I repeat - 1 Thess. 5:23 spirit, soul and body.

Our nature consists of our spirit and soul. Our body is not sinful. It only does what our nature tells it to do. Simple. That is why we can be clean in this lifetime. We don't have to wait until our dead body is reborn to be sinless. (And that is not sinless perfection; I don't teach that nor does anyone else. They are two different things at two different times in our walk with Jesus. ) John said that no sinners will go to heaven, only children of God who have been cleansed of sin.

There are two types of sin. Sin unto death called lawlessness which are against God's laws; and sins NOT unto death which we will commit for however long it takes to mature in all of the fruit of the Spirit. Paul finally made it in his last letter to Timothy before he died.

It is the sins unto death that Jesus takes out of our natures making us righteous or "clean" as we see below. 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. And those who would add "practice" to the word of God in 1 John 3:9 is actually funny. "We won't practice murder, though we may slip up once in a while!"

To become perfect and holy takes abiding in Jesus and working on our immaturity. Peter puts them in order to accomplish 2 Peter 1:5-7 add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

John 15:1-4 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. The Catholics also know this and correctly call the difference between these two levels of sin, mortal sins and venial sins. Sin is lawlessness, thus we are clean or sinless. The venial sins are trespasses and even though we commit trespasses of immaturity, we are still clean/sinless.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Are you saying that nothing in us get's born again supernaturally? It is all up to us and our choices against our carnal nature that Jesus leaves in us? Personally, knowing that Jesus is the Creator, I believe He supernaturally takes carnality out of our nature (spirit and soul; or mind and conscience heart) and on top of that comes into our nature syncing it to the divine nature of God.

cc: @Aunty Jane

I actually have a totally different view of the whole “born again” statement made by Jesus.

Again in the big picture, we must ask....are all Christians of the “born again” category? I answer NO, because of the fact that the elect are the only ones who have “the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) and they alone need to be “born again” into a new body at their resurrection. They are said to be “resurrected first” and they will experience a resurrection “in the spirit”, like Jesus did. (1 Peter 3:18)
Jesus is called “the firstborn from the dead” because he is the very first human to receive a spiritual resurrection.

Once he had sacrificed his human life, he was prepared to return to his Father in heaven after his mission on earth was complete. He had to put off that body of flesh, and be given a new spirit body like he had before he came here. But he stayed around for 40 days to make sure that his disciples recovered from the events of Calvary, strengthening them for the difficult time ahead.

From the time of Abel, all men have died the same death “in the flesh”.......and “sheol/hades” received those who were to “sleep in death” until the coming of God’s Kingdom....no matter how long it took to become a reality. So taking my perspective from that knowledge, and never accepting the false belief in an immortal soul, I never had to worry about places for the dead to be accommodated....God already took care of that by making the earth itself their final resting place before the resurrection was to begin. Jesus calls the dead from their graves....both good and bad are raised from the same place. (John 5:28-29)

The apostles spoke about a “token in advance” of their “inheritance”....a spirit implanted desire to leave all earthly ties behind, and to be taken to rule with their Lord in heaven.

Eph 1:13-19 gives us insight...
“But you also hoped in him after you heard the word of truth, the good news about your salvation. After you believed, you were sealed by means of him with the promised holy spirit, 14 which is a token in advance of our inheritance, for the purpose of releasing God’s own possession by a ransom, to his glorious praise.

15 That is why I also, since I have heard of the faith that you have in the Lord Jesus and the love that you demonstrate toward all the holy ones, 16 never stop giving thanks for you. I continue mentioning you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him. 18 He has enlightened the eyes of your heart, so that you may know to what hope he called you, what glorious riches he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones.”

Can you see that there are those called “holy ones” and those who demonstrate love for these ones will be blessed. It says that God “has enlightened the eyes of your heart, so that you may know to what hope he called you, what glorious riches he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones.”

For those “called”, a heavenly inheritance awaits them, and these at their resurrection, are “born again” in a new body to reside in the realm where God himself dwells. And I can see by these words, that the “holy ones” are those called to a rich inheritance...but what of those not called? Does it mean that God loves them less because they have not been chosen to rule with Jesus?
No such animosity or envy can exist when life both realms will be marvellous. It is God who chooses where we will spend eternity, so we can leave it in his hands, so that no matter where we end up....we will love it!

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is Paul that separates us into 3 parts, not 2. I just believe him, it did not originate with me. I repeat - 1 Thess. 5:23 spirit, soul and body.

No, Paul did not *divide* us into 3 parts. He indicated that those 3 parts are integrated into one person. That was my point. You don't have a person who is sinless. You don't have a person who is born again who is always carnal. You have one person who lives in a carnal body, with a sin nature that tends towards rebellion against God's word. And you also have in the born again person the residence of the Holy Spirit, who has generated a new nature that is drawn to the word of God. That's what I said.

Our nature consists of our spirit and soul. Our body is not sinful.

We are one person. Our spirit inhabits our body, making us a soul--a person, who inhabits a body. When the body lusts, it is the soul in combination with the body that lusts. You don't have lust for other people's property without the body, without the eyes that see the property.

So to divide a person up between spirit and body makes no sense unless the spirit and the body are disconnected at death, leaving only the soul.

It only does what our nature tells it to do. Simple. That is why we can be clean in this lifetime. We don't have to wait until our dead body is reborn to be sinless. (And that is not sinless perfection; I don't teach that nor does anyone else. They are two different things at two different times in our walk with Jesus. ) John said that no sinners will go to heaven, only children of God who have been cleansed of sin.

Yes, people do teach Sinless Perfection. It is not necessarily stating people are sinless *all the time,* although some people claim it is possible theoretically.

But the usual position is that we can *sometimes* be sinless and perfect, when we are walking in the Spirit. In reality, even while we walk in the Spirit we remain flawed people, because our very nature has been infected.

The spirit is infected by spiritual inheritance of Adam's nature. And so, the soul is our person operating through the body with this poisoned spirit. But we can rely on God's Spirit to overcome our carnal tendencies.

There are two types of sin. Sin unto death called lawlessness which are against God's laws; and sins NOT unto death which we will commit for however long it takes to mature in all of the fruit of the Spirit. Paul finally made it in his last letter to Timothy before he died.

I have a different view of this. Some sins in the Law led to death. For example, the Canaanites were so corrupt that God consigned them all to death.

There are other sins for which purifications were prescribed, following confession. These were forgiven, atoned for, and reconciled. Israelites could then continue on obeying God under the Law and feel His blessings.

In the NT God is the judge over whether a sin deserves death or not, unless of course we're talking about the courts. Courts also decide death penalty cases. Even if someone repents in prison, they may be put to death if their crime is serious enough.

I don't think the "sin unto death" has anything to do with eternal judgment. It just has to do with prayers that will not work. They won't work in cases where God has already prescribed the judgment.