Your Soul IS Immortal, Until...

[Aunty Jane]

In sum, the soul is eternal, but cannot be said to "be immortal." It can only be said to "possess" mortality or immortality when it possesses such a body with these characteristics.

You are free to believe whatever is in your heart...but you play with scripture to make it say what you want it to.

We will all find out soon enough, who has accepted the ancient lies, and who is telling the inconvenient truth...

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are free to believe whatever is in your heart...but you play with scripture to make it say what you want it to.

That is a judgmental determination, and will not lead us to friendly discussion.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

What does that mean?
I was asking about why God chose to create material beings, on a material planet, in a material universe, when he is a spirit who resides in a place that is not material? Those who reside in that place with him, are not material beings either, and he has millions of spirit "sons".

Genesis 3:
8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

I know when I hear His voice I no longer feel alone.

I'll read the rest tomorrow. What part of Australia do you live. My mother was born and grew up in Toowoomba, Queensland

 

[Aunty Jane]

That is a judgmental determination, and will not lead us to friendly discussion.

It is a judgment we are forced to make if we want the truth and nothing but the truth…..
Jesus said that the truth would divide us, (Matt 10:34-36) as it must in these last days…..but ultimately it would “set us free”.

The old saying is true…..”a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”.

Our opinions are ours to have and to hold, but if we are standing with our fingers in our ears when the truth is told, we will have no one to blame but ourselves if we are hanging onto a comfortable lie rather than accepting an uncomfortable truth.
God will not correct us…our hearts must do the correcting.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Genesis 3:
8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

That is what happened after the fall…..hearing God’s voice at that time was not something pleasant. They had disobeyed their Sovereign and a knowledge of evil had entered their thoughts, resulting in a feeling of shame at their naked state. A flood of bad thoughts made them afraid to face him, which is why they hid.

What about God’s purpose for the earth and mankind upon it? Before the fall, what did God tell the humans as to the purpose of their being created?

I'll read the rest tomorrow. What part of Australia do you live. My mother was born and grew up in Toowoomba, Queensland

I am on the south coast of NSW….originally from Sydney.

 

[quietthinker]

Your Soul IS Immortal, Until...​

it is not.
thank you for that nonsense!

​

 

[MatthewG]

Every one on earth breathes in the spirit of life, given by God. Until they die and are raised again.

Resurrection Condemned, or of life.

Jesus said it. That means that if God is true.
People are raised from the dead. Even faithless people.

Your soul is the image of God you were created in which you decide what you will do with it.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Where does the Bible say that?

16 Then God made two great [d]lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

What does that mean?
I was asking about why God chose to create material beings, on a material planet, in a material universe, when he is a spirit who resides in a place that is not material? Those who reside in that place with him, are not material beings either, and he has millions of spirit "sons".

Where does the Bible say that?
In its opening statement, Genesis says simply..."In the Beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."
This is "the beginning" of his material creation....and must include the entire universe because nowhere does it say that our planet and solar system were created separately.....our earth was prepared for habitation separately. God simply chose the perfect planet, in a perfect location, to begin what may in the infinite future, become the start of colonizing many more planets.....who knows? It is a vast Universe!...and time means nothing to our infinite Creator.
We will have to wait and see, but if there were "bugs" to fix, here is where they are addressed and resolved before God can move on and complete his purpose for us here. We know in our hearts that we were never meant to live like this.


Before material creation came in to existence, there was a spirit realm inhabited by lifeforms specifically designed for life in that realm. Spirit beings need no life support as we know it, (water food or oxygen) so God sustains them in ways unknown to us mere mortals. We know that they have everlasting life in that realm, but they are not immortals either.....because they can have their lives taken from them, just like we can, if they disobey their Creator.

The Big Picture? Free will cannot be given to those whose lives are indestructible (which is what "immortality" means). Abuse of free will must have a penalty, otherwise, unchecked, disaster will result in the massive destruction of life and damage to the planet itself....as it already has. (Rev 11:18) Can you see the reason for God's permission of the present appalling state of affairs on earth, where the abuse of free will runs rampant, and which is completely contrary to what God's purpose was at the outset? What is the lesson?

