Your Thoughts: 1 Thessalonians 1:2-4

[charity]

'According as He hath chosen us in Him
before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame
before him in love: ... ... '
(Eph 1:4)

Hello @Ronald Nolette,

This epistle is written to 'the saints in Ephesus and faithful in Christ Jesus' at Ephesus, and wherever it was circulated. These were already saved. Paul could say, 'He (God) hath chosen US'. When? 'before the foundation of the world' With what purpose? 'That we should be holy and without blame before Him in love' (ie., 'Holy and without blemish' Ephesians 5:23-25) or ('Holy and unblameable' Colossians 1:12-23). This is what we are 'In Christ' now; 'made meet' by the Father (Ephesians 1:4, Colossians 1:12) by the offering of His Son (Ephesians 5:25-27; Colossians 1:22), 'presented perfect' by the Son . 'Blessed be God' indeed!

* Ir is a finished work!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

@Backlit
@Hidden In Him

Hello there,

I quote my post (above) because it was referred to by 'Backlit'.

In Ephesians, I believe that the 'choosing' of God, which took place before the foundation of the world, was not to salvation itself, but to 'the calling' that was being revealed to them in that Epistle, and the other epistles written by Paul, from prison at that time. Which was to the church which is His (Christ's) body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all. The calling which would heal the rent caused by the departure of Israel into the blindness of unbelief at Acts 28, and draw them together, both Jew and Gentile believer into one united and equal body, with Christ as their Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes, I know Christians who I know for a fact have been chosen by God. I know it by the fact that they are growing up into that which God chose them to be. Myself included.

Ok. My apologies, FB, for not getting back sooner. I got swamped over the weekend. The standard question I have been asking in this regard is, suppose the following scenario: You know a Christian who exhibits all the signs of being saved; he prays, he witnesses, he reads scripture, goes to church, and even has a successful ministry. Then one day you find out that he has come to the conclusion his faith is a lie, and he is no longer a Christian; he has denounced his faith. Would you consider such a person to have truly been chosen by God still, or would you think that maybe you simply assumed he was when he was not.

The fact that they have become imitators of the Lord shows they are being conformed into the image of Christ, the very thing that believers are predestined to have happen to them....

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... Romans 8:29

10 ...created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10
The predetermined plan is that people who are elected to salvation on the basis of their faith will be conformed to the image of Christ in the doing of good works. That's why he saved us.....

14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Titus 2:14

Looks like we would be at odds on the issue of predestination. My response here would be as I gave to Ronald. In response to how he was reading the passage, I told him that words "chosen to be saved" are not actually in our text in 1st Thessalonians. Granted, it is a viable interpretation of what is being said, but that wording is not actually used. The clause "that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love" is there, which is why I highlighted it, but the phrase, "that we should be saved" is not. But I do understand that there has long been a difference of opinion on what the initial phrase means.

Likewise, your quotations of Romans 8:29 and Ephesians 2:10 speak of being chosen or predestined to walk in good works and be conformed to His image, not necessarily "to be saved." The latter would still depend on if we chose to walk in the former, and still be dependent upon our human will.

Paul knew God has chosen them by the fact that the gospel came to them with deep conviction in the power of the Holy Spirit and that they welcomed it with the joy of the Spirit.

4 ...we know that He has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power, in the Holy Spirit, and with great conviction—just as you know we lived among you for your sake. 6And you became imitators of us and of the Lord when you welcomed the message with the joy of the Holy Spirit... 1 Thessalonians 1:4-6
People are chosen on the basis of their faith. Not only was it evident that God was working through Paul's message, but their joyful reception of the message showed they had the faith upon which God choses people for salvation.

I will be discussing this passage in the next study, but Charity quoted this passage as well, and I find it to be the key to answering Question #1 in the OP. Read Post #34 and tell me what you think of my response in light of this passage.

 

[Hidden In Him]

no need to respond ...just thinking out loud.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Predestination...is this the same as an predetermined destination or outcome? John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Hi Victory.

Yes, these passages make it clear we were predestined for these things, according to the plan of God. But the question becomes, does walking in what the verses speak of guarantee our salvation, or is that still something left to be determined by if we continue to walk in them until we die. As I was telling Ferris, the words "chosen to be saved" are not actually in our text in 1st Thessalonians. Granted, it is a viable interpretation of what is being said, but that wording is not actually used. The clause "that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love" is there, which is why I highlighted it, but the phrase, "that we should be saved" is not. But I do understand that there has long been a difference of opinion on what the initial phrase means.