Who hates the injustice, pain and suffering wrought by man on his fellow humans? Only those who can see past their patriotic sentiments to obey the law of the Christ. So many "Christians" have substituted one for the other, making themselves blood guilty before their Creator. (Isa 1:15) They have allowed hatred for others, usually based on race or religion or even political differences, to enter their hearts and be stirred by patriotic sentiments that kill the love we are supposed to express towards all. (Matt 5:43-44)

Unless we learn where that abuse can take us, experiencing its terrible consequences for ourselves, nothing will stop it happening again with another "satan" (resistor) who thinks more of himself than he should?
This is an object lesson that is more about the powerful creatures in God's heavenly family, since rebellion began with one of their own. They can wreak havoc in more damaging ways than mere humans can, by capturing their minds and hearts and deceiving them into opting for the kind of "freedom" that God never gave us. Humans are their pawns and those willingly manipulated by them will not survive the end that is coming.

Look where we are now and see why those who love God will be determined never to allow their minds and hearts to be corrupted like that again.....and why God will speedily pass judgment on any who contemplate going down that path again in the future. The precedents are set for all time to come, so that God's purpose for his material creation can go ahead into the infinite future unobstructed, and with the precious gift of free will preserved.

Beautifully written.

Even before Elohim created the earth and mankind, He could see the fall of Satan and of mankind and planned redemption which included the sinlessness of mankind and the rest of the angels and burnt up this earth and the heavens with a fervent heat sending Satan and his angels to hell that burns forever.

 

[Aunty Jane]

16 Then God made two great [d]lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night.

There is something interesting in this verse that many who hold your view seem to miss…..and that is the word “made” rather than the word “created”…..the two words are different for a reason.

In Hebrew, the word “bārā” means to bring something into being or existence….and we know from the creation account that God “created” all that exists “in the heavens and on the earth”. He created the materials from nothing to create something, amazing, both animate and inanimate things….sentient and non sentient lifeforms. When we look at creation we see a wonderful balance of intelligence and beauty and we alone are created to appreciate all that God made….and to show our appreciation by our worship of this wonderful and generous Creator.

But there is another word used in the verse you quoted, and that is “ʿāśâ” which is translated as “made”.
Since the scripture clearly states that the heaven and the earth were created “in the beginning”…these all came into existence at the same time by the spirit of God.

Other parts of the Bible also contribute to our knowledge about this time before we even existed.

The creative “days” were not restricted to mere 24 hour periods because again we see in the Hebrew language several uses of the word “day” (“yôm”) which can have several meanings. Even in English we say “in my grandfather’s ‘day’” without meaning a 24 hour period. So it is with “yôm”…..it can mean a period of time. The creative “days” then are not the acts of a magician, but the careful crafting of a Creator. And don’t we see perfection even in the smallest creatures?

So getting back to the appearance of the sun, moon and stars in Gen 1: 16…..the word used is “ʿāśâ” so it doesn’t mean “created” but actually “made” to be visible from an earthly standpoint. Why can we say this with confidence? The book of Job is instructive in this…

In Job 38:4-9 Job was asked…

“Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?
8 And who barricaded the sea behind doors
When it burst out from the womb,
9 When I clothed it with clouds
And wrapped it in thick gloom”.

If the earth was “wrapped in thick gloom” by it being “clothed with clouds” then the heavenly bodies would not have been visible until that cloud layer was removed, which apparently happened on the 4th day. So there was a cloud layer obscuring the sun, moon and stars, but still allowing enough light for plants to grow which took place on the 3rd day. These were the first living things that God created and we presume that bacteria which is produced in soil to facilitate plant growth came into existence then as well, but not mentioned because they are microscopic perhaps (not visible to human eyes).
Nice also to see that the angels were already in existence and applauding this new creation.

I like to dig deeper into things because I like to have the whole picture, not just disjointed bits of it. To me, the Bible‘s narrative has to be continuous as the chapters in a book should flow on from one to another.
Research is rewarding because all the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle fit into their respective places giving us “the Big Picture” and fortifying our faith in our marvelous Creator and in his purpose for our place here.

He did not design us humans for life in heaven…..this earth was lovingly prepared to be our permanent home.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

There is something interesting in this verse that many who hold your view seem to miss…..and that is the word “made” rather than the word “created”…..the two words are different for a reason.

In Hebrew, the word “bārā” means to bring something into being or existence….and we know from the creation account that God “created” all that exists “in the heavens and on the earth”. He created the materials from nothing to create something, amazing, both animate and inanimate things….sentient and non sentient lifeforms. When we look at creation we see a wonderful balance of intelligence and beauty and we alone are created to appreciate all that God made….and to show our appreciation by our worship of this wonderful and generous Creator.

But there is another word used in the verse you quoted, and that is “ʿāśâ” which is translated as “made”.
Since the scripture clearly states that the heaven and the earth were created “in the beginning”…these all came into existence at the same time by the spirit of God.

Other parts of the Bible also contribute to our knowledge about this time before we even existed.

The creative “days” were not restricted to mere 24 hour periods because again we see in the Hebrew language several uses of the word “day” (“yôm”) which can have several meanings. Even in English we say “in my grandfather’s ‘day’” without meaning a 24 hour period. So it is with “yôm”…..it can mean a period of time. The creative “days” then are not the acts of a magician, but the careful crafting of a Creator. And don’t we see perfection even in the smallest creatures?

So getting back to the appearance of the sun, moon and stars in Gen 1: 16…..the word used is “ʿāśâ” so it doesn’t mean “created” but actually “made” to be visible from an earthly standpoint. Why can we say this with confidence? The book of Job is instructive in this…

In Job 38:4-9 Job was asked…

“Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?
8 And who barricaded the sea behind doors
When it burst out from the womb,
9 When I clothed it with clouds
And wrapped it in thick gloom”.

If the earth was “wrapped in thick gloom” by it being “clothed with clouds” then the heavenly bodies would not have been visible until that cloud layer was removed, which apparently happened on the 4th day. So there was a cloud layer obscuring the sun, moon and stars, but still allowing enough light for plants to grow which took place on the 3rd day. These were the first living things that God created and we presume that bacteria which is produced in soil to facilitate plant growth came into existence then as well, but not mentioned because they are microscopic perhaps (not visible to human eyes).
Nice also to see that the angels were already in existence and applauding this new creation.

I like to dig deeper into things because I like to have the whole picture, not just disjointed bits of it. To me, the Bible‘s narrative has to be continuous as the chapters in a book should flow on from one to another.
Research is rewarding because all the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle fit into their respective places giving us “the Big Picture” and fortifying our faith in our marvelous Creator and in his purpose for our place here.

He did not design us humans for life in heaven…..this earth was lovingly prepared to be our permanent home.

I like to research also. Take 1 John 1:8. So many false doctrines exist because of believing we can disregard all Scriptures that contradict that verse like 1 John 3:9 and Romans 6:5-7. They even add the word practice to that verse to mean we are not completely free from sin after all.

 

[Pierac]

But this is not the issue for me, and perhaps not for many others either. We all know that "spirit" is used as an animating breath to a human body. God gave *life* to Man by breathing into him a spiritual existence. He became a soul, adorned by a human body.

As such, the spirit giving the body life, the "spirit" became synonymous with the "soul," once the person had been created. Again, he was created a spiritual being encased in a human body. This is not Platonism--this is Hebrew Bible. Even if Platonism shares some of these concepts, that does not mean it is the origin of Hebrew beliefs in this regard.

The *soul* is the person created as a spirit-animated body, and as such a spirit within the body. And so, the soul becomes synonymous with the human spirit.

Since the spirit-person was made to inhabit his body, the loss of that body, ie death, indicates that the *soul has died*--not that the soul has been extinguished but that the soul has lost its bodily wrapping. That is how "death" is defined, by the soul losing its bodily covering.

That's why Paul referred to the spirit without the body as "nakedness." The soul was designed to be clothed by a body, and not die, or at least not stay dead.

No, Jesus' spirit existed without a body for 3 days, and resumed habitation in his *old body.* And so, he still had to ascend to his Father to obtain a new glorified body, an "immortal body," so that he could give us this same thing at the proper time.

When we die, Paul indicates our spirit goes immediately to the Father, though we, like Jesus, would remain without a body until the time we receive our new glorified bodies. To be in Hades, as Jesus was for 3 days, just indicates that his soul, though with God, was in a state of mortality and death.

That is, Jesus had not yet been raised up out of the imprisonment of mortality and death, which he was experiencing for us. When we die now, as Christians, we don't go to Hades because Jesus freed us from the imprisonment of our spirits to the chains of eternal banishment.