Likewise, your quotations of Romans 8:29 and Ephesians 2:10 speak of being chosen or predestined to walk in good works and be conformed to His image, not necessarily "to be saved." The latter would still depend on if we chose to walk in the former, and still be dependent upon our human will.

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Hidden In Him, I believe there is more here to be considered in relation to the election of these believers in Thessalonica, which shows the outworking of God's purposes at that time. It was a choosing for a purpose, of which salvation was a requisite part, but not necessarily the end in view. The goal being so much bigger. The fact that they are described as being 'devout Greeks', who obviously believed in the God of Israel, and attended the synagogue for the purpose of hearing the word of God, in the form of the Old Testament Scriptures, read to them. They would have known Paul's readings from the prophets and the psalms, concerning the Messiah, the Holy one of Israel, as the Jews in the congregation did, and God gave them the grace to believe that these prophesies were concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, whose birth, ministry, death and resurrection were all the subject of those Old Testament scriptures. Their eyes were opened and their ears opened to believe and receive the gift of God, of salvation, in and through the Lord Jesus Christ, and in doing so, they would enflame the Jew into jealousy, with the hope that they would come to repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah and King.

These were not, the 'far off Gentile' described in Ephesians, which would be written about by Paul at least 10 years later. These were Gentiles who believed in God already, they were devout, as Cornelius had been, who on believing the word's of the gospel preached by Paul, would be grafted into Israel's Olive Tree in the endeavour to promote growth into that ailing tree, as Cornelius had been following the preaching of Peter. They received of the manifestation of the gifts of the spirit associated with the millennial reign. This would have been evidenced by the unbelieving Jews, and they reacted against them out of jealousy, for the blessings being given were rightfully their's, but which they could not access because of their unbelief.

This is very insightful, Charity. It goes along the same lines as the principle that "to him who has, more shall be given." I had not noticed the passage in Acts 17 before, and it all the more explains why the choice to have them hear the gospel first was made. And does this not speak to the importance of the receptiveness of the hearers? Given your text, it seems obvious enough that they were chosen based on their receptiveness to the gospel.

Thank you for the excellent post, and my apologies for not getting to it sooner.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Well yes saved is not explicitly said in this passage, but only the saved are in christ and only the saved are to be holy and without blame before HIm in love. so "those to be saved" is accurately expressing what is being said by the verse.

We are chosen to be in HIM, and as a result of being chosen, we are to be holy and without blame.

Indeed, only the saved are to be holy and without blame, and only the saved are chosen to be in Him. But now, the wording of these phrases sort of puts the cart before the horse, so to speak. My teaching on the issue is that they were chosen to walk in good works and thus chosen to be conformed to His image, but that whether we do or not (and attain unto salvation in the end) is still a matter of how we walk out our lives until the end.

The holy and without blame is a result of being chosen and not the choice itself.

This seems to separate put the choice of believers in the equation. I responded to something Charity said in Post #64. Tell me what you think of that.

God bless.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hi my bro, @charity put it well in her last post. Even before the foundation of the world, we, that is the entire human race, was chosen to be be saved. This to my mind has nothing to do with predestination, as most people think of predestination. God did not have to save us. He could have left us to languish in iniquity and eventually die and be ultimately destroyed. God did not have to send His only Son ti die in our place. But He chose to do so. And Jesus His Son agreed. They chose to save, redeem, and deliver mankind from the curse of sin, rescue us from what would have been oblivion, and both Father and Son paid the ultimate price. The Son chose to become human, chose to die, chose to forever link Himself with mankind in a bond that can never be broken. His death (not a make believe or metaphorical death, nor even just the temporary death of sleep aka Lazarus) was real, totally self sacrificial risking eternal damnation for our sakes. This He chose to do, thus we are His chosen.
And no-one was left out...so it isn't a matter of some being chosen for salvation, and some chosen to damnation. Jesus died for every man.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Jesus died even for our enemies. By His uplifted cross, and ongoing priestly ministry in heaven before the throne of His Father, Jesus is drawing all men to repentance. His gracious love is so strong and persistent, that the sinner must resist it in order to be lost. All present joys and blessings are wholly due to the cross of Christ, without which mankind would have long ago perished. Christ died for the ungodly.
2 Cor. 5:
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
...19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (Rom. 5:15-18)
If it were not so, if one needed credentials or qualifications or works, it would cease to be a free gift. As all were in Adam, and thus inheriting the sinful nature of Adam and were thus under condemnation, so now all are in Christ, the second Adam. Since He paid the price for all our sins, therefore all are chosen to be saved, to be holy, and in that sense, predestined to life, however, though we are the elect, and chosen, we also have the choice to accept or reject what we are offered. (2 Cor. 6:1) The only reason anyone will be ultimately lost, is unbelief. The lost will not be condemned because of their sin...but because of the unbelief.