Though we do not yet have immortality, we do have a get out of jail free card. We have Eternal Life, and are card-carrying.

When we speak of the soul presently, we do not speak of it being "immortal." If we mean that it is eternal, well and fine. But "immortal" has a connotation that can confuse, and I don't wish to use the term.

Nobody is "immortal" yet but Jesus. That is because he received a new immortal body.

While he was on earth, his body was mortal, and he could die. In our new glorified bodies we will never again die, and we can then be properly called "immortal."

Nothing you posted has scripture to back it up..

Show me in scripture.. where the soul can exist.... with out the Spirit of God!

Now... What the HE double tooth picks does this comment you made actually mean???

"When we speak of the soul presently, we do not speak of it being "immortal." If we mean that it is eternal, well and fine. But "immortal" has a connotation that can confuse, and I don't wish to use the term.... Nobody is "immortal" yet but Jesus. That is because he received a new immortal body.

What Jesus recieved is called..... a resurrection.... Jesus is now immortal because His God raised Him from the dead.... That's the point!!!

He is the first born from the dead... the beginning of a new creation... you do read scripture don't you... or are you following a formula told to you in Church?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Nothing you posted has scripture to back it up..

I have lots of Scripture to back it up. You just hadn't asked for it yet. Before I quote Scriptures I need to make my position clear.

While it's true that I haven't yet posted a lot of Scripture, there certainly are Scripture references being inferred by my statements. Everything I said is based on Scriptures.

Show me in scripture.. where the soul can exist.... with out the Spirit of God!

Where did I say the soul can exist without the Spirit of God? I don't even know what you mean by that? Everything exists because of the existence of the Spirit of God! He is the Creator and the sustainer of all life.

Now... What the HE double tooth picks does this comment you made actually mean???

Can we keep things civilized?

"When we speak of the soul presently, we do not speak of it being "immortal." If we mean that it is eternal, well and fine. But "immortal" has a connotation that can confuse, and I don't wish to use the term.... Nobody is "immortal" yet but Jesus. That is because he received a new immortal body.

I already explained what I meant, that I don't wish to use the term "immortal soul," because that gets confused with "eternal soul," which is true. "Immortality" has to do with the soul obtaining an immortal body, and in particular a glorified body such as the saints obtain.

What Jesus recieved is called..... a resurrection.... Jesus is now immortal because His God raised Him from the dead.... That's the point!!!

No, Jesus was raised from the dead *in his old body.* The indication *from the Scriptures* is that Thomas was able to see his scars--that indicates it was his old crucified body, healed and raised from the dead. Jesus was not yet immortal! He had to ascend to heaven to receive his new immortal body from his Father.

He is the first born from the dead... the beginning of a new creation... you do read scripture don't you... or are you following a formula told to you in Church?

Why don't we talk about this respectfully? I've been going over these things for a lot of years. Your assumption that I'm just "repeating doctrine" is pure guess-work on your part. I tend to be conservative, but I don't just parrot doctrine.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Even before Elohim created the earth and mankind, He could see the fall of Satan and of mankind and planned redemption which included the sinlessness of mankind and the rest of the angels and burnt up this earth and the heavens with a fervent heat sending Satan and his angels to hell that burns forever.

Here again, I have a different perspective on this….there is nothing wrong with the planet….it is perfect, but straining under man’s mismanagement…….it is earth’s inhabitants encumbered by sin who are making life anything but meaningful and happy in the way mankind is governed at present. World rulership was given over to satan to prove his claim to be a better ruler than Jehovah. (Luke 4:5-7) The humans could not be told that obedience was the better choice, so they had to be shown where disobedience leads.

The “freedom” satan offers to people is to abuse their free will and impose their will on others, using force in some cases, and too much freedom in others…neither can be successful without balance and the exercise of the moral qualities that God instilled in us. Free will was supposed to be a gift, but satan and his human minions have turned it into a curse.

It is true that God had solutions to all contingencies all ready to implement, regardless of what choices they made, but he did not determine their choices in advance, but allowed them to use their free will as they chose. He thereafter responded to their choices…and here we are.

God’s first purpose for the earth and humankind upon it will be restored because as Creator, Jehovah cannot fail at anything he does. What he starts, he finishes…perfectly. (Isa 55:11)

The earth is not going anywhere, what will be destroyed as if by fire, is the whole system that mankind has used under the devil’s control to manipulate the human race to do his bidding. (1 John 5:19) We are living in a world where God has been told to leave. Those who threw him in the trash, and those who want to dictate their own term of worship, will have no place here when the judgment is implemented.