Ok, thanks. I understand you better now. Let me get the rest and I will respond.

although all are chosen to salvation, we are each chosen for a specific purpose as ministers of the gospel, having different gifts and directions and "circles" in which we operate, all I believe chosen by God in His perfect providence. That doesn't mean we don't go astray. By that I mean, go to people or live in a town or city for reasons outside of God's immediate purpose and will. Yet all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called (chosen) according to His purpose. I have been in that position. I have moved to another city for reasons other than God's purpose. Yet He brought about circumstances and situations where through His providence, good indeed came. And yet God allowed me to err, knowing His own power and confident that He could teach, guide, pursue me regardless of my impetuousness. Lesson learned however. Some of those experiences and places I don't want to repeat, yet through them I gained a great deal, possibly more than if I had never erred?

I agree with this part. Many if not all are predestined not just for good works but also for specific callings in Him, though some struggle their whole lives trying to find out what those callings actually are.

To your question as to why Paul stated that the Thessalonians were chosen. No, not superfluous, but to a church struggling through persecution and trials of faith, to be told they were chosen is a word of encouragement.

Here would be the cruz of our disagreement. See, to me, if "chosen" applied to the whole world, it seems it would be of little consolation to them, since of course they are chosen. If this were the Christian theology, then everyone is. Not that it would not be encouraging, of course, to be reminded of Christ's work...

And now that I'm looking ahead a few verses, what is said soon thereafter seems to say something else. As a few others quoted, "'For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."

These phrases seem to all the more explain specifically how they were chosen, which would in my eyes distinguish them from the world, wouldn't you think? Or do you not read the verses that way?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, btw. It's an interesting take on the concept of predestination and one I've never considered before. I just can't say as I can fully buy in, however.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

But the question becomes, does walking in what the verses speak of guarantee our salvation,

depends on what our guarantee is? That is why I brought up the passage where Paul was telling them he trusted they would know he (they) were not reprobates, even though he (they) yet appeared to them to be reprobates. What I hear is a tremendous trust in God like all the passages in the OT of putting trust in God. How did Paul trust they would know what hadn’t yet appeared? how did Paul know that “when we are weak, you are strong” hoping even in their perfection(to be complete)? If not for “My strength is made perfect (perfected) in weakness”?
Consider that...Paul trusted in God’s strength being made perfect upon weakness and how Paul rejoiced in their being made complete. Trusting it to be certain because God said “My strength(My power resting upon you) is made perfect in weakness.” Consider their strength “completion, perfected” upon Paul who said I will be weak that you be made strong. For your strength made perfect upon weakness is the power of God (His Strength) in YOU being made perfect.

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

then you asked if the guarantee IS ONLY if we continue to the end? If the guarantee is God then how does God not continue until the end? Seems the “examine yourselves” is where do you put your trust? Where is your Faith? In His Will or mans free will to do as he so chooses?

My struggle with God lately is Floyd. He was a pastor and although I didn’t know him very well ...he was always so easy going, so loving...a man that made others smile and uplifted whenever he came into a room. That I do remember. Honestly there hasn’t been many from my past where I can see there was fruit. Floyd was one...then the last of his life was spent with Alzheimer’s. So much so those who knew him said he was agitated, aggressive, nothing like he was before, removing his wedding band and giving it away, no longer of a right mind. You are going to have a hard time convincing me when Floyd’s end came (possibly way before the loss of mind) and that God can’t overcome; even that which causes so much doubt for me now. For instance why such a horrible ending?

you said: continue until the end
How do you define “the end”?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This one took me a bit to think through for a second, but the problem for me here is this: It assumes that they are/were unconditionally saved and could never lose their salvation.

Is this something you subscribe to?

Absolutely! Remember saints are chosen from before the foundation of the world to be in christ! So saints being saved is a foregone conclusion that only requires time to go into effect.

We are saved forever once saved. We cannot sin our way out of salvation because all sins were judged and paid for at the cross! Unbelievers do not go ot hell because of their sin acts- but because they rejected the payment for their sins. Sins as a thought about eternal destiny is no longer an issue. The only thing we do in sharing the gospel is to tell the lost to accept the payment for their sin and be given th enew life !

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Indeed, only the saved are to be holy and without blame, and only the saved are chosen to be in Him. But now, the wording of these phrases sort of puts the cart before the horse, so to speak. My teaching on the issue is that they were chosen to walk in good works and thus chosen to be conformed to His image, but that whether we do or not (and attain unto salvation in the end) is still a matter of how we walk out our lives until the end.


This seems to separate put the choice of believers in the equation. I responded to something Charity said in Post #64. Tell me what you think of that.

God bless.

Well in response to #64. It is not based on the receptiveness of the hearers. No one in and of themselves will ever choose God! Never. The flesh will not do so. So God has to intervene to even give us a desire to choose for it is not in us! Now once saved we do have free will resotred as only the saved can choose between good and evil. So the measure of our growth is in our hands (along with the measure of Joy, peace and love we experience in this life), but the fact we will stand holy and without blame before our Father is guaranteed!

 

[Hidden In Him]

My struggle with God lately is Floyd. He was a pastor and although I didn’t know him very well ...he was always so easy going, so loving...a man that made others smile and uplifted whenever he came into a room. That I do remember. Honestly there hasn’t been many from my past where I can see there was fruit. Floyd was one...then the last of his life was spent with Alzheimer’s. So much so those who knew him said he was agitated, aggressive, nothing like he was before, removing his wedding band and giving it away, no longer of a right mind. You are going to have a hard time convincing me when Floyd’s end came (possibly way before the loss of mind) and that God can’t overcome; even that which causes so much doubt for me now. For instance why such a horrible ending?

you said: continue until the end
How do you define “the end”?

The early part of your post uses so many scriptures intertwined that it would be a lot to sort through, but let me answer this. How one defines "enduring until the end" is at issue. Just because someone faces greater hardships later in life and it effects their personality and the way they treat others doesn't mean they are not still maintaining their relationship with Christ, just that they are facing greater trials. My examples were of those who openly turn to denouncing the Lord and publicly departing from the faith in the sight of God and man.

As for thinking about your friend, scripture says to think on positive things, so please don't get upset about that. These discussions are intended to uplift others in the word, not bring them down : )

 

[Hidden In Him]

Absolutely! Remember saints are chosen from before the foundation of the world to be in christ! So saints being saved is a foregone conclusion that only requires time to go into effect.

We are saved forever once saved. We cannot sin our way out of salvation because all sins were judged and paid for at the cross! Unbelievers do not go ot hell because of their sin acts- but because they rejected the payment for their sins. Sins as a thought about eternal destiny is no longer an issue. The only thing we do in sharing the gospel is to tell the lost to accept the payment for their sin and be given th enew life !

Ok. I doubt I'll have the time to get into a full-blown treatment of predestination with you (I'd like to, but I made the mistake of creating two of these threads and immediately buried myself). But let me just ask for future reference - hoping I remember your answer: When Paul tells Timothy, "If we deny Him, He will deny us," do you think Paul was indeed speaking of himself and Timothy literally? The reason I ask is because if this is an impossibility then it seems to fly in the face of why Paul would even say it to begin with.

But just curious. If you can, give me your full interpretation of 2 Timothy 2:12-13. I'd like to hear it.

Thanks for your answers.

 

[Mayflower]

Unbelievers do not go to hell because of their sin acts- but because they rejected the payment for their sins.

@Ronald Nolette WOW never thought of it that way

 

[keithr]

Here would be the cruz [crux] of our disagreement. See, to me, if "chosen" applied to the whole world, it seems it would be of little consolation to them, since of course they are chosen. If this were the Christian theology, then everyone is. Not that it would not be encouraging, of course, to be reminded of Christ's work...

I think there may be some confusion between "chosen" and "saved". All of mankind have been saved by Jesus' sacrifice, that is they are saved from the penalty of sin, which is death. Hence everyone is to be saved from death and will be resurrected to life again. However, during this Gospel age God is calling people to become members of the body of Christ, and brothers to Jesus, to become part of a new creation (not human) - "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation" (2 Cor 5:17) (Galations 6:15). This is what God has chosen and is calling people for.