Those who will form the nucleus of the “new earth” that we are awaiting will reap the benefits of their faithful obedience to God.

There is no burning hell…the lake of fire is symbolic….it means “the second death”, not a second life.

 

[TheHC]

I think that when the body and spirit/life are separated, the soul becomes detached from the mortal body.

All of your references state the obvious, that the mortal body, when it dies, ceases to operate its normal functions. A person no longer thinks or knows anything in the body--the body is wasted.

None of this means the soul, separated from the body, no longer knows or thinks anything. The soul no longer operates through the corpse, but can still operate as a spiritual entity without the body. It just has no more connection with the earth.

Again, I don't call the soul "immortal," because the definition confuses Christian and pagan concepts. The soul is eternal, in my view, but mortality concerns the physical body alone.

I’m sorry, but no….
The Bible repeatedly mentions “dead soul”, or “dead souls”.

Leviticus 19:28…

Leviticus 21:1…

Leviticus 21:11…

Leviticus 22:4…

Numbers 5:2…

Numbers 6:6…

Numbers 6:11…

Numbers 19:11…

Etc.

The Hebrew word used is “nephesh”, the word for “soul”. Not “body”, or “corpse”, or “the dead”, or anything else.

Don’t let inaccuracies in translation mislead you! Some, unwittingly, do just that…. they lead the reader away from what is the truth. That happens when translators are attached to a bias.

 

[TheHC]

No, Jesus was raised from the dead *in his old body.*

Come on , now…. I’m sure you’re aware of the instances where his disciples didn’t recognize him!
And he could disappear from them.

As Peter said @ 1 Peter 3:18, he was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.”

 

[Randy Kluth]

I’m sorry, but no….
The Bible repeatedly mentions “dead soul”, or “dead souls”.
...The Hebrew word used is “nephesh”, the word for “soul”. Not “body”, or “corpse”, or “the dead”, or anything else.
Don’t let inaccuracies in translation mislead you! Some are designed to do just that…. to lead away from what is the truth.

I'm not sure you understand my argument, because your Scripture references don't apply. I'm talking about semantics here--not what the quotes are saying. I'm talking about what the word of these quotes are *meaning.*

When I say a "soul died," I'm not saying that the "nephesh" as an entity indwelling a body ceased to exist. No, I'm saying that the death of the "nephesh" is defined as the loss of its body--not the cessation of its existence.

There are 2 thoughts here, and only 1 is true. The "death of the soul" either means...
1) The soul ceases to exist, or
2) The soul loses its bodily covering.

I believe the the death of a soul means that the spirit lives on in a state of nakedness because it has lost its body, which it is designed to have. Death was not the natural state of the soul as God created it. Losing its bodily covering was never intended, by God, to be the state of the soul for eternity.

So in my view, the soul dies by losing its body, and not by ceasing to exist. A "soul dying" refers only to the person/soul shedding his body. A "soul dying" does not refer to the annihilation of the soul, as a separate entity, itself.

 

[Pierac]

I already explained what I meant, that I don't wish to use the term "immortal soul," because that gets confused with "eternal soul," which is true. "Immortality" has to do with the soul obtaining an immortal body, and in particular a glorified body such as the saints obtain.

NO.. It's not true... That's the whole point of God raising His Messiah/Christ Jesus from the dead... It's a new Beginning!

BORN AGAIN.....

Come on Nicodemus..... (Joh 3:4)

You (ie Soul) must be born again!!!! ... Resurrected !!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

There is no burning hell…the lake of fire is symbolic….it means “the second death”, not a second life.

What happens to the immortal Satan and his immortal angels?

 

[Pierac]

What happens to the immortal Satan and his immortal angels?

He will be restored... Made new....

Act 3:20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Revelations is not the end....

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He (Jesus) has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He (Jesus) must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (Jesus) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (God). 28 When all things are subjected to Him (God), then the Son (Jesus) Himself also will be subjected to the One (God) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.

The wages of sin is death.... If death is destroyed then sin can not exist.... Then you wll have sinless souls burning for ever for nothing!!!

Words mean things....