The merit of Jesus' sacrifice is applied to (and only to) Christians during the Gospel age, so only Christians are currently saved (the rest of mankind will be saved later). God chose and predestined these people before they were born, they were chosen to become members of God's household - "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love; having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire" (Eph 1:4,5). So Christians are chosen to become part of a new creation, having an immortal spiritual nature, exactly as Jesus now has - the same as God! “Consider how great is the love which the Father has bestowed on us in calling us his chlidren! For that is what we are. The reason why the world does not recognize us is that it has not known him. Dear friends, we are now God’s children; what we shall be has not yet been disclosed, but we know that when Christ appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:1-2 REB). "For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Whom he predestined, those he also called. Whom he called, those he also justified. Whom he justified, those he also glorified" (Rom 8:29,30).

Everyone is saved, but not everyone is called to become a member of the body of Messiah, and a bride for Jesus.

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that you may proclaim the excellence of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: who in time past were no people, but now are God’s people, who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy." (1Pe 2:9,10).

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The early part of your post uses so many scriptures intertwined that it would be a lot to sort through, but let me answer this. How one defines "enduring until the end" is at issue. Just because someone faces greater hardships later in life and it effects their personality and the way they treat others doesn't mean they are not still maintaining their relationship with Christ, just that they are facing greater trials. My examples were of those who openly turn to denouncing the Lord and publicly departing from the faith in the sight of God and man.

As for thinking about your friend, scripture says to think on positive things, so please don't get upset about that. These discussions are intended to uplift others in the word, not bring them down : )

thank you for the reminder of
Philippians 4:7-8 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. [8] Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ok. I doubt I'll have the time to get into a full-blown treatment of predestination with you (I'd like to, but I made the mistake of creating two of these threads and immediately buried myself). But let me just ask for future reference - hoping I remember your answer: When Paul tells Timothy, "If we deny Him, He will deny us," do you think Paul was indeed speaking of himself and Timothy literally? The reason I ask is because if this is an impossibility then it seems to fly in the face of why Paul would even say it to begin with.

But just curious. If you can, give me your full interpretation of 2 Timothy 2:12-13. I'd like to hear it.

Thanks for your answers.

The "we" is added by the translators. but given that, I believe it is a generic we as Jesus said that anyone who denies Him He would also deny.

One who is truly saved will not deny the Lord, and I am not speaking the Peter type denial, but a full denial of who Christ is and what He did to save us!

My answer is surrounded by the thought of Matthew 7 where Jesus said He never knew those lost people, and also 1 JOhn 2 where those who went out from the believers are said to never had been believers, though they may have acted like it for a time.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I think there may be some confusion between "chosen" and "saved". All of mankind have been saved by Jesus' sacrifice, that is they are saved from the penalty of sin, which is death. Hence everyone is to be saved from death and will be resurrected to life again. However, during this Gospel age God is calling people to become members of the body of Christ, and brothers to Jesus, to become part of a new creation (not human) - "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation" (2 Cor 5:17) (Galations 6:15). This is what God has chosen and is calling people for.

The merit of Jesus' sacrifice is applied to (and only to) Christians during the Gospel age, so only Christians are currently saved (the rest of mankind will be saved later).

Up to this point here, we are in agreement, and thanks for responding : )

God chose and predestined these people before they were born, they were chosen to become members of God's household - "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and without defect before him in love; having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire" (Eph 1:4,5)

Here's where we would part company theologically, but as is often the case in discussions of this subject, Keith, it has to do with how the verse is interpreted. I consistently approach these verses with an exacting analysis of the actual words being used. You see, many often interpret various clauses like the above as saying in effect, "having predestined us for salvation," when in fact the actual wording is, "having chosen us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire." Now, naturally if a child remains in God's family until the time of his death, he is indeed guaranteed of salvation. But depending upon one's theology, this is no guarantee. The passage, like the other ones you cited, simply states that they were predestined for adoption (or to be conformed to His image, which is playing on the exact same theme). As for the phrase "before the foundation of the world," this relates back to the previous phrase, "even as he chose us in Him," meaning that it was in the plan of God before the foundation of the world that in due time Christ would be sacrificed and the Spirit would be poured out upon those who believed, and that this would be the means by which we would "be holy and without defect before him in love; having predestined us for adoption as children through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his desire."

We may not be able to see eye to eye on this one, because beliefs become set in stone on issues like this - I know that's the case with me - but I enjoy discussing the word with you just the same.

Thank you for the thoughtful post!

 

[Hidden In Him]

The "we" is added by the translators.

2 Timothy 2:12-13? No, it's in there. But the question remains who was he referring to, and how inclusive was he being; was he literally including himself and Timothy, or simply referring to others who named the name of Christ "generically" as you said.

My answer is surrounded by the thought of Matthew 7 where Jesus said He never knew those lost people

Ah, an interesting argument. But I take this as a reference to a class of heretics Jesus prophesied were coming, and which numerous epistles made reference to (including Jude, 2 Peter, and 2 Timothy). There were people moving in supernatural gifts during NT times who were actually empowered by demonic spirits to do so. These people truly had never known the Lord, and practiced a form of so-called "Christianity" that was actually a sex religion and a dedication to occult magic (the Gnostics).

and also 1 JOhn 2 where those who went out from the believers are said to never had been believers, though they may have acted like it for a time.

Same group of people. John's epistles are widely considered to be a refutation against Gnosticism.

Anyway, I'm wearing down a bit, so forgive me if I'm slow to keep up with you. But if you have other comments you'd like to add, I'll do my best to get to them asap.

God bless, and thanks for sharing.
- H

 

[Ronald Nolette]

2 Timothy 2:12-13? No, it's in there. But the question remains who was he referring to, and how inclusive was he being; was he literally including himself and Timothy, or simply referring to others who named the name of Christ "generically" as you said.


Ah, an interesting argument. But I take this as a reference to a class of heretics Jesus prophesied were coming, and which numerous epistles made reference to (including Jude, 2 Peter, and 2 Timothy). There were people moving in supernatural gifts during NT times who were actually empowered by demonic spirits to do so. These people truly had never known the Lord, and practiced a form of so-called "Christianity" that was actually a sex religion and a dedication to occult magic (the Gnostics).


Same group of people. John's epistles are widely considered to be a refutation against Gnosticism.

Anyway, I'm wearing down a bit, so forgive me if I'm slow to keep up with you. But if you have other comments you'd like to add, I'll do my best to get to them asap.

God bless, and thanks for sharing.
- H

No they are not there.

2 Timothy 2:12 Greek Text Analysis, they are added. And as there are so many passages that speak of the security of the believer we must conclude it is referring to others.

Well they may be part and parcel of that, but I also recognize that many people who are paft of Christendom are not part of Christianity( By this I mean they may go to church and even have devoutness and piety, but never trusted Christ).

Yes John wrote against gnosticism. But they also apply to today and false believers who profess a form of godliness but deny the power. That means they may look like wheat for a season , but in the end they show themselves weeds.

 

[Hidden In Him]

No they are not there.

2 Timothy 2:12 Greek Text Analysis, they are added.

I'm confused. Your source reads:

εἰ (if) ὑπομένομεν (we endure) καὶ συμβασιλεύσομεν (we will also reign together [with Him]).
εἰ (if) ἀρνησόμεθα (we will deny [Him]), κἀκεῖνος (He also) ἀρνήσεται ἡμᾶς (will deny us).

And as there are so many passages that speak of the security of the believer we must conclude it is referring to others.

This is why I like to take passages one by one and really examine them in detail. When each one is put under a microscope, sometimes what we thought were many verses that taught a certain thing start to evaporate. But again, I understand what it means to be reading multiple verses from a certain perspective. It can be tough reading them any other way because an interpretation has become so engrained. Not that such interpretations are necessarily wrong, mind you, but if they are, they can be very hard to extricate oneself from.

Well they may be part and parcel of that, but I also recognize that many people who are paft of Christendom are not part of Christianity( By this I mean they may go to church and even have devoutness and piety, but never trusted Christ).

Correct.

Yes John wrote against gnosticism. But they also apply to today and false believers who profess a form of godliness but deny the power. That means they may look like wheat for a season, but in the end they show themselves weeds.

Absolutely. Today there are more varieties of "weeds" than you can shake a stick at, both literally and spiritually, LoL.
Trust me, I know. I have a backyard in Southern Louisiana.

 

[Hidden In Him]

@Backlit
@Hidden In Him

Hello there,

I quote my post (above) because it was referred to by 'Backlit'.

In Ephesians, I believe that the 'choosing' of God, which took place before the foundation of the world, was not to salvation itself, but to 'the calling' that was being revealed to them in that Epistle, and the other epistles written by Paul, from prison at that time. Which was to the church which is His (Christ's) body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all. The calling which would heal the rent caused by the departure of Israel into the blindness of unbelief at Acts 28, and draw them together, both Jew and Gentile believer into one united and equal body, with Christ as their Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I would agree with this, Charity, only I would widen the scope of "calling" to their individual callings in Christ as believers as well. Ultimately when we are selected out by God, He has a purpose in mind for every one of us. Our Job is to find out what that calling and ministry is, and walk in it.